Which iLvl distribution do you like better?

[Floopa]

First one is better with TF items. It would be nice to see TF HC 2/2 items (which to be fair are VERY RARE and I don't think you would see a guild where everyone is sitting at 549 item level) actually stronger than normal mode items, but on par with 2/2 upgraded normal mode items. Not to mention the flex, normal and heroic mode encounters would be easier to tune with a smaller gap in gear levels. Jumping 30 item levels on 1 heroic item is completely ridiculous.

As an example:

Heroic Twins (on 25 man before nerfs, which was a pretty seriously hard encounter during release) was tested at an item level of 535 on the PTR and felt pretty easy. Doing the fight in item level 525-528~ (which is what Method had) makes the encounter harder. Do they therefore make encounters a steamroll when you hit a certain gear level and make it "only" hard for people in gear that isn't up to par or do they make encounters "difficult" when you hit a certain gear level?

Normal Lei Shen was tested at 517 item level for reference. Do you need everyone in 517 to kill him? No, but if you do it makes the encounter a total joke. This is the problem with Blizzard's "EVERYTHING IS AN UPGRADE" mentality. It kills encounter tuning because you can't tune a boss to 566 item level when no-one is ever going to have that for a very long time. Scale it down. Tune encounters to 554 and heroic raiders in 541-549 gear will have some absolutely amazingly tuned encounters.

[Deleted]

Please let the LFR ilvl be 521, then it's right bellow the current normal mode thus normal mode raiders won't have to enter LFR at the tier launch to get upgrades.

This so much!

[JohnBrown1917]

Please let the LFR ilvl be 521, then it's right bellow the current normal mode thus normal mode raiders won't have to enter LFR at the tier launch to get upgrades.

Normal raiders have no reason to enter LFR if it awards 528~ gear.

[Totle]

Here's my take on it:

Assuming 3 tiers of raiding (Cata/Mop model)

Expansion starts - X01 ilvl.

X40 for questing
X50 for regular dungeons
X55 for heroic dungeons

X60 for LFR
X65 for Crafting and 10/25N
X70 for 10/25H

X65 for LFR of next tier
X75 for 10/25N
X80 for 10/25H

X75 for LFR of next tier
X85 for 10/25N
X90 for 10/25H

Legendary should be Y00 (where Y = X +1)

This model is simple and allows for a fourth tier of gear should it be necessary.

[Moshots]

First one is better with TF items. It would be nice to see TF HC 2/2 items (which to be fair are VERY RARE and I don't think you would see a guild where everyone is sitting at 549 item level) actually stronger than normal mode items, but on par with 2/2 upgraded normal mode items. Not to mention the flex, normal and heroic mode encounters would be easier to tune with a smaller gap in gear levels. Jumping 30 item levels on 1 heroic item is completely ridiculous.

As an example:

Heroic Twins (on 25 man before nerfs, which was a pretty seriously hard encounter during release) was tested at an item level of 535 on the PTR and felt pretty easy. Doing the fight in item level 525-528~ (which is what Method had) makes the encounter harder. Do they therefore make encounters a steamroll when you hit a certain gear level and make it "only" hard for people in gear that isn't up to par or do they make encounters "difficult" when you hit a certain gear level?

Normal Lei Shen was tested at 517 item level for reference. Do you need everyone in 517 to kill him? No, but if you do it makes the encounter a total joke. This is the problem with Blizzard's "EVERYTHING IS AN UPGRADE" mentality. It kills encounter tuning because you can't tune a boss to 566 item level when no-one is ever going to have that for a very long time. Scale it down. Tune encounters to 554 and heroic raiders in 541-549 gear will have some absolutely amazingly tuned encounters.

full agree with you on how shit should be tuned. the problem is like this tier the "cockblock" was too early. Like we Finished US 11th 10 man. week 1 killed jinrok like everyone and then I think 10 US 10 man's killed horridon? week 1. next week we killed 2 bosses and basically every week after that we killed at least 2 bosses untill the last 3 bosses that were really well tuned and took like a week each but the cock block that was pure gear check was due to the largest ilvl gap blizz had ever done. We walked in week 2 and killed heroic horridon in 2 pulls it was such a easy fight but we just didn't have the gear week 1 to kill it. But if they do another gap like there talking about where heroic=flex. It feels like progression will again be artificially blocked by gear too early. DS was a good "block" with ultraxion like 4-5 bosses in. But blizz has to make sure if they make the gap as big as they did again that they don't put a pure gear check boss as early as heroic horridon was. They need to make the more "tecnical" bosses earlier and the more gear check bosses later.

TLDR if they make the gap as big as they did this tier they need to balance the first few bosses better. cause heroic horridon was more of a pure gearcheck week 1 than any gearcheck since ultraxion.

[melodramocracy]

SoO LFR should be below ToT normal.

[ACES]

554 Heroic, 541 Normal, 527 Flex, 521 LFR please!

[JohnBrown1917]

SoO LFR should be below ToT normal.

And why is that?

[ACES]

And why is that?

So people who did ToT normal don't feel obligated to run LFR for gear.

[JohnBrown1917]

So people who did ToT normal don't feel obligated to run LFR for gear.

But those who raid ToT will have 2/2 upgraded gear.

[Prokne]

I would prefer to see the Flex gear closer to the Normal ilvl than the LFR. Its sort of signals how hard the raid will be so I'd like to have it as close to normal as possible.

As for LFR gear it should be less than 530 but higher than 522. Anyone who "has" to run LFR for gear for their normal raids should already be fully normal geared and should have all their gear upgraded before the patch so it would be 530.

If I had to vote for the two options listed I would go with the higher ilvls. It will boost soloing more and give you char more power going into the next exp.

[Deleted]

But those who raid ToT will have 2/2 upgraded gear.

Assuming the majority is a steady nhc raider? Like clearing 12/12 for months, picking BiS there, never filling slots with valor items, always getting valor cap? That sounds not realistic. Normal raiders are not as fixated as LFR. They rotate, they go inactive, they return, they have more than 1 gear-set, they are missing some nhc-bis gear slots and some haven't even resubed to clear ToT yet, but might start with progress next week. Most of the well geared are most likely about to try heroics, replacing gear or others are still progressing....

[Prokne]

Assuming the majority is a steady nhc raider? Like clearing 12/12 for months, picking BiS there, never filling slots with valor items, always getting valor cap? That sounds not realistic. Normal raiders are not as fixated as LFR. They rotate, they go inactive, they return, they have more than 1 gear-set, they are missing some nhc-bis gear slots and some haven't even resubed to clear ToT yet, but might start with progress next week. Most of the well geared are most likely about to try heroics, replacing gear or others are still progressing....

If you arent preparing for the next tier by farming all the normal/heroic gear from this tier and upgrading it, then you have nothing to complain about that you "have" to run LFR for upgrades. You should have done it on your preferred raid difficulty last tier. LFR ilvl shouldnt suffer because some raiders are lazy at gearing later in a tier.

Besides you can just flex raid instead of LFR.

[JohnBrown1917]

Assuming the majority is a steady nhc raider? Like clearing 12/12 for months, picking BiS there, never filling slots with valor items, always getting valor cap? That sounds not realistic. Normal raiders are not as fixated as LFR. They rotate, they go inactive, they return, they have more than 1 gear-set, they are missing some nhc-bis gear slots and some haven't even resubed to clear ToT yet, but might start with progress next week. Most of the well geared are most likely about to try heroics, replacing gear or others are still progressing....

But does that really justify lowering the Ilvl on SoO lfr gear?

[Meredi]

So people who did ToT normal don't feel obligated to run LFR for gear.

This same argument happened when ToT lfr was new. People kept saying that normal raiders shouldn't have to be obligated to do Lfr ToT for upgrades. Thing is the 6 ilvl jump from normal t14 to t15 lfr was so minimal it didnt affect normal mode raiders entering ToT from being full cleared in t14. Between rep you got just for raiding and bosses being tuned to be killed in 496 there was no need to run lfr for 502 gear. If you couldn't clear the bosses in 496 it wasn't a gear issue but a skill problem. Same applies to SoO normal, it will be tuned to clear at 522 so who cares if lfr offered 528, you won't need it to clear SoO normal and your reward is obviously better than lfr or flex.

[Deleted]

But does that really justify lowering the Ilvl on SoO lfr gear?

With all other former made arguments yes. The main argument I hold is the catchup-thing. You might want to read former pages of this thread if you cannot remember them.

@Prakne You are damn hard to a normal raider imo I am not one, that said. Still I don't exactly see why you would make a decision around the normal raiders in such an extend only to defend a higher ilvl for a different group - the LF-Raiders. What do they gain with the higher ilvl?

But as I told this is a conflict of individual interests. And since they want to promote social raiding they should keep ToT normal in the game, as well as lowering the catchup needed to reach flex. I find that position the most valid one in determinating the ilvl. For me those things are purely things I might see with some new alts

[Normie]

So people who did ToT normal don't feel obligated to run LFR for gear.

A group that has the skill to progress on normal but not heroic probably WANTS the option of getting useful gear from LFR.

It's the faux-heroic raiders who "have to" get gear from every possible source. If you are in an ostensibly normal mode raiding group and you are "obligated" to do every gear grind then you are just not playing the game right, or you are being bossed around by dummies who have their priorities up their asses. You won't be spending 20 hours a week raiding normal modes plus however many hours doing other stuff. That is just so not the right way to play the game.

Meanwhile, it makes no sense to fill LFR with gear that is a DOWNGRADE for people who have run nothing but LFR the preceding tier. If someone grinded all the rep/valor 522 gear, which I think some people have done already, and then upgraded it, he would be very close to 530. T16 LFR needs to be 525-530 in order for there to be a point for someone who stayed busy in T15 LFR to go into it more than once.

Having 4 tiers is pretty silly. Normal should have been made flex. But whatever. It probably will be next time.

[JohnBrown1917]

With all other former made arguments yes.

Imo, if they really don't want to do LFR. They should just get fully geared from normal. If they need to use LFR to 'catch-up' then its their problem, they shoulden't have fallen behind.

But really, to stop all this whining they should just make LFR share a lock-out with flex/normal or add a 522 ilvl justice vendor into the game. Or maybe both, whatever works.

[Normie]

Imo, if they really don't want to do LFR. They should just get fully geared from normal. If they need to use LFR to 'catch-up' then its their problem, they shoulden't have fallen behind.

But really, to stop all this whining they should just make LFR share a lock-out with flex/normal and add a 522 ilvl justice vendor into the game.

It's super clear why flex can't share a lockout with any other tier, and it makes no sense for LFR to share a lockout either.

If you really think it's worthwhile to go subject yourself to several hours of one or two 5% rolls per hour for a piece of tier 10-30 ilevel below the difficulty you're raiding then go ahead. It's not worthwhile, but not being worthwhile has never stopped a bunch of singleminded people from doing it anyway.

[JohnBrown1917]

It's super clear why flex can't share a lockout with any other tier, and it makes no sense for LFR to share a lockout either.

If you really think it's worthwhile to go subject yourself to several hours of one or two 5% rolls per hour for a piece of tier 10-30 ilevel below the difficulty you're raiding then go ahead. It's not worthwhile, but not being worthwhile has never stopped a bunch of singleminded people from doing it anyway.

Ye okay.

But a shared lock-out with normal should be fine, either that or a 522 Ilvl~ justice vendor. Even if its just to put a stop to the whining.