Accessibility and Apathy

[Deleted]

wow hardcore - visits noxxic.com looks up rotation, gems, enchants, etc for maby 20 min spends 10 min on target dummy

wow casual - can't be bothered with anything

If you need to look up guides and need to practice rotations on a training dummy you're probably not that hardcore.

I mean if you're gonna make stupid overgeneralized statements at least try to have them make a tiny bit of sense. Just a tiny bit. Never mind the fact that casual/hardcore might have nothing to do with skill and more to do with time commitment (raid wise), never mind the fact that this has literally nothing to do with this thread... what you listed as hardcore describes something that many elitist hardcore players might consider a casual baddie.

[veehro]

Why? Do you have any reasoning for why lower performance should be punished with a 90% drop in loot chance? Besides "I don't like it when bads get loot" which is... well... such a typically elitist and short sighted approach that plagues any discussions about LFR.

Aply your logic anywhere in life, except wow and you would see just how retarded it sounds.
You should get a smaller paycheck if you work less?
You should get a lower grade if you study less?
You should be in bronze league if you don't play starcraft as much?

Yeah you should get less items if you AFK. in fact you should be kicked. There should be some form of punishment to give people a reason to swim rather then sink. And it is good for the game. It causes people to afk less, it causes them to actualy care about the gameplay.
Every other game punishes you for afking. Imagine if i would log on in dota, afk at the base and then the other 4 people would have to cary me to win.
Heck , I pay the same as every one else right? I diserve that victory, because acording to the wow comunity this is exactly what you want to justify,

[Thorim]

Aply your logic anywhere in life, except wow and you would see just how retarded it sounds.
You should get a smaller paycheck if you work less?
You should get a lower grade if you study less?
You should be in bronze league if you don't play starcraft as much?

Yeah you should get less items if you AFK. in fact you should be kicked. There should be some form of punishment to give people a reason to swim rather then sink. And it is good for the game. It causes people to afk less, it causes them to actualy care about the gameplay.
Every other game punishes you for afking. Imagine if i would log on in dota, afk at the base and then the other 4 people would have to cary me to win.
Heck , I pay the same as every one else right? I diserve that victory, because acording to the wow comunity this is exactly what you want to justify,

WOW is not real life, so your argument kind of falls down right at the first hurdle.

Also, Preach whines about everything, he's an elitist, mocks people on his streams even though he himself isn't exactly amazing.

[veehro]

WOW is not real life, so your argument kind of falls down right at the first hurdle.

Also, Preach whines about everything, he's an elitist, mocks people on his streams even though he himself isn't exactly amazing.

Clearely it's not. It's barely even a video game anymore. There is no effort required to win and you're perfectly OK with it.
I honestly don't know why you don't go watch a movie like lord of the rings, since that's something more up your alley.
You pay some monney and then you diserve to SEE all the "content".

Usualy in video games you do have to get some sort of skill in order to play. Like in team fortress, you need to be able to AIM and MOVE in order to beat the enemy team or get loot.
Failure to do so will result in the comunity flaming and punishing you , untill eventually you learn how to play out of necesity.

Wow does not have the drive to make new players learn how to play. And this is a very bad thing. It means in the future (and its also happening now) more and more guilds will disband. It means less raiders and less subscribers leeding to even fewer guilds and fewer subscribers and so forth.

Why do you want this to be? Why do you think its ok that with no effort, you should have almost the exact thing as some one who puts more efort?

Im not talking about time here. I'm not telling you that they should put back the onyxia chain quest in the game.

Im asking why is it ok for some one to stand in fire, have little knowledge about his class, do 70% bellow the damage he can do with his curent gear, afk during trash and STILL get the same loot?

Why do you defend this?! How will that person improve i ask you? What motivation will he have? How do you plan on keeping him interested in the game after he gets all the loot and there is nothing more for him to do in lfr?

You honestly think he is ready to join a guild? You think he is prepared with the knowledge of what it means to do normal raids?

[Tomana]

I am sorry, I still don't follow you. You are trying to tell me what an awesome business model blizzard has discoverd.
So before I payed 15 euros and had the ability to play on different content every single day of the week, if I choosed so.
How ever now I play the same amount but i am limited in both content (as I can't do previous content) and i'm also unable to play 7 days a week due to the fact that once you clear a raid you have to wait for it to reset.
Wow...great marketing value there!!

Because most people are incapable of playing 7 days a week. You don't do marketing which targets only a tiny minority of players.

And to answer your question, the only reason Iplayed that much was due to the fact of me being a guildmaster. It was my choice.

So was mine, doesn't mean everyone could commit so much time to the game.

Time was NEVER an issue in wow. You never had to play 7 days a week in order to clear content. If that was the case blizzard could of just removed consumables, gems , enchants and repair bills from the game and you would only have to log in for raiding.

Why do you think they streamlined flasks during BC allowing only two?

The problem how ever was SKILL. You did have to focus, know your class and comunicate with other people.

Please. BC was much more about raid composition and gear than skill. Rotations were infinitely simpler (check enhance or warlock rotation now and in BC). It's just that a lot of players were new to the game.

I used to find it hilarious how some people cried that they have no time to play and couldn't progress, while having 10 lvl 70 alts on their account.

I can't comment for them, since I only had 3 (including my old main I stopped playing during BC).

---------- Post added 2013-06-09 at 01:30 PM ----------

Aply your logic anywhere in life, except wow and you would see just how retarded it sounds.
You should get a smaller paycheck if you work less?
You should get a lower grade if you study less?
You should be in bronze league if you don't play starcraft as much?

Look here. WoW is not real life. Most people play MMOs (and other games) to have fun, not to have a second 5-6+ hour workday after their actual workday.
By that logic, I should be paid for playing WoW. Guess what I'm not (and even top guilds' sponsorship doesn't make enough).

[veehro]

Because most people are incapable of playing 7 days a week. You don't do marketing which targets only a tiny minority of players.

Then you get league of legends who releases a champion every 2 weeks. In order to purchase said champion, you should play 7 days a week so that you get 7800 RP. The fact of the matter is RIOT has made one of the most popular games out there and with a player base that rivals wow. Nobody is complaining about the game being easy or having to play 24/7.

So was mine, doesn't mean everyone could commit so much time to the game.

I know WoW requires no skill to play at your level (i honestly doubt you've cleared the last boss heroic mode). But at least put a bit of effort and show me you know how to read and comprehand what you've actualy read. Because I just told you that people were raiding 2-3 days a week and cleared content and somehow you've managed to grasp that.

Please. BC was much more about raid composition and gear than skill. Rotations were infinitely simpler (check enhance or warlock rotation now and in BC). It's just that a lot of players were new to the game.

Just taking archimonde as a random example out of my ass. If one single person in the whole raid made one single mistake it was a wipe. You could of took any single composition you wanted, but if people didn't move out of the fire, if they didn't debuff or if they didn't activate their tears on time you wouldn't of made the boss.
Lady vashj another example that was also a dps check, a comunication check and a skill check. You had to move , do damage while some one was kiting all the while people were throwing the ball around.

I don't have to explain this to you, if you haven't played these encounters before they were nerfed, but any one who has knows that it was all about skill and not how much TIME you've played there.

Once the instance was on farm you would clear it in 2-3 hrs just like you clear today's instances.

Yes you're right, besides skill you did need a raid composition, but again this has nothing to do with TIME played.

Look here. WoW is not real life. Most people play MMOs (and other games) to have fun, not to have a second 5-6+ hour workday after their actual workday.

Dunno what other games besides WoW you're talking about. I've yet to find any other games (besides games for kids) that are rewarding you for afk-ing

[Tomana]

I know WoW requires no skill to play at your level (i honestly doubt you've cleared the last boss heroic mode).

I didn't know Kil'Jaeden had a heroic mode. Must have missed that memo.
Also, my armory is in my signature.

Just taking archimonde as a random example out of my ass. If one single person in the whole raid made one single mistake it was a wipe. You could of took any single composition you wanted, but if people didn't move out of the fire, if they didn't debuff or if they didn't activate their tears on time you wouldn't of made the boss.

OMG, so hard to move out of the fire, oh wait no it's not. The hardest part about Archimonde was not that, but RNG retardation like being feared 2000 yards away with a dot or something in that tune. And that was one of the end bosses of BC.

Lady vashj another example that was also a dps check, a comunication check and a skill check. You had to move , do damage while some one was kiting all the while people were throwing the ball around.

Yes, lady Vashj was complicated. But so is heroic Rag, heroic LK, and heroic Lei Shen. Actually, according to the world first guilds, they are more complicated, and guess what, I believe them. And not you.

I don't have to explain this to you, if you haven't played these encounters before they were nerfed, but any one who has knows that it was all about skill and not how much TIME you've played there.

But I did play them.

Yes you're right, besides skill you did need a raid composition, but again this has nothing to do with TIME played.

No, but it sets another huge entry barrier.

Dunno what other games besides WoW you're talking about. I've yet to find any other games (besides games for kids) that are rewarding you for afk-ing

I dunno, I never saw anyone afk in ToT LFR yet without getting kicked quite fast.

[devilminion]

i afk on my alt every lfr and yet have nvr been kicked. put a active top dps on follow and afk till boss is dead.. IT IS THAT BAD.

[veehro]

I didn't know Kil'Jaeden had a heroic mode. Must have missed that memo.

We are talking about curent wow and the curent hardmodes. Also I really don't care about your armory. You could of ebayed your character for all I know, if you're going to tell me that in TBC it required no skill and only raid composition.




OMG, so hard to move out of the fire, oh wait no it's not. The hardest part about Archimonde was not that, but RNG retardation like being feared 2000 yards away with a dot or something in that tune. And that was one of the end bosses of BC.

Yes, lady Vashj was complicated. But so is heroic Rag, heroic LK, and heroic Lei Shen. Actually, according to the world first guilds, they are more complicated, and guess what, I believe them. And not you.

I never said the heroic content was not complicated. I'm saying that new players have no incentive to do it. And without no new players, there is no suply of new applications flowing in. Thus more guilds disband and more people unsubscribe.
This is what this topic was about, its what the video was about and everebody can follow on it, except people who enjoy "the chalange" LFR has to offer.

But I did play them.

I notice mister "raid composition". Seriously what raid composition did you have to bring to brutalus in order to TRIVIALISE the encounter. Name me the 25 classes youd bring that would have no clue how to sit out of fire and defeat the encounter just because they had the corect set up.

No, but it sets another huge entry barrier.

What does entry barrier have to do with casual players who can't play because they lack the time? This is not what the conversation is about

I dunno, I never saw anyone afk in ToT LFR yet without getting kicked quite fast.

Then you just don't care or are blind. There have been numerous people stating this issue in this topic alone and many other. Even I saw it in the few days I came back to the game.

[Deleted]

I notice mister "raid composition". Seriously what raid composition did you have to bring to brutalus in order to TRIVIALISE the encounter. Name me the 25 classes youd bring that would have no clue how to sit out of fire and defeat the encounter just because they had the corect set up..

- The few mages as possible in favor of more warlocks. Warlock were super strong back then while just spamming shadowbolt, it was never easier to reach 1800+ dps.
-A shadowpriest for every group with mana usage (that's 2-3).
- And dont' forget about glaive rogues over glaive rogues, added with a shaman (windfury, as enhancer totem twisting) and druid/warrior for further buffs.

But i don't think any of it trivialises the fight, having the "right" classes just decreased the burden (rdps requirements) on everyone. We all had enough time to farm the other T6 instances (about half a year for us, way more if you were in a hardcore progression guild. IIRC the top guilds had about a year of gearing up for Sunwell.)

On afk in lfr: as long as you manage to stick on someone and that person doesn't mind you have a good chance not to get kicked. Staying at the instance entrace will probably get you kicked due to some white knights

[Tomana]

We are talking about curent wow and the curent hardmodes. Also I really don't care about your armory. You could of ebayed your character for all I know, if you're going to tell me that in TBC it required no skill and only raid composition.

Don't you have a more pathetic excuse to advance than me ebaying my character?

I never said the heroic content was not complicated. I'm saying that new players have no incentive to do it. And without no new players, there is no suply of new applications flowing in. Thus more guilds disband and more people unsubscribe.

Of course there is no incentive. Not a lot of people want to commit to what basically is a second working day. Raiding always has been something done by a minority of enthusiasts. The thing is, you can either leave non-raiders out in the cold (which would be wrong) or give them a more accessible version of raid content (LFR).

I notice mister "raid composition". Seriously what raid composition did you have to bring to brutalus in order to TRIVIALISE the encounter. Name me the 25 classes youd bring that would have no clue how to sit out of fire and defeat the encounter just because they had the corect set up.

Brutallus was about gear. If your DPS didn't output more than X DPS, you wouldn't make it. And the said X dps could only be achieved by stacking the best DPSers (warlocks and rogues especially) in full BT gear.

I'll describe you how Bruta was from my POV:
- Spam the first tank
- OMG, tanks are gonna swap in 2 sec, precast.
- Spam 2nd tank.
- OMG I have debuff --> bubble the first time, run to a pre-designated spot the second time.
- Chug pots on CD (no SPs for meh )

But Bruta was not the most comp-demanding boss in SWP. Let's look at the following ones:
- Felmyst. You don't have 3 or better 4 priests to mass dispel the nova? You're screwed. You don't have a prot pally for the adds. Screwed.
- Twins. You don't have 10 healers? Screwed again.
- M'uru. You don't have a pinpoint precise combo (4 warlocks for the void adds, a strong melee comp for one door and a strong ranged one for another etc...)? You're screwed.

If anything, KJ was more forgiving comp wise than those three, you could swap a few people with relative ease.

What does entry barrier have to do with casual players who can't play because they lack the time? This is not what the conversation is about

Because it adds another one. You already have the first entry barrier which is time you need to commit to progression, so there is no need to add a second one.

Then you just don't care or are blind. There have been numerous people stating this issue in this topic alone and many other. Even I saw it in the few days I came back to the game.

Open recount, see DPS, call out for kicks, end of story.

[Deleted]

He's pretty much right. My guild, Natural Order is a retirement home for Death and Taxes, a couple old vodka people, and a bunch of other misc. hardcore vanilla and TBC raiders. We're the ones that still do 25m raiding and persist through change after change.

New players do not ever seem to make it to even my 4/13h guild. If one ever applies, it's usually with an app of one-word answers, incomplete sentences, and no effort.

When I run LFRs, usually for legendary quest drops, I try to whisper other mages to give them friendly tips. Usually they reply that I should shut up, I'm an elitist, blah blah blah. They see my ilvl and damage and write me off as some elite bad guy that is only flexing an epeen.

In Dragon Soul LFR last expac, I was kicked from LFR multiple times for "not needing anything" - despite the fact that I was going just for fun and to test out different specs and talents. When I went to those LFRs, if I won items I would trade them to low performers that I could tell were trying.

You're just not allowed to be a helpful good guy in this environment because you're written off before you can even attempt to help.

In the past, 9 times out of ten I've only had abuse from players who consider themselves "elite", because I don't conform to their standards. When I explain I have hand coordination difficulties which affects my play, they have accused me of "making excuses" which is just not true.

If I play a class/spec which falls behind in either single target DPS or multi-target DPS, I get abuse from ignorant fools, who are again claiming to be elite players.

I'm not talking about "fake" Hardcore players.

So before you complain about the attitude of the casual community...take a look at your own community first.

---------- Post added 2013-06-09 at 06:01 PM ----------

wow hardcore - visits noxxic.com looks up rotation, gems, enchants, etc for maby 20 min spends 10 min on target dummy

wow casual - can't be bothered with anything

I do all of that and I'm a casual player.

*sighs* WoW was *never* a hardcore game.

[veehro]

Don't you have a more pathetic excuse to advance than me ebaying my character?

If you tell me that you have played TBC and it was NOT about skill but JUST about raid composition, then yeah I tend to think you don't know what you are talking about.

Of course there is no incentive. Not a lot of people want to commit to what basically is a second working day. Raiding always has been something done by a minority of enthusiasts. The thing is, you can either leave non-raiders out in the cold (which would be wrong) or give them a more accessible version of raid content (LFR).

So basicly you're completely fine with guilds not having new recruits. Its completly ok if more and more guilds disband so more and more players cancel their accounts while LFR becomes the norm?
Nobody is asking any one to spend another work day. But there should be some incentive to do normal raids and then advance to heroics.
Incentive as better rewards , different content, more prestige.
Maybe new players would enjoy doing hardmodes, but if all they get is almost the same as they get from LFR, why should they bother? Theyd rather cancel their sub and play dota2 till the next patch.

Brutallus was about gear. If your DPS didn't output more than X DPS, you wouldn't make it. And the said X dps could only be achieved by stacking the best DPSers (warlocks and rogues especially) in full BT gear.

I'll describe you how Bruta was from my POV:
- Spam the first tank
- OMG, tanks are gonna swap in 2 sec, precast.
- Spam 2nd tank.
- OMG I have debuff --> bubble the first time, run to a pre-designated spot the second time.
- Chug pots on CD (no SPs for meh )

But Bruta was not the most comp-demanding boss in SWP. Let's look at the following ones:
- Felmyst. You don't have 3 or better 4 priests to mass dispel the nova? You're screwed. You don't have a prot pally for the adds. Screwed.
- Twins. You don't have 10 healers? Screwed again.
- M'uru. You don't have a pinpoint precise combo (4 warlocks for the void adds, a strong melee comp for one door and a strong ranged one for another etc...)? You're screwed.

If anything, KJ was more forgiving comp wise than those three, you could swap a few people with relative ease.

So far all I see is you agreeing with me. I've already admited that composition was required in order to raid, but so far you've also proven to me that skill was also needed.
On brutalus you had to keep your dps rotation flawlesly in order not to enrage.
If 1 single priest missed a dispell=wipe.
If 1 single priest got mind control at felmyst=wipe.
Usualy if 1 single player in the entire raid messed up it was a wipe.

It had nothing to do with the amount of time played, or the amount of time you farmed. It was all about if you're skilled or not and if the other 24 people in the raid were good or bad.
People wanted to play as best as posible in order to avoid geting benched. It was a good motivator, just like in any VIDEO GAME should be.

Because it adds another one. You already have the first entry barrier which is time you need to commit to progression, so there is no need to add a second one.

This barrier was just something raid leaders and guild masters had to worry about. if you were in a raiding guild, regardless of what class you played, you would get invited to raids.
Only the most hardcore guilds out there who were going for world first would bench a mage in favor of a warlock. I have been in many guilds through out TBC and vanilla and was never told I can't raid because my class wasn't good enough.

Open recount, see DPS, call out for kicks, end of story.

Wake up. People don't care. And heck aparantely some one on this thread said that even whispering a guy who does poorly is considerd elitist.

[Deleted]

me tooazzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Tomana]

If you tell me that you have played TBC and it was NOT about skill but JUST about raid composition, then yeah I tend to think you don't know what you are talking about.

Well yeah, you must be quite an expert... oh wait, no.

So basicly you're completely fine with guilds not having new recruits. Its completly ok if more and more guilds disband so more and more players cancel their accounts while LFR becomes the norm?

I'm not OK with guilds dying. But what you have to understand is that the more time passes, the more problems raiding guilds will run into. Why is that? Because less and less people want to commit that much time to an MMO (any MMO) while there are now more accessible games on the market. And there is little you can do about it. The days of hardcore play are over.

Nobody is asking any one to spend another work day.

Playing between 8pm and 1am is pretty close to another work day.

But there should be some incentive to do normal raids and then advance to heroics.
Incentive as better rewards , different content, more prestige.

There is a lot of incentive. You get better gear, achievements, mounts and titles. All of this gives you quite a lot of prestige.

So far all I see is you agreeing with me. I've already admited that composition was required in order to raid, but so far you've also proven to me that skill was also needed.
On brutalus you had to keep your dps rotation flawlesly in order not to enrage.
If 1 single priest missed a dispell=wipe.
If 1 single priest got mind control at felmyst=wipe.
Usualy if 1 single player in the entire raid messed up it was a wipe.

Are you high? Doing a mass dispel on timer is nothing compared to what is required of players these days. Compare it to the priest job on LK HM, where you had to dispel on time, pop hymns when needed and shield the right groups. Or compare it to the chaos that was Mimiron's last phase. SWP bosses were simple compared to it.

Also, it is false that a missed mass dispel = wipe on Felmyst if your healers weren't sleeping. It was tense but recoverable.

It had nothing to do with the amount of time played, or the amount of time you farmed. It was all about if you're skilled or not and if the other 24 people in the raid were good or bad.

Except that the level of skill required in BC was lower than now. Heck, someone posted a quote from Paragon about how they were dying on frost bombs from Vanilla Saphiron. Players were new to the game and generally less skilled than now (I'm talking strictly about raiding here).

This barrier was just something raid leaders and guild masters had to worry about. if you were in a raiding guild, regardless of what class you played, you would get invited to raids.
Only the most hardcore guilds out there who were going for world first would bench a mage in favor of a warlock. I have been in many guilds through out TBC and vanilla and was never told I can't raid because my class wasn't good enough.

Yes, but what about bosses that required mandatory class stacking (like Felmyst required 4 priests). That's what I was referring to.

Wake up. People don't care. And heck aparantely some one on this thread said that even whispering a guy who does poorly is considerd elitist.

Dunno, these people usually get kicked pretty fast in my raids. But sure, your experience may be different.

[Alhoon]

I'm not OK with guilds dying. But what you have to understand is that the more time passes, the more problems raiding guilds will run into. Why is that? Because less and less people want to commit that much time to an MMO (any MMO) while there are now more accessible games on the market. And there is little you can do about it. The days of hardcore play are over.

More casual games brings more people to gaming that would've never touched games before. People like my parents, or younger folks. It does not magically convert that hardcore gamer to a casual one. I know it will never convert me for example. I'd rather stop playing altogether if all games became like Angry Birds.

The same is happening to gaming that happened to Hollywood and music industry, big companies catered to lowest common denominator because that brings the biggest cash flow. This in turn is capitalism's "fault", or blessing if you're part of the majority, but that topic goes far beyond what this thread is about. Still, there exists producers that believe in making good films/music rather than making good money. There will be producers like these in the gaming industry too. Indie games, kickstarter, stuff like that already exists but is still quite limited.

About WoW, well it's Activision's fault, or Vivendi's to be more exact, of what Blizzard has become. Blizzard says they have 100% independence, which might be true as long as they make good profit, but when their subscriptions drop drastically these producers will interfere. And when they do, we get horrible stuff that's based on economists calculations on what reaps best rewards, not what's the best for the game.

[LeperHerring]

More casual games brings more people to gaming that would've never touched games before.

Actually Vanilla/TBC WoW brought in massive amounts of people that never touched games before. People like to complain that those days everything was "exclusive" or whatever, but the reality is that it doesn't matter. People had fun things to do and they could enjoy the game regardless of skill level or dedication (I only ever did 5 mans in vanilla and was perfectly happy). The "exclusivity problem" is just some vocal minority being pissy about other people getting shinier things that they did. It's not a real problem and trying to fix that non-problem destroyed the game and the subscriber numbers.

[veehro]

Well yeah, you must be quite an expert... oh wait, no.

I have never claimed to be an expert, but I did play the game and cleared all the bosses in TBC. I was also a raid leader and know for a fact that when some one is telling me you only needed raid composition BUT NOT SKILL, is either not honest, delusional or never played the same game.

I'm not OK with guilds dying. But what you have to understand is that the more time passes, the more problems raiding guilds will run into. Why is that? Because less and less people want to commit that much time to an MMO (any MMO) while there are now more accessible games on the market. And there is little you can do about it. The days of hardcore play are over.

People comit ALOT of time in video games. Just look at the average time of a starcraft 2 player, a dota 2 player a league of legends player to name but a few games. The fact is that it does feel rewarding playing those games and beeing good at it.
Leeding your team to victory in dota 2 while knowing you've got the most kills or reaching diamond level in sc2 for the first time feels realy rewarding and is worth every single moment you have spent playing the game.

Wow used to be like that as well, up till recently and that is why guilds are dying. There MIGHT be people interested in spending time, if there were some rewards to be had, but since there are not then people would rather play other games instead, hence the subcribers drop during patches.

Playing between 8pm and 1am is pretty close to another work day.

I have never met a guild with such atrocious raid hours. Most guilds on magtheridon servers raided 3 hrs.
If you don't like the hours your guild was raiding, why did you join it? Surely there were other guilds on your server that were fiting your needs more. And if not what stoped you from making your own guild?

There is a lot of incentive. You get better gear, achievements, mounts and titles. All of this gives you quite a lot of prestige.

if you read the forums a bit more, especialy mmo champion, the argument of "nobody cares of your shinies" has been throwned around quite alot.
Reward should equal the effort in order to get people interested.

Are you high? Doing a mass dispel on timer is nothing compared to what is required of players these days. Compare it to the priest job on LK HM, where you had to dispel on time, pop hymns when needed and shield the right groups. Or compare it to the chaos that was Mimiron's last phase. SWP bosses were simple compared to it.

I'm not high and you said that those bosses required no skill just raid composition.
A boss that requires no skill in my eyes is karazhan chess event, the loot ship in icc etc. Regardless how bad you are at the game and what you do, chances are youd still beat the boss.
So in your own words, back in sunwell it only counted if id get a number of shadow priests, this number of shamans, this number of locks and the rest would be easy peasy.

And while we're talking about sunwell, why is it that its far more memorable then ulduar ever was? Oh thats right because ulduar only lasted for a couple of months before that AWESOMELY AMAZING instance TOC came out, causing everebody to forget ulduar was even there.

Also, it is false that a missed mass dispel = wipe on Felmyst if your healers weren't sleeping. It was tense but recoverable.

When you were progressing on it and you were there for the first time with t6 bt gear chances were it was a wipe. But then again they didn't fail the mass dispell because back then people knew how to play. They were trained how to do it by the encounters from the previous raids.

Except that the level of skill required in BC was lower than now. Heck, someone posted a quote from Paragon about how they were dying on frost bombs from Vanilla Saphiron. Players were new to the game and generally less skilled than now (I'm talking strictly about raiding here).

If you compare the skill that was there with the hardcore guilds that are now then yeah i completly agree. People from todays Heroic guilds are far more skilled.
But if you compare the people then with the majority of players that are now in LFR's and who are applying to raiding guilds, then don't make me laugh.

Yes, but what about bosses that required mandatory class stacking (like Felmyst required 4 priests). That's what I was referring to.

I agree that class stacking is bad. I never was in favor of it. I was just arguing on how class stacking has no corelation with the amount of time you play. It didn't affect casuals at all. The only people it affected were the raid leaders and only those that were runing sunwell. Still at least in my guild nobody got benched because of it. Worse that could happen was me calling off a raid because we lacked a priest.

Dunno, these people usually get kicked pretty fast in my raids. But sure, your experience may be different.

Read the forums, its not just my experience.

[Tomana]

I have never claimed to be an expert, but I did play the game and cleared all the bosses in TBC. I was also a raid leader and know for a fact that when some one is telling me you only needed raid composition BUT NOT SKILL, is either not honest, delusional or never played the same game.

It was not the only thing needed, but you needed it. In other words, it was a necessary (but not sufficient) condition.

People comit ALOT of time in video games. Just look at the average time of a starcraft 2 player, a dota 2 player a league of legends player to name but a few games. The fact is that it does feel rewarding playing those games and beeing good at it.
Leeding your team to victory in dota 2 while knowing you've got the most kills or reaching diamond level in sc2 for the first time feels realy rewarding and is worth every single moment you have spent playing the game.

You're comparing mostly PVP games with a PVE game. It's apples and oranges.
Also, I would really like to see the stats on the average times from those games.

Wow used to be like that as well, up till recently and that is why guilds are dying. There MIGHT be people interested in spending time, if there were some rewards to be had, but since there are not then people would rather play other games instead, hence the subcribers drop during patches.

Maybe because people are simply getting bored of playing one single game for 8 years?

I have never met a guild with such atrocious raid hours. Most guilds on magtheridon servers raided 3 hrs.
If you don't like the hours your guild was raiding, why did you join it? Surely there were other guilds on your server that were fiting your needs more. And if not what stoped you from making your own guild?

I didn't say those were the raid times. But you log on at 8, group at 8:15-8:30, raid until midnight, and then do some other stuff until 1 am (I'm talking about BC here, which required a boatload of time outside of raids on consumables and stuff like that).

if you read the forums a bit more, especialy mmo champion, the argument of "nobody cares of your shinies" has been throwned around quite alot.
Reward should equal the effort in order to get people interested.

Well, it seems to me the reward of killing bosses should be enough. Unless of course, you want to rationalize your lack of interest for the game after 8 years. Which is OK in itself, you don't need to rationalize it.

So in your own words, back in sunwell it only counted if id get a number of shadow priests, this number of shamans, this number of locks and the rest would be easy peasy.

Again, if you didn't get those, you would not have a single chance to down the boss. It would not make the boss die on its own, but without those comp requirement, you would never kill it. You couldn't kill the twins with less than 9 healers (during progress), you couldn't kill M'uru with adequate DPS stacking and so on.

And while we're talking about sunwell, why is it that its far more memorable then ulduar ever was? Oh thats right because ulduar only lasted for a couple of months before that AWESOMELY AMAZING instance TOC came out, causing everebody to forget ulduar was even there.

SWP is more memorable than Ulduar? That is debatable. If anything, more people saw Ulduar.
And yes, I agree that TOC was released too early.

If you compare the skill that was there with the hardcore guilds that are now then yeah i completly agree. People from todays Heroic guilds are far more skilled.

Good, because that was exactly my point.

I agree that class stacking is bad. I never was in favor of it. I was just arguing on how class stacking has no corelation with the amount of time you play. It didn't affect casuals at all. The only people it affected were the raid leaders and only those that were runing sunwell. Still at least in my guild nobody got benched because of it. Worse that could happen was me calling off a raid because we lacked a priest.

When you bench a boatload of healers because one boss requres 11 healers and the next one 6, do you think it's optimal design?

[veehro]

You're comparing mostly PVP games with a PVE game. It's apples and oranges.
Also, I would really like to see the stats on the average times from those games.

Oh, so you would be more willing to play more in a pvp game...but sudently if its a pve game you're like Oh nope, i have a real life i cant play, i must have this game made as easily as possible in order for me to see the whole content.

I am not really sure what game i can compare this to, but fine, take civ 5 for instance, and see how much time a civ 5 player invests in his game.

Maybe because people are simply getting bored of playing one single game for 8 years?

Maybe before the game was endless? I mean sure you didn't get to see all the content but you knew there was more to do out there. You knew there was another boss behind the corner waiting for you if you could just kill the boss you were curently at.
Content wasn't added for people to experience it, it was added to let you know there was more out there. That kept people hooked and making them play better (not more).
Now people see what there is to see and get the feeling that they "finished the game". And I completly understand them. Personaly after finishing hitman absolution, I had no incentive to return to it and play it AGAIN on profesional, because its the same game. I saw the story, i killed the last boss, a second play through wouldnt be as wonderfull as the first.

I didn't say those were the raid times. But you log on at 8, group at 8:15-8:30, raid until midnight, and then do some other stuff until 1 am (I'm talking about BC here, which required a boatload of time outside of raids on consumables and stuff like that).

I would of had nothing against the removal of consumables and repair bills. Id of been ok. Yet i dont understand why they had to make the raids more easy.
That has nothing to do with casual/hardcore that has to do with bad players.
Why doesnt fire out right kill you? Why is pulling agro not 1 shot you? Why is it that cc was removed from the game? Those are questions im more curious in finding out.
As for the raid times, again, if you didnt like them, other guilds raided less. You were just in the wrong guild for the amount of time you've had available.

And to compare apples with oranges again. Joining a league of legends clan requires the same level of comitment. You have to join from hour x and play with your ranked team x number of matches. Some people like it, others dont. But if they dont, then dont expect to gain platinum ranked any time soon.
If they would decide to simplify league of legends by making platinum division able to host more people, then beeing in platinum would be meaningless and people would stop forming clans. Get the point?

Well, it seems to me the reward of killing bosses should be enough. Unless of course, you want to rationalize your lack of interest for the game after 8 years. Which is OK in itself, you don't need to rationalize it.

With whom am i supposed to kill the bosses with?! This is what the thread is about. If my guild gets less and less applies, and raiders are quiting, what am i supposed to do? People are loosing interest in the game and its hurting the raiding guilds. And the ones who do not loose interest are so bad at the game that its not even funny. And its not their fault. The game simply doesn't teach you the mechanics of moving out of fire anymore.
Honestly I wouldn't care if i could raid the instances by myself. Id honestly raid them on hardmodes and be happy. How ever finding other people is geting harder and harder and harder as wow population diminishes.

Again, if you didn't get those, you would not have a single chance to down the boss. It would not make the boss die on its own, but without those comp requirement, you would never kill it. You couldn't kill the twins with less than 9 healers (during progress), you couldn't kill M'uru with adequate DPS stacking and so on.

Mate if you were a HUNTER in a raiding guild back then, you wouldnt care about it. Youd sign up for a raid, get invited and if you were good chances were youd never be declined a spot.
Youd of felt unique how ever and enjoyed the fact that you're a hunter, as on some bosses you had to kite. Youd feel special on the fact that you KNEW you contributed on that boss, and knowing that if you dont show up for tomorrows raid, they would strugle since the other hunter is not as good as you.

The only one who cared about class stacking was the guildmaster. He had to know who to recruit, how to set up the raids and so forth.
I honestly never heard a guy before complaining in tbc saying, im a mage and thus i CANT RAID.

And finally this only happend on sunwell plateu, and honestly if you were raiding SWP in tbc, you were dedicated enough to roll another character and bring it to the boss fight that was required.

SWP is more memorable than Ulduar? That is debatable. If anything, more people saw Ulduar.
And yes, I agree that TOC was released too early.

Ask any one who did both what instance was better. What instance felt more epic.
Swp acording to all the polls i've saw won every single debate hands down.
People didn't even needed to see swp. Knowing it was so hard, hearing so much from it on the forums, seeing people steping out of it with the epics, and then seeing all the best guilds on your server at its entrance, gave it an air of mistique, a sense of magic that no other isntance got.
Steping inside swp for the first time was jaw droping. I remember my guildmates simply freezing at the entrance the first time we went there , looking in awe at the room around them.
It was the best moments i have experienced in wow. And it wasn't because blizzard wanted me to. It was because my guild decided to work to be there. It was our reward for killing the bosses and improving our game.


.

When you bench a boatload of healers because one boss requres 11 healers and the next one 6, do you think it's optimal design?

ever heard of dual spec? And even before that I remember giving gold from the guildbank for my members to go and respec. Sure it was a hastle but nobody complained. Some people found it fun and less boring to be able to play both as a healer and as a dps.