5.4 KJC changes.

[kenshinag]

Well he's got a point there. Hunters are weird. They're ranged, like a caster, but then they need Expertise like a melee. They're an inbetween class, not entirely bound by the rules that govern either melee or Ranged. I have no beef about that.

We could do 7.5% expertise / 7.5% hit too if we wanted to. Hell we could do 15% expertise.

[xskarma]

We could do 7.5% expertise / 7.5% hit too if we wanted to. Hell we could do 15% expertise.

Hunters don't have that choice though. It's a minor thing, but it shows it's not just some assgrab justification they came up with on the spot. I really feel this is what was intended for Hunters for a while now, the whole ranged melee thing.

I also don't feel like we should be making demands for mobility cause Hunters can cast everything on the move. It needs to be why WE need it. Looking at other classes, with other designs, and design problems, and niches is not going to help. Look at our own class, and explain that the DPS loss through having nmomthing to cast through moving AND loosing out on the resources we don't generate in that time hurts us more then it should.

If we get compensated for this loss then I have no beef with not being able to move and cast, it's just that the initial intention doesn't seem to be to compensate us. Now this might be down to something as simple as that they want to see how much worse we do in terms of DPS before they buff us back up, but I don't trust in that dynamic completely. We'll have to wait and see though, raid testing won't be here for a good while yet, and I assume that's where most of the data will come from.

It would theoretically from PvP testing too, but we all know that's always severly lacking on the PTR. I'm just going to assume PvP for locks will be horrible next season, regardless of anything, cause these changes won't be compensated for PvP.

[Grizelda]

With regards to melee not being able to get to boss: I'd also like to point out that hitboxes are huge right now. Pretty sure you can melee most bosses from VERY forgiving distance.

With regards to the "arms race": I think having casters mobile allows for better encounter designs. More things can be thrown our way. Encounter designs have progressed and become much more intricate. I would rather not go back to "side step this puddle every 20 seconds".

Also I think if you review Hunters you'll find they bring a large and varied amount of raid utility.

Focusing on why WE need mobility: We lost a lot of our instant casts. We lost a lot of our CC. Melee have more gap closers now. Most classes have beefed up cc's. Encounter designs are moving in that direction. Other solutions presented so far seem lacking, cause more button and macro bloat, do not really address the issue or create more issues. Not to mention the timing is horrible for such a change.

[Deleted]

With regards to melee not being able to get to boss: I'd also like to point out that hitboxes are huge right now. Pretty sure you can melee most bosses from VERY forgiving distance.

Rogues and feral druids for instance gain energy while they're not attacking.
Warlocks gain nothing.

[Grizelda]

Maybe we could generate embers from moving? Or we start with full embers that deplete as we cast and build back up like an energy bar?

Or we just leave well enough a lone and go fix other problems.....

[Deleted]

I do find it very useful KJC , indd great tool , but i also think the impact will not be as hurtfull as many think , at least on the very high lvl skilled locks(pve wise) .Wrapping ur brain around any boss mechanics and with some prepositioning and smart reactions it will not be as high impact on your dps as much as it is loosing MF on some other fights.That is my opinion.Our passive defense sistem is going to hurt a little bit from ocasionally from nerfing KJC aswel.

[justinmccray111]

I dont see the new KJC as a nerf.

Its an active talent now with 15 second duration and a 1.5 min CD, that's better than the shaman's Spiritwalker's grace.

They removed the slow on it, so you are actually moving while casting AT NORMAL speed.

I think they actually buffed it.

[TyrianFC]

What if moving depleted embers/soul shard/demonic fury as well as movement speed? BUT they kept it as a passive like now.

[justinmccray111]

Warlocks got lazy with KJC. You dont need to be always moving while casting ya know. 30% reduced speed sucked.

[FurtyIRL]

Utility would be like Demonic Gateway or Demonic Circle which is what the T6 talents should be.. but that'd make too much sense for Blizzard.

Not really a great example gateway would crush circle every time ... but yeah, your point is valid.

[leviathonlx]

Kinda amuses me that the KJC nerf will actually make the Kanrethad fight harder.

[justinmccray111]

Kinda amuses me that the KJC nerf will actually make the Kanrethad fight harder.

No it wont.

[TyrianFC]

It wont make much difference to the fight at all. Any difficulty increase from not being able to dps while moving, will be more than offset by dps gains from gear we have by that stage.

You dont need to stand still to cast charge, singe, felflame breath, purge magic etc etc.

[Deleted]

Rogues and feral druids for instance gain energy while they're not attacking.
Warlocks gain nothing.

Any Rogue/Feral that doesn't attack will become energy capped, unless they're energy starved, and either way they'll still lose damage from auto-attacks, poison etc. Besides, you could make the same argument about Destro when moving can regen mana and it wouldn't hold up either.

Besides, why are we meant to gain anything from movement in the first place? It's meant to be a gauge so that the skilled players who can predict movement and plan accordingly can reap the reward of a less disrupted rotation/dps.

[traumabrew]

Blizzards stated reason for the nerf is that it is not acting as intended. KJC is acting as intended. Yes, almost every warlock picks it because MF is situational and AV sucks. So there really isn't much choice. In the past, they have stated and actually implemented making a talent choice that all players pick into a baseline ability. Why not with KJC? Why nerf it?

Warlocks of MoP are not the warlocks of Vanilla, BC, Wrath, or Cata. My lock was raised during Wrath and I know this. The MoP overhaul and balancing of the class was with KJC. Many players have come to like the playstyle of warlocks and it has made playing this class more enjoyable. KJC and being able to move while casting has become warlocks unique "shiny". This nerf only homogenizes our class. What makes us different than mages? Not much if this nerf goes through.

So, the class has been balanced around us being able to cast and move. Our DPS is not the best, but we are holding our own. So, it is not OP. If it was truly OP and game breaking, you would see lock stacking and WoL would be filled with locks. But it isn't. So, by nerf'ing KJC our DPS will be nerf'd to the ground. This will be from 2 primary issues. First, we wont be able to cast as many spells as we can now. Obvious issue, less spells cast = less DPS. Destro has 1 instant cast spell. The others range from 1.25 secs to 2.6 seconds at current gear and hast levels. Affliction can instant cast the 3 DoT's by using soulburn soul swap which requires a shard. These DoT's, by themselves, are weak. You have to use Haunt and use Malefic Grasp which is a channeled spell to get the DoT's to do any real damage. Second, which I feel is the bigger issue, is the hit our secondary resource regen will take. Soul shards and Burning embers are regenerated by casting other spells. Since we will not be casting as many spells as we do now, our shard and ember regen will be low. Destro use embers to cast chaos bolt which is our nuke and Afflic uses them to cast haunt and to soulburn the DoTs onto targets. So, less haunts and less chaos bolts mean way less DPS. Now add that to the fact we are not going to be casting as many spells as before, you can easily see how warlock DPS will be the lowest of any DPS spec. Currently, Blizzard has put the nerf onto the PTR but no compensation in our other spells. Instant cast haunt is useless if you don't have the shards to cast it.

So, in my eyes, Blizzard rushed the nerf out ASAP without thinking it through. And now they are stumbling trying to defend the nerf. If you have noticed, GC has not answered a single twitter about the nerf and Lore has made one post. This in a weeks time. They have no plans to balance this. They nerf'd mannoroths fury to a CD just to say, "well all 3 level 90 talents are similar as they are all a type of cooldown". Mannoroths fury wasn't broken. No one ever had an issue with it. It was a passive ability to increase our AOE spells radius by 500%. And they left poor archimondes vengeance alone. So, now, looking at the three talent choices after the nerf, almost every lock will still be taking KJC since the other options are horrid. So, in the end, Blizzards stated reason for nerf'ing KJC fails. No warlock will be really choosing any other talent but KJC still, because even the nerf'd version is better than the other 2 options.

[Kagecamia]

I dont see the new KJC as a nerf.

Its an active talent now with 15 second duration and a 1.5 min CD, that's better than the shaman's Spiritwalker's grace.

They removed the slow on it, so you are actually moving while casting AT NORMAL speed.

I think they actually buffed it.

Um.....How? Is it a buff again?

[Deleted]

Um.....How? Is it a buff again?

In a sense it's a buff because it's removing the snare, and compared to other casters' mobility it's still quite powerful. Of course there's a downside but compared to Mages, Boomkins, Spriests, it's more powerful than what they have, and second only to Ele Shaman.

---------- Post added 2013-06-16 at 03:36 AM ----------

What makes us different than mages? Not much if this nerf goes through.

Agreed. Despite the fact that we have a fully fledged DoT spec in which 4 out of 5 buttons are DoTs, a spec that makes you transform into a demon and changes your spells dynamically when you do, a spec that has an energy-like mana bar and based around resource consumption, we don't have a spec that depends on resource conservation, we don't have a spec that depends on Direct Damage spells with DoT afterburns, we don't have a spec dependant on procs and a mastery that only works with procs, we don't have a reliance on Invoc/RoP, our specs don't all share the only DoT the class has (not counting Pyroblast since that's proc-refreshed), we have Demons, we have teleports, we have healthstones, we can sacrifice health for mana, we don't have portal technology (damn you Cave Johnson I knew we should have sent you the blueberry muffins like the Mages did), we have the only quest ingame that is unique to a single class and gives a color alteration to our spells, our tier sets generally look a lot cooler (especially S14, did you see it, I mean amazing), and in general all the spells we tend to use work differently. But yeah, apart from that, all that was keeping us from being Mages was a single talent. That definitely is the reason why we should keep it as the only real viable talent choice of that tier, contradiction Blizz's design choice with MoP.

[Szarala]

In a sense it's a buff because it's removing the snare, and compared to other casters' mobility it's still quite powerful. Of course there's a downside but compared to Mages, Boomkins, Spriests, it's more powerful than what they have, and second only to Ele Shaman.

All of those classes get (or can at least spec into) instant proc DDs and our "buffed" 6th tier talent is now similar to a mage's 1st tier one.

[Kagecamia]

All of those classes get (or can at least spec into) instant proc DDs and our "buffed" 6th tier talent is now similar to a mage's 1st tier one.

This in a nutshell

[schmearcampain]

Well Tortos is going to suck now. Especially since I'm the kicker and have to run all the fucking time.

At least make Haunt cost less and/or last longer.

And it looks like goSac is shity again.