Holy Paly - Raid cooldown status

[mcbubble]

First off, I want to point out - IT HAS BEGUN:
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00000000111111
Paladins are now 2nd to last (poor resto shammies) in 25m heroic.

Oh well...
I looked at our raid's though-put tonight and here's the breakdown in our heals:
Druid: 35% rejuv; 21.5% tranq (oh, and on Jin'Rokh it was Wild Mushroom: 41.7% heals)
Holy Priest: 21.6 Echo of Light; 18.2% Divine Hymn
RShammie: Healing Rain 22.7%; Healing Stream Totem 17.0%; Healing Tide 12.5%
Monk (an alt, so not the best example): Renewing Mist: 30.8%; Uplift 23.4%; Revivial 9.9%
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ne/?enc=bosses (there's the link).

If you look at some boss kills, their CDs were their #1 heal. No joke.

Here's what kills me: Every healer but the holy paladin has a throughput spell. One cast.
Now I know disc doesn't - but their class does if they went holy (they're on top by far anyway).
Here's what kills me:

What do we get? AM. I know we have other CDs but our main raid CD is AM. Don't get me wrong - AM is amazing...but I'm sorry - I also think we need a raid thoughput CD.

Here's why: I work my ass off all raid, and I see a one button click from another healer ROCKET their HPS past mine.
I know...I know - HPS isn't everything. Well, some of us really enjoy being competitive in a HPS format.

These new CDs have me really depressed. Not liking 5.3 that much

[Regen]

I know you're talking about raid cooldowns, but don't forget you have AW and DI...20% stronger heals and 30% "faster" aren't bad things. But I do agree, the strength of Tranquility and the likes are much nicer.

[mcbubble]

Most healers have a thoughput CD as well.
I know our toolkit - I'm just unhappy with our raid CD.

For thoughput - I usually use 2:
Divine Favor + Holy Avenger
followed by:
Avenging Wrath + Guardian
Then we have HA up again.
It's by no means a raid CD and nowhere near as strong as other healers...and it's not a one click like the other healers.
Again, QQ tears are being shed...but I'm currently very unhappy with our present healing style.

[Verdell]

I get into this discussion with my other healers all the time. Their healing CD are part of their healing tool kit. That means it's built as such to be a part of their healing by design. This is why Paladins are usually very strong every tier. We do not have a healing CD like this and our tool kit is designed to make up for that.

The problem now is that set bonuses and inflated stats have made the spec's tool kit MUCH better than specs with a healing CD and as such, many (MANY) people cried foul.

So what happened? Nerf!

Now, I am the first to admit that some nerfing was needed, but there could have been a happy median to that as well. Reduce mastery but gives us a base CD on HS of 5 secs (since every competitive pally was using 4 set T14 with a 4 sec CD). I really thought I was going to see that with 5.3 and the T14 4 set changed.

Like I posted in another thread, the Holy tool kit needs to be refitted. Beacon + Holy Power just don't feel right now. I can't speak for 10 mans, but building to spam HR + HR + HS to stay competitive seems like T13 all over again. I see another healing style change for Holy in 6.0.

That's what, 4 in 4 xpacs? Love feeling like I have to learn a new class every box I buy.

[Exac]

Are you telling me that you are unable to Pop wings, trinket, AW & GoAK and then put down Light's Hammer and some mean Eternal flames that hit for 140k/tick? All while healing the beacon target? If that isn't overpowered I don't know what is, aside from Ring of Peace.

[Peachpies]

Are you telling me that you are unable to Pop wings, trinket, AW & GoAK and then put down Light's Hammer and some mean Eternal flames that hit for 140k/tick? All while healing the beacon target? If that isn't overpowered I don't know what is, aside from Ring of Peace.

the data says no

[Ethes]

Where I agree with you and the other classes have these big raid cd's as an important part of their healing breakdown, us holy paladins have this stupid mastery. It doesn't require us to do anything different and yet it is THE biggest heal we use (33% for illuminated healing in the logs you linked!).

Generally I don't like the position holy paladins are in much. It's all about the mastery, piece of crap stat!

[Deleted]

You can't expect to get close to output healers with a powerful ehp toolkit.

[Cairhiin]

You can't expect to get close to output healers with a powerful ehp toolkit.

We can when those other healers also do 60-70k dps, while we do 500 dps.

[Terridon]

It's only 25 man HC they look lackluster, but might as well just be first week and people having to adjust a bit to not being as strong as before.
The rest of the raids they're about even with the other healers, ranking no 3 mostly.

[Deleted]

We can when those other healers also do 60-70k dps, while we do 500 dps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutually_exclusive_events

[Deleted]

You can't expect to get close to output healers with a powerful ehp toolkit.

Considering how bad Devotion Aura is, Paladins are meant to beat the crap out of every single other healer in the game.

[Deleted]

You're missing something: DA does not appear on healing meters. on a boss like Jin'Rokh on the thunderstorm, you mitigate 11K per player per second for 6 seconds, on EVERY player. it's effectively 275K HPS for those 6 seconds, 1.65M Healing done. you also can keep casting while you got it active, while resto druids and holy priests have to channel.

[Deleted]

Considering how bad Devotion Aura is, Paladins are meant to beat the crap out of every single other healer in the game.

Perhaps then the proper course of action then would be to complain about how you feel you devotion aura is ineffective, instead of thinking you have any place being theoretically better than any pure output healer at pure output?

[Deleted]

Perhaps then the proper course of action then would be to complain about how you feel you devotion aura is ineffective, instead of thinking you have any place being theoretically better than any pure output healer at pure output?

First of all there is no such thing as pure output healers. There is no such thing as support dps.

Second.I've complained about devotion aura countless times and the only thing Blizzard did was boost healing raid cds to 7 mil(10 mil in 5.4) healing done on the mindless assumption that they needed a boost.

---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 03:03 PM ----------

You're missing something: DA does not appear on healing meters. on a boss like Jin'Rokh on the thunderstorm, you mitigate 11K per player per second for 6 seconds, on EVERY player. it's effectively 275K HPS for those 6 seconds, 1.65M Healing done. you also can keep casting while you got it active, while resto druids and holy priests have to channel.

This assumes everyone in the raid takes 55k dps in those 6 seconds. That's just not true for most people. So in reality its less then 1.65m healing done. Second, while you remembered that we can keep casting, you don't remember that monks don't need to keep casting and you also don't remember that casting costs mana when our regen is already the worst.

[Deleted]

First of all there is no such thing as pure output healers. There is no such thing as support dps.

Second.I've complained about devotion aura countless times and the only thing Blizzard did was boost healing raid cds to 7 mil(10 mil in 5.4) healing done on the mindless assumption that they needed a boost.[COLOR="red"]

Not here to argue semantics so let me define the term for you as every healing action being reported on a meter, and can be measured in raw healing done. Pretty obviously not the case for paladins, pretty obviously is the case for holy priests, resto druids, and monks. Paladins have very strong sustained healing, and a heck lot of utility.

Anyway, I obviously disagree that paladins are severely underpowered post nerf, and quoting arbitrary theoretical numbers (7 million and 10 million in 5.4? really?) with clear misunderstanding about the shortfalls of other healing cooldowns isn't helping your case. The only thing I've garnered so far from this thread surmounts to, "I know HPS isn't everything, but I really think we're underpowered because we can't be the best at it and keeping people alive."

[Freia]

Are you telling me that you are unable to Pop wings, trinket, AW & GoAK and then put down Light's Hammer and some mean Eternal flames that hit for 140k/tick? All while healing the beacon target? If that isn't overpowered I don't know what is, aside from Ring of Peace.

What? Eternal flame 140k/tic? When? And usually the only time Light's Hammer puts out crazy numbers is when prot does it since it is effected by vengeance.

You can't expect to get close to output healers with a powerful ehp toolkit.

Please explain to me why a paladin should have less output than a monk? Please seriously explain why our heals+absorbs should end up doing less healing than yours in raid environments. Because we have BoP and sac, salv and AM? So does every other paladin. Have them do it and bring healers that heal more. Need more absorbs. Bring in disc priests. Who can bring some dps at the same time. You are not entitled to more healing.

[Deleted]

Are you telling me that you are unable to Pop wings, trinket, AW & GoAK and then put down Light's Hammer and some mean Eternal flames that hit for 140k/tick? All while healing the beacon target? If that isn't overpowered I don't know what is, aside from Ring of Peace.

I would like to know what trinkets you are talking about because there are no real throughput trinkets and have not been any activate trinkets for a very long time.

Guardian is complete trash and is the throughput cd that should be compared to tranq, divine hymn, ht and revival. The AoE heal part of guardian does about the same amount of healing as a HR but is not affected by mastery. The guardian itself is infact so bad in 25 man that I use it for the haste buff and nothing else really.

I really hope they stay away from denounce (dont want to be like disc priests) and buff something else instead. Preferably make HS cd scale with haste so we can keep the HR HR HS EF rotation without having to wait for the HS cd (something I noticed on ra-den last week when DF and/or Heroism is active). Obviously a change like that would not be enough as it only helps during haste cooldowns, we would also need a buff to something else like guardian which is currently being used for all the wrong reasons (in 25 atleast). I also noticed that daybreak is insanely strong when it does not overheal so maybe if they made that a smart heal it would help a lot.

[mcbubble]

Are you telling me that you are unable to Pop wings, trinket, AW & GoAK and then put down Light's Hammer and some mean Eternal flames that hit for 140k/tick? All while healing the beacon target? If that isn't overpowered I don't know what is, aside from Ring of Peace.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm a pretty competent healer (play all 4 classes in fact, and pretty well).
My point is: The Druid/Priest/Shammy and especially Monk 'one button' throughput CD's got buffed a little too much.
It's disappointing to see us work so hard with our lousy toolkit to watch another class YOLO by pressing one button which then becomes their #2 or #3 hps ability.

[Freia]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm a pretty competent healer (play all 4 classes in fact, and pretty well).
My point is: The Druid/Priest/Shammy and especially Monk 'one button' throughput CD's got buffed a little too much.
It's disappointing to see us work so hard with our lousy toolkit to watch another class YOLO by pressing one button which then becomes their #2 or #3 hps ability.

You should be saying that. I am pretty sure the only time our EF healed for 140k/tic is on Tsulong(more on that fight likely).

Shamans 1 button healing cooldowns were actually not buffed.