Why is Exclusive content a bad thing to some people?

[LeperHerring]

So in other words, you would rather make sure 90% of the playerbase never sees the raid so that you can feel more special about it.

If you want to put it like that, sure. Take the money of the 10% of players that want progression raiding and build progression raids for them. Take the money of the other 90% and build the kind of content they enjoy. That's the whole point. Not everything needs to be for everyone. The whole strength of WoW used to be that there was a great variety of things you could focus on. Today everyone is pushed to the same bland raid content through the million different modes, while in vanilla I could choose to just do 5 mans casually and be perfectly happy.

---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 03:09 PM ----------

Then move on.

I did move on from WoW, a while ago. I get much more value for my money from other games these days.

---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 03:10 PM ----------

Yeeeah, I'm afraid I'll have to go with the "yer doin' it wrong" crowd here. Unfortunately, if the mere existence of LFR bothers you so much, regardless of whether you're running it or not, then World of Warcraft might not be the game for you anymore.

It isn't the game for me anymore, and hasn't been for a long time. Vanilla WoW and TBC were the game for me (and millions more people than today's WoW).

By the way, why do you have such a big beef with LFR and "just grinding the same crap in various difficulties", but you don't seem to have anything against Normal mode, which a Heroic-level raid group would breeze through in a week after release? Isn't it repetition either way?

I have a huge problem with that, if you go back and read my comments from years ago you'll see I made the very same argument against normal/heroic split.

[DrSteveBrule]

Okay, now I admit I don't get your point. How does LFR interfere with the gearing choices of progression raiders? Besides making it faster for someone who's trying to bring an alt into progression to gear up (which should be a good thing), that is?

Fuck, really dude?
How do I explain how gearing works? Uhhh... stronger gear makes bosses easier to kill?
LFR drops stronger gear below Normal mode gear?
RNG is RNG and you can always get something useful from LFR until you're decked out in Normal?

That's what boss strategy is, it's finding the most efficient way to killing the bad guy. Gear is part of killing the bad guy by whatever means.
Hey look! The bad guy has 20 Million less HP and hits like a noodle in another instance that looks exactly like this one!
Player A: fuck this I'm going to LFR
Player B: I like the challenge, I'll stay!
Player C: The gear look the same and the extra mechanics are shallow, I'm out
Player D: Is it worth all these nights for a Purple sword instead of a Red one? Fuck it, I'm out

This is what's happening when you open up content without effort and a reason to improve.

[LeperHerring]

You have the right to define what the game has to be for you to find it acceptable. Unfortunately, you've done that in such a way that you are unlikely to be satisfied by what Blizzard will be willing to do (since satisfying you will require dissatisfying a large segment of players who want something else.) The kind of exclusivity you are looking for is not going to be available from a mass market game except by accident, and won't be sustainable.

That's just your opinion backed up by nothing. The reality is that the kind of gameplay I enjoy and advocate made WoW incredibly successful, the kind of gameplay you're advocating has caused nothing but continuously falling subscriber numbers.

[Holtzmann]

The whole strength of WoW used to be that there was a great variety of things you could focus on. Today everyone is pushed to the same bland raid content through the million different modes, while in vanilla I could choose to just do 5 mans casually and be perfectly happy.

Actually, the whole strength of WoW was its accessibility compared to the competition at the time. And considering just how much grinding it took to do some things back in Vanilla, that's saying something about the competition. Also, having to wait for upwards of an hour trying to gather a group to run 5-mans isn't quite my definition of "running casually", but maybe you just had your own dungeon group you could rely on.

I did move on from WoW, a while ago. I get much more value for my money from other games these days.

I might not be the best person to ask this (although I unsubbed because of time constraints, I still like the game), but why are you here arguing about things that don't affect you anymore?

[Deleted]

concealed LFR hate...

what's so hard to get? i don't give a fuck about learning pve fights(not anymore at least i used to be hardcore when i was 16),i have no interest in farming ANYTHING cause i have much better thing to do with my time,i play wow only for pvp and i'd like to see the story just once(0 interest in reapeating the same instance)

so i just join LFR to see the bosses and the story,nothing less nothing more,i would join LFR even if there was no loot,why does that bother you?you can have the loot,the titles, the mounts and anything else you want i'd happily pass them for you, as they mean notihng to me.

[Holtzmann]

Fuck, really dude?
How do I explain how gearing works? Uhhh... stronger gear makes bosses easier to kill?
LFR drops stronger gear below Normal mode gear?
RNG is RNG and you can always get something useful from LFR until you're decked out in Normal?

That's what boss strategy is, it's finding the most efficient way to killing the bad guy. Gear is part of killing the bad guy by whatever means.
Hey look! The bad guy has 20 Million less HP and hits like a noodle in another instance that looks exactly like this one!
Player A: fuck this I'm going to LFR
Player B: I like the challenge, I'll stay!
Player C: The gear look the same and the extra mechanics are shallow, I'm out
Player D: Is it worth all these nights for a Purple sword instead of a Red one? Fuck it, I'm out

This is what's happening when you open up content without effort and a reason to improve.

I was talking about established Heroic-level groups, which seem to be the ones complaining the most here. Unless a heroic raider went for an entire raid tear without an upgrade, LFR has nothing for them. And if you can't get a group of motivated players going, well... that's not the game's problem. Maybe the pool of people with the free time and the motivation to do that sort of stuff really is shrinking. The game is almost 9 years old, after all.

[LeperHerring]

Actually, the whole strength of WoW was its accessibility compared to the competition at the time. And considering just how much grinding it took to do some things back in Vanilla, that's saying something about the competition. Also, having to wait for upwards of an hour trying to gather a group to run 5-mans isn't quite my definition of "running casually", but maybe you just had your own dungeon group you could rely on.

It showed that you can have both accessible content and "exclusive" content that are separate in the same game and be incredibly successful.

I might not be the best person to ask this (although I unsubbed because of time constraints, I still like the game), but why are you here arguing about things that don't affect you anymore?

Because the game was a big part of my life, I care about how it develops and I wish it will get fixed one day so I can enjoy it again. These forums are full of people that are not playing anymore, if you just want to talk with people that have active accounts you should go to the official forums.

[Deleted]

Exclusive content is good. It motivates people with the fact that there is always something to do.
Now, we re in a modr where everyone MUST see content. But you can't cater one content to 8m players, so we have now a fourth difficuly coming out?!?

I'm all for exclusive content. I dont do pet battles because I abhore that childish polemon side of the game. Therefore its exclusive. And that's abaolutely fine

[Osmeric]

That's just your opinion backed up by nothing. The reality is that the kind of gameplay I enjoy and advocate made WoW incredibly successful, the kind of gameplay you're advocating has caused nothing but continuously falling subscriber numbers.

No, I think you're just not willing to reach a rational conclusion from the totality of the evidence, perhaps because that conclusion would be painful for you.

[Forsedar]

Its a bad thing because the current generation of players feel entitled to every single thing in the game, regardless if they are paying a subscription or not. Its across ALL MMOs that you see this. People just *want* something that other people have, but they don't want to put the same amount of effort into getting it. Players feel like that if ONE person has it, then they should have it too.

It makes no sense to me and really angers me since that is one of the main reasons that I feel is making MMOs go down the drain in terms of quality and longevity. Sure, the casual players (which make up the majority of the playerbase) can log in and have tons of things to do... but the hardcore players quickly lose interest due to the carrot on the stick not being much of a stick.

When I started up WoW at launch, I was a young kid. I barely knew what I was doing but I loved it. I remember seeing those higher level than me and more geared than me and thinking to myself, "Wow... I want to get that!" I didn't immediately thing, "Wow... why don't I have that? This is unfair." The idea of working towards something and finally gaining it was gratifying. There is no sense of accomplishment when you get something that was practically handed to you and all you had to do was log on. Working on a full set of T2 and finally getting it was something to be proud of. Sitting around IF, players would naturally gravitate towards you in awe. Its just like in GW1 when people would understand how awesome you were if you were walking around in full Obsidian, or if you managed to become a Jedi in SWG.

I guess long gone are the days of when effort was a part of the journey, not a hindrance. I know I didn't feel satisfied when I ran my alt through all of the LFRs and thinking to myself, "Really? This was it?" as I gemmed and enchanted gear that was practically given to me.

[Dreknar20]

I was talking about established Heroic-level groups, which seem to be the ones complaining the most here. Unless a heroic raider went for an entire raid tear without an upgrade, LFR has nothing for them.

A completely different story with flex-mode
Plus, not all raiders are divded between 13/13H groups and groups still stuck on normal Horridon

[LeperHerring]

No, I think you're just not willing to reach a rational conclusion from the totality of the evidence, perhaps because that conclusion would be painful for you.

The totality of evidence is simple: your model lost WoW millions of players, mine made WoW one of the most successful games ever.

[Grocalis]

If you want to put it like that, sure. Take the money of the 10% of players that want progression raiding and build progression raids for them. Take the money of the other 90% and build the kind of content they enjoy. That's the whole point. Not everything needs to be for everyone. The whole strength of WoW used to be that there was a great variety of things you could focus on. Today everyone is pushed to the same bland raid content through the million different modes, while in vanilla I could choose to just do 5 mans casually and be perfectly happy.[COLOR="red"]

The issue is that content creation is an finite resource. They have to choose what to make, and at one point in WOTLK they realize that if people wanted more raids, they would have to make sacrifices in other areas. Trial of the Champion was specifically a single room because they needed to save the content guys a lot of time to make ICC and it's accompanying dungeons are decent as possible. They were so behind on some of the MoP content, that is one of the reasons DS didn't have anything really unique outside of Deathwing.

As for heroics, I am perfectly fine getting more dungeons with great rewards, but I wouldn't give up LFR for it. LFR is a great system for me to see high end story content, as someone that didn't even see Kil'jaeden at SWP because I didn't want to bother with guild or PuG drama. I like the fact I can see these things and get loot, I just want the loot to flow more quickly.

I did move on from WoW, a while ago. I get much more value for my money from other games these days.[COLOR="red"]

So in other words, you are sitting on a message board of a game you no longer play, arguing about how bland content is that you have not even taken part in. This does not help your argument. It just makes you seem like a jilted lover complaining about his ex wife and how she never made out with you enough after being together for a few years.

It isn't the game for me anymore, and hasn't been for a long time. Vanilla WoW and TBC were the game for me (and millions more people than today's WoW)

You still use those numbers but I don't think you really understand where those numbers come from.

The totality of evidence is simple: your model lost WoW millions of players, mine made WoW one of the most successful games ever.

You model was irreverent to the games success, as it was not a driving force to why people played. I have already gone over this, so I will not do it again.

[fern2]

Actually I kind of agree that there should be some content that it isn't easy to see. I personally wouldn't be one of the people who had the time and dedication to get through it all, but it would give me a long-term goal to work towards - and perhaps more importantly, it makes the world feel larger if I know there's a whole part of it that I haven't experienced yet.

Maybe it shouldn't be completely inaccessible for anyone, but it should take a lot of time and effort to get to it - not something that everyone can finish before the next patch.

[Holtzmann]

A completely different story with flex-mode
Plus, not all raiders are divded between 13/13H groups and groups still stuck on normal Horridon

Well, I personally don't see a lot of Normal raiders complaining about LFR beyond the occasional "boy, do random groups suck sometimes" complaint. Even when I was still subbed (about three months ago) it was very rare to see Normal-level folks who were stuck in a boss considering LFR to be anything but a handy way to try to get some more drops/points to push through whatever barrier their group was stuck in.

[LeperHerring]

The issue is that content creation is an finite resource. They have to choose what to make, and at one point in WOTLK they realize that if people wanted more raids, they would have to make sacrifices in other areas. Trial of the Champion was specifically a single room because they needed to save the content guys a lot of time to make ICC and it's accompanying dungeons are decent as possible. They were so behind on some of the MoP content, that is one of the reasons DS didn't have anything really unique outside of Deathwing.

They did it in vanilla and TBC, during which time the game grew continuously. Look at the profit margins of WoW, look at history, look at just about any real piece of data and it's clear that the only reason to make sacrifices is greed of the owners. They could build the kind of game I'm talking about and still make a healthy profit, but they rather save money by stretching the same content for everyone. And even still there are players, not owners, but consumers that for some illogical reason defend that choice.

So in other words, you are sitting on a message board of a game you no longer play, arguing about how bland content is that you have not even taken part in. This does not help your argument. It just makes you seem like a jilted lover complaining about his ex wife and how she never made out with you enough after being together for a few years.

So I take it you've stopped even pretending to have an argument and moved on to ad hominems?

You model was irreverent to the games success, as it was not a driving force to why people played. I have already gone over this, so I will not do it again.

It was the key feature to WoW, the very core systems design. You can claim it's irrelevant all you want, but I have no reason to do anything but laugh at you.

[Deleted]

It's interesting you think millions of players actually follow your line of thinking. It's actually very far from the truth if you go anywhere outside of MMO-Champion. When "millions" leave, it's the casuals that are either just done with the game or angry about some roadblock preventing content consumption. Hardcore players are a rather large minority, around 15% from what I have heard Blizzard say, and most are still playing.

Fact is: Noone knows what kind of player are leaving the game and even Blizzard can only gueass why they are leaving.

You seem to think that most players felt excluded when they couldnt see the latest raid the same time as the worlds best players. But obviously the vast majority never cared if they see the raid at all... as long as they felt they have something else to do what is worth their time.
And they would still not care if Blizzard wouldnt try to force all players in the latest raidtier at the same time somehow.

[Deleted]

In b4 "you got raden, that's exclusive content"
Yeah, one faceroll boss on par with normals, thx

[Dreknar20]

Well, I personally don't see a lot of Normal raiders complaining about LFR beyond the occasional "boy, do random groups suck sometimes" complaint.

well even for 100% normal mode raiders, there isnt much reason to run LFR
As Blizzard made a buncha changes to reduce that, greater ilvlv gap, shared rep/legendary items, but with flex mode they are adding all that back in
In GCs words "the lesser of two evils"

[PenguinChan]

The issue is that content creation is an finite resource.

To be fair on this, Blizzard has fucked up their design process for WoW more than once throughout its lifetime. You already gave two good examples where it's very apparent they didn't work on it early enough, or developed ideas to start. They are semi-notorious for working slower than other companies as well, and I still don't see why. Sure you can design and redesign a raid encounter room, or part of a zone; but the amount they do it is just absurd. I feel like it's done to death, and than there are still unmemorable zones they create. Maybe because there are actually less artists working on the team than there used to be.