WotLK to MoP: A Trend Analysis of Raiding Difficulty.

[Deleted]

I think you need to read the post again. Time, as a variable, is accounted for. The numbers provided by DisposableHero are based upon the two-month model that (though imperfect) shoots this argument out of the water.

Yet the numbers in DisposableHeroes post shows nothing to indicate an increasing difficulty, if anything the opposite. Also, as we do not know the current sub numbers, and especially since we do not know the amount of players with a max level character, cant be looked at with 100% accuracy.

You're assuming people are still to reach Jin'rokh - his kills aren't climbing particularly quickly, which implies (obviously I could be wrong) that people have sacked off normal raiding before ever pulling him.

Thought you would have understood this by now after watching so much kill stats. This is something that happens every tier. The longer you get into the tier, the larger % of guilds that actually want to raid normals, have started with normals. Of course the kills on the first boss is gonna drop off in comparison to the next bosses.

The reason that only 8% of guilds had killed Lich King after 3 months of ICC, and 57% of the guilds have killed him is not because people sacked off normal raiding before ever pulling marrowgar. It was because after a while, there are simply no (or almost no) new guilds getting into raiding.
In fact, after the first month, a majority of the new guilds are either namechanged or server/faction changed guilds, guilds that disbanded and reformed, not actual new guilds.

This is why looking at any data after 1/2 months is highly irrelevant. Also the reason your entire first OP fell flat on its belly. The longer a tier is out, the higher the kill % of all bosses become, and if one tier has been out for 18 months and another 3 months, go figure which tier is gonna have the highest kill %.

If you compare ToT kills with a few weeks ago, and check how much the kills of each boss increased.

Jin: +750
Hor: +950
Coun: +1100
Tort: +1100
Mega: +1100
Ji-Kun: +1200
Durumu: +1200
Prim: +1100
Animus: +1000
IQ: +1000
Twins: +1000
LS: +950

What this tells you is not that people are failing on Jin'Rokh is increasing. Rather it tells you that the amount of new guilds is smaller than the amount of progressing guilds. Which is only logical over 3 months into a tier.
What is also to note is that a +950 on kills is a much higher % increase in kills relative to say +1200 on Ji-Kun. This is the reason why the kill % goes up and we can likely to expect a 50-60 kill% on LS before 5.4

[araine]

There is 8900 guilds at 12/12, not 5500.

That is exactly why cleaning %, especially looking at a moving success rate (i.e. the average success rate between each boss) is competely relevant since it shows the successrate between each individual boss.

May I also ask you were you got this mighty fine number that you just pulled out of your ass that there should be a 1:5 / 1:10 ratio between 1/13 hc and 12/12 normal.

That would have the need to make the easiest heroic boss (due to non-linear progression), relatively 25-100% harder than Lei-Shen Heroic, 400-900% harder than horridon is for 1/12 guilds.

I mean, please, I would love to hear the logic between a 1:5 ratio, and why that is healthy.

Dont include those that are in heroic content as they are not a normal mode guild they are heroic mode guilds

I did NOT say 1-5 ratio between 1/13H and 12/12N you exactly high light the problem 1900 guilds sitting at 12/12 and 7000 ahead of it 12/12 is just the unlock mechanism for heroics since all normal mode guilds have basically been killed off right now you proved it yourself with your 8900 number when we filter away the 7000+ that have already entered heroics with success. we have almost the exact same number of guilds that are at 12/12 as that are 5/13H or better. for anyone that actually cares to look upon the numbers you can see we are getting a very unhealthy top 1% and they whine like romney about the other 47%

there is 5500 guilds at 12/12 or on path to reach 12/12 in this tier if you raid heroics which you do if you have downed heroic bosses you are NOT a normal mode raiding guild regardless of how you pull it out of my ass as you think you needed to resort to when you runned out of arguments

---------- Post added 2013-06-07 at 12:10 AM ----------

Yet the numbers in DisposableHeroes post shows nothing to indicate an increasing difficulty, if anything the opposite. Also, as we do not know the current sub numbers, and especially since we do not know the amount of players with a max level character, cant be looked at with 100% accuracy.





Thought you would have understood this by now after watching so much kill stats. This is something that happens every tier. The longer you get into the tier, the larger % of guilds that actually want to raid normals, have started with normals. Of course the kills on the first boss is gonna drop off in comparison to the next bosses.

The reason that only 8% of guilds had killed Lich King after 3 months of ICC, and 57% of the guilds have killed him is not because people sacked off normal raiding before ever pulling marrowgar. It was because after a while, there are simply no (or almost no) new guilds getting into raiding.
In fact, after the first month, a majority of the new guilds are either namechanged or server/faction changed guilds, guilds that disbanded and reformed, not actual new guilds.

This is why looking at any data after 1/2 months is highly irrelevant. Also the reason your entire first OP fell flat on its belly. The longer a tier is out, the higher the kill % of all bosses become, and if one tier has been out for 18 months and another 3 months, go figure which tier is gonna have the highest kill %.

If you compare ToT kills with a few weeks ago, and check how much the kills of each boss increased.

Jin: +750
Hor: +950
Coun: +1100
Tort: +1100
Mega: +1100
Ji-Kun: +1200
Durumu: +1200
Prim: +1100
Animus: +1000
IQ: +1000
Twins: +1000
LS: +950

What this tells you is not that people are failing on Jin'Rokh is increasing. Rather it tells you that the amount of new guilds is smaller than the amount of progressing guilds. Which is only logical over 3 months into a tier.
What is also to note is that a +950 on kills is a much higher % increase in kills relative to say +1200 on Ji-Kun. This is the reason why the kill % goes up and we can likely to expect a 50-60 kill% on LS before 5.4

Keep dreaming last tier saw BEFORE 5.2 shipped out 24 guilds finishing 16/16N or better today we have 17 guilds that have moved beyond 1/12NORMAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so you honestly think another 6-7 weeks of this tier ( which is what we have left statistically) will make us see 24 guilds go 12/12 NORMAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or better really you honestly think the magic will happen and that we will get all those that are still at 1/12 to reach 12/12 in less than 2 months ( which is all you got left of this tier at the most really we have pasted the 1/2 point already this tier weeks ago. this tier is winding down 5.4 will hit the PTR any day now this tier is almost finished.

---------- Post added 2013-06-07 at 12:21 AM ----------

I feel bad for missing this comment; my apologies.

Essentially, I think you're on to something. Normal mode completions rates are, for me, not really much to do with "seeing the content" because, as you rightly state, there's an easier way to do that for those who aren't interested. The problem we have is that guilds can't progress, and LFR isn't a substitute because that's just not what it was designed for. This is why I've mentioned the argument that LFR is needed if you want more raids to a couple of people; it just looks flat out bogus. During WotLK, when normal raids were easier, those who legitimately wanted to see raiding content could do so. LFR was born, specifically, because Cataclysm's raid content was too hard for everyone who wanted to raid, and those players dumped out needed somewhere to go.

Just take a look at what goes on in LFR. It's horrible. A relatively fair and simple idea has been butchered because Blizzard decided it wasn't just going to be an opportunity for players to get into raiding and see some content, they decided it was part of the progression chain and only frustration has ensued since. It's legitimate audience, those who've never really raided and want to see what it's all about have seen frustrated people who'd like to raid but can't slammed in there with them, while the tier, weapon and trinket drops further exasperate this by putting in those who are clearing normal modes and have no business in it.

It's an undeniable fact that people are running LFR who do not want to be running it. That means its design intention is a bust, and Blizzard are shoving too many people into the queue.


Come on - that's got absolutely nothing to do with the point he was making.

He was making the point that if we chop off 50% of the elevation of everest we are left with a tiny hill that anyone can climb, what my post points out is that the elevation is not a factor in difficulty which he insinuated in the reference of cutting the elevation in half. The Eiger at way less than 1/2 the elevation of most peaks in the Himalayas proves elevation is not a good tool to measure difficulty.

[Deleted]

Dont include those that are in heroic content as they are not a normal mode guild they are heroic mode guilds

I did NOT say 1-5 ratio between 1/13H and 12/12N you exactly high light the problem 1900 guilds sitting at 12/12 and 7000 ahead of it 12/12 is just the unlock mechanism for heroics since all normal mode guilds have basically been killed off right now you proved it yourself with your 8900 number when we filter away the 7000+ that have already entered heroics with success. we have almost the exact same number of guilds that are at 12/12 as that are 5/13H or better. for anyone that actually cares to look upon the numbers you can see we are getting a very unhealthy top 1% and they whine like romney about the other 47%

there is 5500 guilds at 12/12 or on path to reach 12/12 in this tier if you raid heroics which you do if you have downed heroic bosses you are NOT a normal mode raiding guild regardless of how you pull it out of my ass as you think you needed to resort to when you runned out of arguments

Ehr? What the?... I dont know if I am understanding you correct, but you presume that any normal mode guild that reaches 12/12 normal will stop raiding.
"Thats it guys! We cleared normals lets wait for T16!", or what?

Of course you need to include heroic mode guilds in the data, as normal is a requirement for heroic.
Heroic mode guilds has been raiding normals since heroic first came out, and it has been included in all other tiers contents data.
Why the f would you not include it in T15 only?

And yes, did you forget what you said yourself.

A healthy level of completion vs folks 1/13H should be 1 to 5 ratio at least perhaps even moving up towards 1 to 10 ratio but lets work with 1 to 5 ratio as a start it would mean we would have 35k guilds give or take that would reach 12/12 before the tier is over. and today we got 27k guilds with a registered 1/12 or better

That is exactly what you said, a 1 to 5 ratio between heroic content and 12/12. You said that since there are 7k guild in HC content 35k guilds at 12/12 would be reasonable. (or in other words, 28000 guilds being stuck on 12/12 unable to reach 1/13).

I mean, honestly, I do not know what to reply since you are not making any sense.

Keep dreaming last tier saw BEFORE 5.2 shipped out 24 guilds finishing 16/16N or better today we have 17 guilds that have moved beyond 1/12NORMAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so you honestly think another 6-7 weeks of this tier ( which is what we have left statistically) will make us see 24 guilds go 12/12 NORMAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or better really you honestly think the magic will happen and that we will get all those that are still at 1/12 to reach 12/12 in less than 2 months ( which is all you got left of this tier at the most really we have pasted the 1/2 point already this tier weeks ago. this tier is winding down 5.4 will hit the PTR any day now this tier is almost finished.

Not trying to sound douchy or anything. But I have no idea what you are saying.

[Deleted]

Jesus Zell that must have taken ages.

[araine]

Ehr? What the?... I dont know if I am understanding you correct, but you presume that any normal mode guild that reaches 12/12 normal will stop raiding.
"Thats it guys! We cleared normals lets wait for T16!", or what?

Of course you need to include heroic mode guilds in the data, as normal is a requirement for heroic.
Heroic mode guilds has been raiding normals since heroic first came out, and it has been included in all other tiers contents data.
Why the f would you not include it in T15 only?

And yes, did you forget what you said yourself.



That is exactly what you said, a 1 to 5 ratio between heroic content and 12/12. You said that since there are 7k guild in HC content 35k guilds at 12/12 would be reasonable. (or in other words, 28000 guilds being stuck on 12/12 unable to reach 1/13).

I mean, honestly, I do not know what to reply since you are not making any sense.



Not trying to sound douchy or anything. But I have no idea what you are saying.

Again you failed to read what it actually says let me quote it for you again ""that would reach 12/12 before the tier is over."" see i never said anything about 12/12 at the current state as you imply, And heroic and normal needs to be looked upon as separate events since if we dont we can do a case where we have a grand total of 20k guilds and 19.5k of them are in heroic and use that 19.5k as the excuse to say normal is fine see how many are in heroic normal is too easy blah blah. when the fact is you have killed off every normal guild in this case they stopped to exist since normal was a brickwall for them.

But i know you will view that 19.5k in heroic as evidence that normal is trivial and needs to be buffed up and made a hell of a lot more difficult.

[Deleted]

Again you failed to read what it actually says let me quote it for you again ""that would reach 12/12 before the tier is over."" see i never said anything about 12/12 at the current state as you imply, And heroic and normal needs to be looked upon as separate events since if we dont we can do a case where we have a grand total of 20k guilds and 19.5k of them are in heroic and use that 19.5k as the excuse to say normal is fine see how many are in heroic normal is too easy blah blah. when the fact is you have killed off every normal guild in this case they stopped to exist since normal was a brickwall for them.

But i know you will view that 19.5k in heroic as evidence that normal is trivial and needs to be buffed up and made a hell of a lot more difficult.

In ICC, 50800 guilds killed marrowgar in heroic and 48000 guilds killed LK normal.

This would mean that ICC10 normals is the hardest normals ever created in the history of WoW by your logic, since not even HEROIC GUILDS can beat them!

Seriously! How hard would normals have to be when heroic guilds cant even beat them!

Better not! Check gunship kills! 71500 kills in Heroic. 48000 kills on LK still. So only 67% of all heroic guilds was able to beat normal T10! It must have been the hardest tier ever created if we go by your logic...

How fucked up does normals have to be when not even heroic guilds beat them

Do you see understand now?

[araine]

In ICC, 50800 guilds killed marrowgar in heroic and 48000 guilds killed LK normal.

This would mean that ICC10 normals is the hardest normals ever created in the history of WoW by your logic, since not even HEROIC GUILDS can beat them!

Seriously! How hard would normals have to be when heroic guilds cant even beat them!

Better not! Check gunship kills! 71500 kills in Heroic. 48000 kills on LK still. So only 67% of all heroic guilds was able to beat normal T10! It must have been the hardest tier ever created if we go by your logic...

How fucked up does normals have to be when not even heroic guilds beat them

Do you see understand now?

Obviously you know you have lost the arguments of normals right now being easier than ever, heck not even Blizzard agrees with you and the new major feature is addressing the exact problem we have been pointing on for a while that some are to stubborn to accept that it exist. You obviously missed the point again that i was making ( which you always seem to do) the key issue is that there is right now so much damn blood on the brickwall in ToT that you cant see it anymore i got it. but trust us the brickwall is there and it is very real for thousands of mom and pop guilds this tier.

And you frequently use clearing percentage are as good as ever blah blah blah blah as validation of your claims that normal mode is not to hard it is the easiest normal modes ever blah blah blah blah. the 20k guilds and 19.5k of them hammering out heroic bosses at various degrees you obviously missed the point where the thing is 500 guilds left only doing normal modes since all the other thousands upon thousands just tossed in the towel months ago and gave up smashing the head on the brickwall, You obviously missed that.

[Mormolyce]

I find this honestly rather funny. On the one hand you insist that it's not difficult but now you also say well it's subjective.... can you honestly not see how insanely ironic that is? Remember the part about ants and humans?

I've been both an "ant" and a "human" and what I'm telling you is that NMs really aren't that hard, in game terms. They may SEEM hard depending on what kind of raid team you're with. If I'd been in my current guild in T11 no doubt I'd have cleared NM Nef in week 1 as well.

[Deleted]

And you frequently use clearing percentage are as good as ever blah blah blah blah as validation of your claims that normal mode is not to hard it is the easiest normal modes ever blah blah blah blah. the 20k guilds and 19.5k of them hammering out heroic bosses at various degrees you obviously missed the point where the thing is 500 guilds left only doing normal modes since all the other thousands upon thousands just tossed in the towel months ago and gave up smashing the head on the brickwall, You obviously missed that.

How about you make some sense? Since currently you make none.

---------- Post added 2013-06-07 at 02:52 AM ----------

Obviously you know you have lost the arguments of normals right now being easier than ever, heck not even Blizzard agrees with you and the new major feature is addressing the exact problem we have been pointing on for a while that some are to stubborn to accept that it exist. You obviously missed the point again that i was making ( which you always seem to do) the key issue is that there is right now so much damn blood on the brickwall in ToT that you cant see it anymore i got it. but trust us the brickwall is there and it is very real for thousands of mom and pop guilds this tier.

To me it seems like you are the ones that lost them now that you realised how stupid your previous comparison was, as you completely gave up defending it. Lovely that you agree with me atleast that ICC is the hardest tier ever, since with both my method and your method, ICC was far harder than T15.

[araine]

How about you make some sense? Since currently you make none.

---------- Post added 2013-06-07 at 02:52 AM ----------



To me it seems like you are the ones that lost them now that you realised how stupid your previous comparison was, as you completely gave up defending it. Lovely that you agree with me atleast that ICC is the hardest tier ever, since with both my method and your method, ICC was far harder than T15.

i never said ICC was the hardest but you keep on twisting words to fit your agenda. and NOWHERE have i backtracked from a point i have made.

ICC had case bosses in heroic that was LOOT PINATAS and grossly undertuned think lootship. Normal LK was harder than heroic Lootship no question about it heck you can make the case that heroic lootship was the 2nd easiest boss in the instance right after normal lootship. there is a reason i was selling unlocks back in the days since LK normal was so much harder than heroic version of Lootship.

You can NOT take those numbers and make the case that you think you can just cant do.

[Deleted]

You can NOT take those numbers and make the case that you think you can just cant do.

Likewise.

You entire assumption falls flat on that you think HC Jin'rokh is harder than LS normal.

And well, actually you said that ICC is the hardest instance, since apparently taking normal mode kills - heroic mode kills is a valid thing to do according to you, and then assuming that there should be 500% more guilds on 12/12 normal compared to 1/13 HC. Which gotta be one of the most absurd statements I have ever heard.

[araine]

Likewise.

You entire assumption falls flat on that you think HC Jin'rokh is harder than LS normal.

And well, actually you said that ICC is the hardest instance, since apparently taking normal mode kills - heroic mode kills is a valid thing to do according to you, and then assuming that there should be 500% more guilds on 12/12 normal compared to 1/13 HC. Which gotta be one of the most absurd statements I have ever heard.

Never said anything about jin'rokh and the difficulty of him what i have been pointing out since day one is we have a very very unhealty decline in the amount of guilds getting shit done in normal and that is a great concern for the future and to that all we hear is crush and remove LFR and L2P neither of which will actually address the issue at hand.

You have constantly failed to understand that normal mode have in this tier moved more and more towards becoming just the unlock the heroic content and that guilds that actual will end up getting to 12/12 in the last few weeks of this tier is in shockingly steep decline compared to previous tiers. If you cant see that this is unhealthy for the longterm strength of the game to basically have endgame raiding content for guilds that basically only cater to the

Elite and the super elites. which is what we will approach if we move the current tiers problem further another 3-4 tiers we will end up with 40k guilds tossed to the side since they just arent good enough to be among the elite and allowed to do things with a guild and be happy about it to have a reasonable expectation to reach the end of the instance in 4-5 months. Right now you have to be delusional if you think the 24 guilds that went 16/16N in last tier BEFORE 5.2 came out will also get to 12/12N since right now only 17 guilds have managed 2/12 or better and a handful of those that went 16/16N have folded and are gone right now since there is only so much banging your head on a wall for no gain that folks will tolerate and 90 days of it no lots of people didnt last that long.

---------- Post added 2013-06-07 at 05:44 AM ----------

Likewise.

You entire assumption falls flat on that you think HC Jin'rokh is harder than LS normal.

And well, actually you said that ICC is the hardest instance, since apparently taking normal mode kills - heroic mode kills is a valid thing to do according to you, and then assuming that there should be 500% more guilds on 12/12 normal compared to 1/13 HC. Which gotta be one of the most absurd statements I have ever heard.

Obviously you missed where i said lootship on heroic was probably the 2nd easiest boss in there #2 to regular mode lootship. you frequently have a habit of ignoring what is written so i think i am done with you

[Deleted]

Great article I enjoyed reading, we need more of those. The numbers are speaking for themselves: if blizzard gonna keep the direction they are going now it wont end good. Content for 1% of playerbase is bad designed content.

[Tipton]

As can be seen around the forums recently, much has been made of the “gap” between LFR difficulty raiding, and the normal setting on either 10-man or 25-man. The premise is formed on one of two opinions:

1) Normal mode is too hard.
2) LFR and heroic five-man dungeons are too easy.

And Blizzard have finally admitted that this is an issue. Flexi-raids are here to fill the gap (and devastation) left by the introduction of the Cataclysm raiding system.

LFR tried but failed to fill the gap. Now we have Flexi raid.

Not a total move back to the model of Raiding used in Wrath. But admitting that the new system was a mistake - in the only way Blizzard know how - new features.

Also a implicit admission that LFR doesn't fill this niche.

[Kurgosh]

There's no feeder into raiding any more. Used to be, you'd go do dungeons, gets some loot, pug some 10s, maybe the prior tier, gear up, and go into 10s or 25 normals. The gear you got from the prior tier was relevant. Now you do your dungeons, grind rep and valor for 2 months, then get into LFR and somebody tells you that this is what raiding is. Well, LFR is really the replacement for the old 5 player heroic dungeons. You zerg it and collect your loots. But it's labeled as raiding. So when new players try out raiding, this is what they get, a mindless zerg fest where nobody even tries to play well, everybody's in a rush, nobody explains anything, and you all end up with achievements and shiny pixels at the end. If that's raiding, what's the incentive to do it? What's the incentive to get better at it, or learn the boss mechanics or learn your class? It's not fun, it's not engrossing, and it's certainly not a feeder for normal mode raiding.

[Pua]

Yet the numbers in DisposableHeroes post shows nothing to indicate an increasing difficulty, if anything the opposite. Also, as we do not know the current sub numbers, and especially since we do not know the amount of players with a max level character, cant be looked at with 100% accuracy.

Given the staggering drop between WotLK and Cataclysm, it's obvious that raids got harder from that point on because no other explanation regarding the drop off in normal raiders fits. Not even remotely.

You know this.

I'm not sure why you're trying to start that argument.

Again.

The reason that only 8% of guilds had killed Lich King after 3 months of ICC, and 57% of the guilds have killed him is not because people sacked off normal raiding before ever pulling marrowgar. It was because after a while, there are simply no (or almost no) new guilds getting into raiding.

Stop right there.

Why are there no new guilds getting into raiding? Because players are sacking it off, perhaps?

Jin: +750
Hor: +950
Coun: +1100
Tort: +1100
Mega: +1100
Ji-Kun: +1200
Durumu: +1200
Prim: +1100
Animus: +1000
IQ: +1000
Twins: +1000
LS: +950

What this tells you is not that people are failing on Jin'Rokh is increasing. Rather it tells you that the amount of new guilds is smaller than the amount of progressing guilds. Which is only logical over 3 months into a tier.
What is also to note is that a +950 on kills is a much higher % increase in kills relative to say +1200 on Ji-Kun. This is the reason why the kill % goes up and we can likely to expect a 50-60 kill% on LS before 5.4

The fact later bosses are going up by more shows (as you've implied) that less people are bothering to pull him. Let's face it, guilds with reasonable gear aren't going to get stuck on Jin'rokh; if his numbers are going down it's because people aren't pulling it.

He was making the point that if we chop off 50% of the elevation of everest we are left with a tiny hill that anyone can climb, what my post points out is that the elevation is not a factor in difficulty which he insinuated in the reference of cutting the elevation in half. The Eiger at way less than 1/2 the elevation of most peaks in the Himalayas proves elevation is not a good tool to measure difficulty.

That's probably the least relevant comment in the thread, and it's gone on a while.

Firefly's point was that anything difficult, if scaled down significantly, loses prestige. He's right. He only used the "act" of climbing Mount Everest as an EXAMPLE. He could have said winning Wimbledon, qualifying to be in the Royal Marines or joining MENSA.

[Deleted]

The fact later bosses are going up by more shows (as you've implied) that less people are bothering to pull him. Let's face it, guilds with reasonable gear aren't going to get stuck on Jin'rokh; if his numbers are going down it's because people aren't pulling it.

This happens every tier, nothing new. It is not because guilds are not pulling him because they cant kill him or has given up. Simple because the people that want to raid, already is raiding, so there are not enough new guilds pulling him, since there are not enough new guilds this far into a tier.

Stop right there.

Why are there no new guilds getting into raiding? Because players are sacking it off, perhaps?

Think of it like this. When a new raid tier has been released, it is like the start of a sale at a large store, like black friday. Everyone that is currently raiding is racing to get into new tier. To illustrate with a picture.

<snip>

Every raider wants to get a piece of the new raiding.


However, the day after the sale, almost nobody is shopping, since everyone that was shopping was shopping the day(s) before during the sales. Same with raiding 3 months into a tier, the tier is not new anymore, raiders that wanted to raid, already started raiding. Sure, there are some new guilds, but the new guilds after 3 months are a huge minority compared to those already raiding. It would be insane to expect a steady flow of new raiders, it is fairly obvious that there is going to be more new raiders the first month

<snip>

Given the staggering drop between WotLK and Cataclysm, it's obvious that raids got harder from that point on because no other explanation regarding the drop off in normal raiders fits. Not even remotely.

You know this.

I'm not sure why you're trying to start that argument.

Again.

And you know that I disagree on this as I think there is evidence to that. Sure, raiding in Cataclysm got harder than the 30% nerfed ICC, that is given, however I disagree that raids in release state has gotten harder and harder and harder. And you know very well that you got no evidence to support that theory. Even looking at % of sub numbers dropping, even though we do not know the subnumbers, there is no evidence to support that. And looking at subnumbers also makes no sense since that does not tell us how many % of the people are in US/EU, and how many % of people are level 80/85/90, and how many % of people that are actually interested in raiding.

[Pua]

And you know that I disagree on this as I think there is evidence to that. Sure, raiding in Cataclysm got harder than the 30% nerfed ICC, that is given, however I disagree that raids in release state has gotten harder and harder and harder. And you know very well that you got no evidence to support that theory. Even looking at % of sub numbers dropping, even though we do not know the subnumbers, there is no evidence to support that. And looking at subnumbers also makes no sense since that does not tell us how many % of the people are in US/EU, and how many % of people are level 80/85/90, and how many % of people that are actually interested in raiding.

You're entitled to disagree, of course you are, but we've already proven that there is compelling evidence that suggests raiding has become harder, in general, since WotLK; the developer comments and percentage of people raiding each tier show this pretty clearly.

Now, if you'd like to argue that MoP normals haven't really been any harder than those of Cataclysm, I'd concede that. Tier 11 was good because there were so many options along the progression route that if a raid got stuck, they could move to something else and, in general, the difficulty was found later in the instances. Personally, if Throne of Thunder had been less linear I'd accept quite happily that it was the Cataclysm model in more ways than it wasn't.

Come 6.0, however, this is going to be a significantly different issue. The new flexi-raid coming in 5.4 has the potential to change the endgame landscape dramatically.

[Deleted]

You're entitled to disagree, of course you are, but we've already proven that there is compelling evidence that suggests raiding has become harder, in general, since WotLK; the developer comments and percentage of people raiding each tier show this pretty clearly.

You mention your compelling evidence a lot, but I am yet to see it. You mind repeating/link to it?

[Pua]

You mention your compelling evidence a lot, but I am yet to see it. You mind repeating/link to it?

For the seventh or eighth time? Just so you can ignore it all over again and claim it doesn't exist?

I'm utterly done arguing with you; it's become frustrating, dull and pointless. Your intent to go through it all, yet again, is beyond puzzling.