How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Floopa]

It's the new world, give players what they want, ramming your vision down their throats isn't good for business.

Players don't know what they want. DS was ridiculously easy. People complained. People hated the old LFR looting system so they made it 100% fair. People complain. People will always complain. Blizzard should just listen to the people who are actually happy and content with the game and design the game around their wishes. Which, fortunately, means normal raiding difficulty is staying as is or, at the very least, only going to get more difficult.

[Osmeric]

If normal modes were buffed we would see a higher level of player in this game and right now the game is bleeding

The game is bleeding because they made normal modes harder. Your suggestion would make the problem even worse. It's the exact opposite of the proper course of action.

[Floopa]

The game is bleeding because they made normal modes harder. Your suggestion would make the problem even worse. It's the exact opposite of the proper course of action.

If 10 mans are made easier then they'll eventually need to drop the item level of the gear in 10 mans which means anyone who was raiding 10 mans for the loot aspect ( as well as friends, family etc) will be shafted all because a small minority of players cannot be arsed to learn how to dodge fire while doing a semi-optimal DPS rotation. Normal modes are staying as they are, or getting harder. That's the reality of the situation (if there even is one, which I'm not sure that there is).

[Osmeric]

If 10 mans are made easier then they'll eventually need to drop the item level of the gear in 10 mans .

Why would they have to do that? I mean, what law of man or nature requires that action?

[Deleted]

The game is bleeding because they made normal modes harder. Your suggestion would make the problem even worse. It's the exact opposite of the proper course of action.

No the game is bleeding because its old and people are losing interest, raiding is just one part of the game it isnt the core-stone.

[Floopa]

Why would they have to do that? I mean, what law of man or nature requires that action?

See Cataclysm and the destruction of 25 man guilds for reference.

[Kiqjaq]

You know that this is a video game right?

You shut your whore mouth!

[HeedmySpeed]

I think you started to play in Cata It wasn't always like this. There were better times. But what was once laughed and frowned upon (some raiding guilds' attitude) is now supported by current raid design. Too bad that Blizzard pretends to ignore it and prefers to listen to people who are seemingly 5-manning raids in blues and doing full raid clears in pug.

Too bad that in reality they can't 5-men raids, otherwise they wouldn't be saying that recruitment is hard. Why do they even complain about recruitment? They can 5-men raids in blues, it is so easy. They can pug full raid clears. They shouldn't complain about recruitment (lol they don't even really know how hard it is to do recruitment on any non-top server now).

People are people. Assholes exists everywhere. My last raid leader was the chillest dude you could ever meet. He would laugh when he tried to be harsh. Overall, if you do your job, spot your mistake, fix it, you shouldn't be having many problems with people.

It's not much to ask.

And you're an idiot if you think Blizzard condones negative behavior in raids. They don't support it at all they just act indifferently and let the community handle itself which some can (like I have learned to deal with AKA mute or a nice STFU speech) and others can't (like you and you're need for mommy Blizz to come in and punish your sibling).

And if it's hard to recruit on high population servers then wouldn't it be a worse situation on lower servers?
So... wtf are you talking about? You kind of argued against yourself.

[khalamo]

I don't understand all the complains regarding difficulty.

TOT is much easier than HoF. One of the groups in my guild that was straggling with Amber shaper and barely killed Sha of fear in last week of 5.1 is now at Lei Shen and they still have plenty of time to kill him before 5.4 hits. Meaning they will probably do some heroics whereas it was impossible for them in last content.

I do not want lower difficulty in 10man nor I want lower ilvl loot. I think the gap in skill is higher than in previous expacks since you do not have to read about your talent trees and builds so people just hop into action and then it appears they can't play. While game is more appealing for casual players it also makes people more lazy.

The gap should be handled by making LFRs a bit harder so that some guilds actually raid in LFRs. I also think the player limit in LFR should be closer to 10 than 25. Right now its easier than randon dungeons. If you go to LFR people don't even want to read the tactics/journal or do anything. They want free loot. Making it harder and more group oriented would mean that if you wanna do LFRs you actually gotta care a bit or the group will kick you. If they were for example 15man or something. The guild goes with 11 people and they get 4 randoms. The interest for all people there is to clear it. If you are afking all the time and ignore mechanics the group will kick you cause its easier to spot and they have more power. Nowadays I think on average you get 10% people afking on LFRs - which is super annoying.

[D4NNYB0Y]

You shut your whore mouth!

But...but...my opinions. ;_;

[Osmeric]

See Cataclysm and the destruction of 25 man guilds for reference.

What? This makes no sense whatsoever.

[Floopa]

What? This makes no sense whatsoever.

25 man > 10 man in difficulty but 25 man = 10 man in loot difference.

Why would anyone want to run 25 man when it's harder and provides no clear advantage? Blizzard addressed this issue in MoP. 10 mans are on the same difficulty as 25 man.

[D4NNYB0Y]

No the game is bleeding because its old and people are losing interest, raiding is just one part of the game it isnt the core-stone.

Age is an excuse for a game updated as frequently as WoW. It's also one of WoW's biggest advantages and one of the reasons often cited that it cannot be overtaken by newer MMOs: they can't compete with a game that has had over 8 years to grow and develop.

Blizzard spends a disproportionate amount of resources on raiding given the number of subscribers that actually raid. It's not sustainable.

[Deleted]

Blizzard spends a disproportionate amount of resources on raiding given the number of subscribers that actually raid. It's not sustainable.

You know how much of the budget for advertising like nike spend on NBA/Champions League games etc considering how small part of the people playing Basket/Soccer play in those leagues.

In any business, spending disproportionate amount of money at the top makes sense.

[Osmeric]

25 man > 10 man in difficulty but 25 man = 10 man in loot difference.

Why would anyone want to run 25 man when it's harder and provides no clear advantage? Blizzard addressed this issue in MoP. 10 mans are on the same difficulty as 25 man.

Your original suggestion was buffing normal modes, and my response was that they should actually be nerfed. Nowhere in that was there a restriction to 10 man. So, clearly 25 man would be nerfed right along with 10 man.

---------- Post added 2013-06-05 at 03:55 PM ----------

You know how much of the budget for advertising like nike spend on NBA/Champions League games etc considering how small part of the people playing Basket/Soccer play in those leagues.

In any business, spending disproportionate amount of money at the top makes sense.

This is a ridiculous analogy, since professional sports is an entertainment product where the lion's share of revenue comes from spectators watching a tiny number of players. This is completely unlike the MMO model, where masses of amateur players are the revenue source.

[Floopa]

Your original suggestion was buffing normal modes, and my response was that they should actually be nerfed. Nowhere in that was there a restriction to 10 man. So, clearly 25 man would be nerfed right along with 10 man.

---------- Post added 2013-06-05 at 03:55 PM ----------



This is a ridiculous analogy, since professional sports is an entertainment product where the lion's share of revenue comes from spectators watching a tiny number of players. This is completely unlike the MMO model, where masses of amateur players are the revenue source.

Blizzard wouldn't dare nerf 25 man. Nerfing both modes would result in HC eventually getting nerfed and we both know Blizzard would -never- nerf heroic content. If anything they're going to make heroic content harder.

[Osmeric]

Blizzard wouldn't dare nerf 25 man. Nerfing both modes would result in HC eventually getting nerfed and we both know Blizzard would -never- nerf heroic content. If anything they're going to make heroic content harder.

So, we're ruling out that possibility without actual justification? Good to know the ground rules of debate here.

Any other arguments I should just discard at your whim?

[Floopa]

So, we're ruling out that possibility without actual justification? Good to know the ground rules of debate here.

Any other arguments I should just discard at your whim?

The silly notion that Blizzard are going to, again, cater to the most undeserving.

[Deleted]

This is a ridiculous analogy, since professional sports is an entertainment product where the lion's share of revenue comes from spectators watching a tiny number of players. This is completely unlike the MMO model, where masses of amateur players are the revenue source.

And videos like lk25hc got almost 2 million views on youtube. Obviously more people than heroic raiders are aware of heroic raids.
Not to mention all the people that watch streams of heroic raids.

People need a goal, something to chase. Having no endgame for people to strive after makes no sense.

[D4NNYB0Y]

You know how much of the budget for advertising like nike spend on NBA/Champions League games etc considering how small part of the people playing Basket/Soccer play in those leagues.

In any business, spending disproportionate amount of money at the top makes sense.

Heroic raids aren't advertising. They serve no purpose other than satiating a very small portion of the playerbase. A big part of the reason they exist at all is because of several of the lead developers' own raiding experiences. It's a classic example of a developer designing a game for themselves rather than their playerbase. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your perspective), it's not sustainable anymore.

The game is losing subscribers at an alarming rate, and before anyone says, "the majority of the sub losses were from China" Blizzard, like any business, was intentionally vague to spin the numbers as favorably as possible to their investors. A majority could have been 99.99% or 50.01%. I imagine if it had been close to the former they would have just said that as it sounds much better to investors.

---------- Post added 2013-06-05 at 04:05 PM ----------

And videos like lk25hc got almost 2 million views on youtube. Obviously more people than heroic raiders are aware of heroic raids.
Not to mention all the people that watch streams of heroic raids.

People need a goal, something to chase. Having no endgame for people to strive after makes no sense.

That video could have just as easily been watched by gamers playing 100 different games.