Warlock patch 5.4 discussion

[xskarma]

Honestly that's what I expected it to be/look like.
Do you have green fire, thought it might go green if you had it.

That char didn't have green fire, it's a pre 5.2 copy. It's a good point, though.

[lawow74]

I think the best thing to do would be to halve the speed of our channels when moving, but leave them castable while moving and let KJC go back to being a CD that removes that penalty. Then the playstyle remains the same, just another button to press to let you do it without penalty for a short period.

[whi]

Pretty sure it stayed purple for green destro, can't double check/check other specs as the ptr realms seem to be missing!

[Thelxi]

I'd rather have improved Soul Fire back !!

Never !!

[Deleted]

Never !!

Better than reduced cast time while moving, or even haunt on the move ....

Haunt on the move, what a stupid idea, its a multiplier, not a filler....

[junn]

Regarding KJC change:

Talent was dumb in some respects. I think all casters should be able to cast some spells while moving, but it should basically be a dps loss.

Give all casters their filler spell that is able to be cast while moving, including healers. Shadow priests can mind flay, boomies wrath, destro locks can incinerate, etc. Healers can cast their slow heals while moving, so priests can cast heal / gheal.

As a pvp'er, the only thing ridiculous about KJC was that the warlock could chase you around pillars casting fear making it way too hard to avoid a spammable CC.

Overall, I think you should be able to do something more than spam instants while moving, but not just blindly cast whatever you want while moving. For locks, it would mean finding moments to stop in a safe spot to put up immo/ua/cb/etc, while still being able to move most of the time. More planning, higher skill-cap, still viable for the way the new raids are being designed.

Regarding MF nerf:

Most RBG teams are made up of 2-4 warlocks spamming 500% RoF and FnB conflag/incin/immo to get infinite embers and spamming chaos bolts as a result. This nerf to MF is to nerf warlocks in RBG's, and might not be as much of a PVE change.

Just my 2c!

[Szarala]

The fact that they're now considering making Haunt castable on the move after hundreds of people screamed "Malefic Grasp" at them is baffling.. truly baffling

[dakalro]

Yes, I would really like to cast Haunt when I can't MG right after that ... Good logic.

[JJShadoe]

As a pvp'er, the only thing ridiculous about KJC was that the warlock could chase you around pillars casting fear making it way too hard to avoid a spammable CC.

Except we actually can't because we are running slowly because of the debuff. Pillar chasing in pvp is maddening for me.

[junn]

Except we actually can't because we are running slowly because of the debuff. Pillar chasing in pvp is maddening for me.

Playing a healer (priest) as well as a lock, I can assure you that a lock running at 70% is still way harder to LOS than a lock standing still. Not necessarily for running around nice 90 degree corners, but positioning is rarely as simple as that.

Especially when you are playing something like lock/mage where you need to los both lock and mage, and still stay in los of your team.

I still agree locks suck arenas atm, but an on-the-move, spammable cc is dumb.

[Xanatas]

HOT baseline is a good stuff...

fel armor nerf is really bad... warlock need damage reducion AND armor ("demon skin" buff like inner fire?)

KJC nerf = affliction/destruction PVP death.

"Demonic breath" is totally garbage, 50% snare VS melee is useless... give "carrion swarm" baseline with KB+slowing effect.

[Jainzar]

luckily i have quit the game so i don't have to witness this garbage. what a joke by blizzard.

[Deleted]

I feel it is too soon to complain about KJC nerfs (unless you pvp) considering 5.4 raid encounters might not be movement heavy (long shot)
What gripes me in the t16 2 set, might change stat weights quite a bit.

[Infernix]

As I said earlier, we suffered two big DPS nerfs due to KJC. If they're ruining KJC, then the least that they can do is undo those big nerfs and buff the living hell out of our dots again.

Because, quite flipping seriously here, guys...Either let us be a mobile class reliant on MF, or make us a turret class and buff our dots to make it possible. Stop expecting us to deal with the negatives of your confused development style for locks.

[Count Zero]

I feel it is too soon to complain about KJC nerfs (unless you pvp) considering 5.4 raid encounters might not be movement heavy (long shot)
What gripes me in the t16 2 set, might change stat weights quite a bit.

Dungeon Journal for some fights is available. Everything is movement heavy.

[Nicola]

Dungeon Journal for some fights is available. Everything is movement heavy.

And from what it looks like, there will be multiple council fights and fights with a bunch of adds.

[Arrogant Bastard]

Dungeon Journal for some fights is available. Everything is movement heavy.

It will remain this way. WoW will never go back to the previous design. They have exported the movement heavy that is present in raids to daily's, scenarios, and dungeons. It is the way WoW will continually be designed, which is precisely why KjC was so nice.

[Werst]

The changes so far are misguided and will cause more problems than they fix.

Dev Problem = locks are too durable in raids
PVP Problem = locks are too squishy in pvp
Actual issue = soul leech stacking to 100% of lock's HP. Cap SL's shield to 30-50% of the lock's HP and leave 10% static dmg reduction in.

Dev Problem = all ranged cast too much on the move
Better Solution = allow filler spells to be cast mobile, KJC on use lets all spells. Similar to shaman/hunters. IE we could cast MG/DS, shadowbolt, and incinerate on the move with KJC but nothing else without the on use. Good middle ground.

Dev Problem = locks have amazing aoe thanks to MF
Better Solution = make it a passive but compromise on the size from 500% to 250-300%. We don't need another CD...we are getting into button overload again.

Side effect = 90% of locks will be forced into AV.
Issue = the on use is almost never a good idea to use since it makes the passive go away. It also is too weak in pvp but making it strong enough in pvp would make standing in stupid a strat in pve.
Solution = Keep the passive active at all times. Let the on use increase the reflect. Give it separate values pvp and pve. Something like 50% on use pvp, and 10% passive pvp. Compared to the monk version its way too weak. A single hot, shield, etc negates it entirely. As it stands you can get beaten to death and the attacker would be at 95% hp. Anyone NOT make that trade in pvp? Even the on use would make the attacker be at 80%. It should make them a viable swap target at least which is around 50% which is exactly in line with my suggestion.

Issue affliction pvp: non dr interrupts, stun dr, silence dr, misc other cc's = a 0 casting environment. Since our dots don't do much damage but act more like debuffs to fuel MG damage we need to be able to use MG in pvp. Trying to make dots do all the work is super tough to balance vs pve.
Solution: make MG, DL, and DS be uninterruptable like hunter steady/cobra.
Soulution pt2: to help dots be meaningful without messing with pve and without making darksoul+trinket too powerful (since the delta between baseline and that is huge) tie a 30%'ish buff to dots vs players to a new darksoul glyph.
New darksoul glyph = your darksoul now grants 15% stat gain but has a 60 second cooldown. In addition periodic effects tick 30% harder vs players.

Destro PVP issue = no way to use chaosbolt vs a team of similar MMR, especially not the "all cd's one every 2 min". Without that spell destroy is too binary on its use and has little to no pressure without it.
Solution: Since CB was nerfed vs players 25% let it be instant at 3x backdraft. Not out of line whatsoever compared to pyroblast streaks vs frozen, frostmage instants/procs, or even ele burst via instant procs, and certainly not out of line vs hunter "instants".

Demo PVP issue = DF generation way to slow, losing fury shifting in/out of DA when other classes can use their defensive stances with far less penalty, RNG swings on CW making it hard to balance.
Solutions: DA to meta shift without complete DF loss. Gain DF when doom is dispelled AND procs an imp. Double normal/pve DF generation vs player targets. (esp if we are not doing anything w' DA) Finally treat CW like CB/soulfire...cut dmg in half, it always crits, scales with crit, revert the old dmg nerf.
Dev Attitude: we wish DA didn't exist so that's out, we don't want to try to balance demo in pvp so we would rather have you play aff.


The base issue is that balance aside the 5.4 patch is making warlocks far less fun to play mechanics wise. It making pvp utterly painful in a time when pvp participation is dropping. There seems to be a disconnect in terms of how devs go about "fixing" things suggesting they don't main a lock and tend to not listen to the community when it comes to things that pertain to what makes the class fun to spend time on.

[Rayaleith]

The changes so far are misguided and will cause more problems than they fix.

Dev Problem = locks are too durable in raids
PVP Problem = locks are too squishy in pvp
Actual issue = soul leech stacking to 100% of lock's HP. Cap SL's shield to 30-50% of the lock's HP and leave 10% static dmg reduction in.

Dev Problem = all ranged cast too much on the move
Better Solution = allow filler spells to be cast mobile, KJC on use lets all spells. Similar to shaman/hunters. IE we could cast MG/DS, shadowbolt, and incinerate on the move with KJC but nothing else without the on use. Good middle ground.

Dev Problem = locks have amazing aoe thanks to MF
Better Solution = make it a passive but compromise on the size from 500% to 250-300%. We don't need another CD...we are getting into button overload again.

Side effect = 90% of locks will be forced into AV.
Issue = the on use is almost never a good idea to use since it makes the passive go away. It also is too weak in pvp but making it strong enough in pvp would make standing in stupid a strat in pve.
Solution = Keep the passive active at all times. Let the on use increase the reflect. Give it separate values pvp and pve. Something like 50% on use pvp, and 10% passive pvp. Compared to the monk version its way too weak. A single hot, shield, etc negates it entirely. As it stands you can get beaten to death and the attacker would be at 95% hp. Anyone NOT make that trade in pvp? Even the on use would make the attacker be at 80%. It should make them a viable swap target at least which is around 50% which is exactly in line with my suggestion.

Issue affliction pvp: non dr interrupts, stun dr, silence dr, misc other cc's = a 0 casting environment. Since our dots don't do much damage but act more like debuffs to fuel MG damage we need to be able to use MG in pvp. Trying to make dots do all the work is super tough to balance vs pve.
Solution: make MG, DL, and DS be uninterruptable like hunter steady/cobra.
Soulution pt2: to help dots be meaningful without messing with pve and without making darksoul+trinket too powerful (since the delta between baseline and that is huge) tie a 30%'ish buff to dots vs players to a new darksoul glyph.
New darksoul glyph = your darksoul now grants 15% stat gain but has a 60 second cooldown. In addition periodic effects tick 30% harder vs players.

Destro PVP issue = no way to use chaosbolt vs a team of similar MMR, especially not the "all cd's one every 2 min". Without that spell destroy is too binary on its use and has little to no pressure without it.
Solution: Since CB was nerfed vs players 25% let it be instant at 3x backdraft. Not out of line whatsoever compared to pyroblast streaks vs frozen, frostmage instants/procs, or even ele burst via instant procs, and certainly not out of line vs hunter "instants".

Demo PVP issue = DF generation way to slow, losing fury shifting in/out of DA when other classes can use their defensive stances with far less penalty, RNG swings on CW making it hard to balance.
Solutions: DA to meta shift without complete DF loss. Gain DF when doom is dispelled AND procs an imp. Double normal/pve DF generation vs player targets. (esp if we are not doing anything w' DA) Finally treat CW like CB/soulfire...cut dmg in half, it always crits, scales with crit, revert the old dmg nerf.
Dev Attitude: we wish DA didn't exist so that's out, we don't want to try to balance demo in pvp so we would rather have you play aff.


The base issue is that balance aside the 5.4 patch is making warlocks far less fun to play mechanics wise. It making pvp utterly painful in a time when pvp participation is dropping. There seems to be a disconnect in terms of how devs go about "fixing" things suggesting they don't main a lock and tend to not listen to the community when it comes to things that pertain to what makes the class fun to spend time on.

Nice one. Why don't you post this to the official forums as well?

[Szarala]

There seems to be a disconnect in terms of how devs go about "fixing" things suggesting they don't main a lock and tend to not listen to the community when it comes to things that pertain to what makes the class fun to spend time on.

The one that did was fired and the lead dev actively hates the class.. or at least that's the perception and they're really not doing anything to dispel it.