Warlock patch 5.4 discussion

[Nicola]

I may be wrong, but it's looking like Breath of Gul'dan does damage and leaves a DoT. At least it looks that way on the tool tip.

Really hated trying to worm my way into melee all last expac.

I doubt it will go live with a damage portion, and if it does, I'm fairly sure they've learnt their lesson during the previous expansions that no matter how much of a dps increase it will be, we'll use it.

[Werst]

The soul leech cap is fine but the fel armor change needs to be reverted. Locks are too survivable in pve on live and waaay too squishy pvp on live. What's the biggest difference? Soul leech! The double nerf is too much...

As far as mobile casting its fine if GC wants to kill it but that kind of thing needs to be done over ALL ranged and really not before the next xpac. Really without letting locks keep mobile fillers its going to be a balance problem and/or just force everyone to raid as demo...even if it has lower numbers. The other option is to give some of the important non filler spells the mobile treatment (eg haunt) but that means perma mobile (or just instant at 3x backdraft) chaosbolts which is one of those boogeyman spells that can never be nerfed enough in GC's view yet he thinks that we somehow enjoy the longest in combat cast in the game.

[Teye]

Breath of Guldan is just old Shadow Flame reworked with a smaller area. If they didn't take the damage out yet, they will soon.

[Nicola]

Instant chaos bolt with 3 stacks bacdraft is going to be ridiculous though.
Conflagrate twice for 6 stacks backdraft > Wait till Conflagrate is back up without wasting backdraft > Pop cooldowns > instant Chaosbolt > Conflagrate > instant Chaos Bolt > instant Chaos Bolt / Shadowburn.

Congratulations, you just killed a poor guy with multiple instant 100k+ crits without hard casting a single spell.

For some reason I always see what problems a change will bring, not the good stuff it might bring :/

[Deleted]

The other option is to give some of the important non filler spells the mobile treatment (eg haunt) but that means perma mobile (or just instant at 3x backdraft) chaosbolts which is one of those boogeyman spells that can never be nerfed enough in GC's view yet he thinks that we somehow enjoy the longest in combat cast in the game.

I enjoy it quite a lot. What difference would there be between fireball, frostbolt, shadow bolt and chaos bolt if they chose to cut CB damage and cast time in half?

It's a trademark for destro locks and I love it.

But you PvPers would be happiest if all the spells were the same, if they were invisible and make no sound.

Your lust for balance and perfect PvP gameplay is what is often the motive for taking away a unique feature of a class. AV animation had to be removed because it revealed your position in PvP. For you, there was a glyph designed that hides the shards lingering over your head in Affli, because it revealed to the opponent how many shards you have. I heard many locks complaining about Demonic Circle, because it revealed where the lock is going to port.. "Give us blink, screw Demonic circle".

If people like you were in charge of WoW, it would be the most boring game in the world. Something being inconvenient doesn't mean it is bad. Is it incovenient to cast CB for 2,5 secs? Certainly. But is is bad? Hell no. It's what defines the spec and you'd like to get rid of it because of the damn PvP.

What else is on your list? I bet Malefic Grasp is. Yes, f*ck that it fits the affliction theme perfectly, looks awesome and it's mechanically quite unique... give us Shadow bolt back, because that was best for PvP.

I've ready many of your post here and on WoW forums and it's all the same... "Screw that something is cool and people enjoy it, it's not as convenient as Ice Lance for PvP, so it's bad and need to be changed to something generic".

[Nicola]

Well, just saying, but in WotlK and Cataclysm, Chaos Bolt was a quick, absorb piercing spell with a fair amount of damage. I'd really like that version of Chaos Bolt back and the rest of my damage buffed compared to the current version of Chaos Bolt.
I honestly don't see much of a difference between Chaos Bolt right now and Improved Soul Fire during Cataclysm.

I think it's pretty clear I prefer the wotlk/cataclysm version of destruction over this one

[Deleted]

Well, just saying, but in WotlK and Cataclysm, Chaos Bolt was a quick, absorb piercing spell with a fair amount of damage. I'd really like that version of Chaos Bolt back and the rest of my damage buffed compared to the current version of Chaos Bolt.
I honestly don't see much of a difference between Chaos Bolt right now and Improved Soul Fire during Cataclysm.

And also in WotLK and Cata it was such a bad spell it was better for you to cast Corruption over Chaos Bolt if you had to choose between those two. I hated it.

I quite enjoy how Destruction works and CB is what defines that. You store burning embers and the release them with this devastating spell. Halving damage and cast time would take that away. It wouldn't probably felt much different than casting Incinerate thanks to the similiar cast time. Not to mention CB has also the function of mana regeneration spell for Destro and halving it's cast time would also counter this function.

You just have to come to piece with it. You have a visually and thematically beautiful spec that as any spec in the game has its disadvantages. The art is to play "around" those disadvantages.

If they were to reduce CB cast time and damage in half I'd probably quit playing Destruction. The long cast time, the calm before the storm is what defines the spec. I'd be very sad if that was taken away just because it was impractical for PvP...

[Grizelda]

How about Backdraft allows incinerate and Chaosbolt to be cast while mobile?

[Brusalk]

How about Backdraft allows incinerate and Chaosbolt to be cast while mobile?

Tying movement DPS to an aura that naturally decreases the time to cast those abilities is counter-productive.


I would be perfectly fine with them allowing MG/DS, Shadowbolt/Soul Fire, and Incinerate to be cast while moving with KjC passive.

[Warrada]

New Blue post in http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...18881?page=111

A few changes, but it seems to me thats it wont be enough yet, especially for Destro...


Got a few updates for you guys. Standard disclaimer applies that this is all still in early testing and subject to change.

Fel Flame has gotten a slight rework. It now has a 1.5 second cast time, but can always be cast while moving. Also, it no longer extends the duration of damage over time effects (and, as such, no longer causes them to lose their "snapshotted" stats) and has gotten a small damage buff. The intent here is that you should be able to use this to keep up some damage when you need to move, but you'll want to stick to your standard rotation otherwise.

Looking specifically at Affliction, we're lowering the bonus damage that Malefic Grasp provides and moving that damage over into Haunt and the DoT effects themselves to compensate. We still want Malefic Grasp to be your primary filler for single target DPS, but this will make it a bit less punishing when you can't afford to channel it (especially in PvP). Haunt will once again be interrupted by movement, in favor of the Fel Flame change.

There's been a couple adjustments to the level 90 talents as well. Both Kil'Jaeden's Cunning and Mannoroth's Fury have had their cooldowns and durations lowered to 60 and 10 seconds, respectively. Mannoroth's Fury now only applies to the core AoE damage spells (Seed of Corruption, Hellfire, Immolation Aura, and Rain of Fire), but increases their damage by 100% while active in addition to the range increase. Note that Rain of Fire is being changed to no longer generate enough Burning Embers to be worth using in a single target rotation (so, Destruction shouldn't feel forced into Mannoroth's Fury).

These should hopefully be hitting the PTR in the next build. Once again, please remember that we're very early in the 5.4 development process. Any or all of this may still change before the patch goes live.

Lore, Community Manager.

[Phoenexis]

Well, just saying, but in WotlK and Cataclysm, Chaos Bolt was a quick, absorb piercing spell with a fair amount of damage. I'd really like that version of Chaos Bolt back and the rest of my damage buffed compared to the current version of Chaos Bolt.
I honestly don't see much of a difference between Chaos Bolt right now and Improved Soul Fire during Cataclysm.

I think it's pretty clear I prefer the wotlk/cataclysm version of destruction over this one

Yes yes yes. This model is just annoying as hell and a major turn off. If this expansion has proven anything, it's that it sucks.

---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 01:15 AM ----------

New Blue post in http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...18881?page=111

A few changes, but it seems to me thats it wont be enough yet, especially for Destro...


Got a few updates for you guys. Standard disclaimer applies that this is all still in early testing and subject to change.

Fel Flame has gotten a slight rework. It now has a 1.5 second cast time, but can always be cast while moving. Also, it no longer extends the duration of damage over time effects (and, as such, no longer causes them to lose their "snapshotted" stats) and has gotten a small damage buff. The intent here is that you should be able to use this to keep up some damage when you need to move, but you'll want to stick to your standard rotation otherwise.

Looking specifically at Affliction, we're lowering the bonus damage that Malefic Grasp provides and moving that damage over into Haunt and the DoT effects themselves to compensate. We still want Malefic Grasp to be your primary filler for single target DPS, but this will make it a bit less punishing when you can't afford to channel it (especially in PvP). Haunt will once again be interrupted by movement, in favor of the Fel Flame change.

There's been a couple adjustments to the level 90 talents as well. Both Kil'Jaeden's Cunning and Mannoroth's Fury have had their cooldowns and durations lowered to 60 and 10 seconds, respectively. Mannoroth's Fury now only applies to the core AoE damage spells (Seed of Corruption, Hellfire, Immolation Aura, and Rain of Fire), but increases their damage by 100% while active in addition to the range increase. Note that Rain of Fire is being changed to no longer generate enough Burning Embers to be worth using in a single target rotation (so, Destruction shouldn't feel forced into Mannoroth's Fury).

These should hopefully be hitting the PTR in the next build. Once again, please remember that we're very early in the 5.4 development process. Any or all of this may still change before the patch goes live.

Lore, Community Manager.

So now Fel Flame is basically Scorch. Way to go, more similarities to mages! Yeah it's PTR blablabla, but we've all known that even if we're at the start, thigns might not end up changing unless you motion for them enough. If such a change goes live, I don't think I'll ever go back to my warlock. I see this change as an actual nerf, especially in PvP...

[Deleted]

I like these changes. MG damage nerf will probably kill GoSac for affli and will make the current T16 2pc bonus worse. And its possible that affliction might even have best AoE since that 100% damage bonus doesn't affect FnB for destro and HoG, Chaos Wave, Void Ray and Carrion Swarm for demo. If that 100% damage increase applies to corruption from SoC then it's going to be single target dps increase to take it.

I'm eager to wait and see what numbers they come up with for MG and Dots. But i think these are very big step for right direction, I just they don't butcher the numbers.

[xskarma]

BIG update, source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...?page=111#2202

Got a few updates for you guys. Standard disclaimer applies that this is all still in early testing and subject to change.

Fel Flame has gotten a slight rework. It now has a 1.5 second cast time, but can always be cast while moving. Also, it no longer extends the duration of damage over time effects (and, as such, no longer causes them to lose their "snapshotted" stats) and has gotten a small damage buff. The intent here is that you should be able to use this to keep up some damage when you need to move, but you'll want to stick to your standard rotation otherwise.

Looking specifically at Affliction, we're lowering the bonus damage that Malefic Grasp provides and moving that damage over into Haunt and the DoT effects themselves to compensate. We still want Malefic Grasp to be your primary filler for single target DPS, but this will make it a bit less punishing when you can't afford to channel it (especially in PvP). Haunt will once again be interrupted by movement, in favor of the Fel Flame change.

There's been a couple adjustments to the level 90 talents as well. Both Kil'Jaeden's Cunning and Mannoroth's Fury have had their cooldowns and durations lowered to 60 and 10 seconds, respectively. Mannoroth's Fury now only applies to the core AoE damage spells (Seed of Corruption, Hellfire, Immolation Aura, and Rain of Fire), but increases their damage by 100% while active in addition to the range increase. Note that Rain of Fire is being changed to no longer generate enough Burning Embers to be worth using in a single target rotation (so, Destruction shouldn't feel forced into Mannoroth's Fury).

These should hopefully be hitting the PTR in the next build. Once again, please remember that we're very early in the 5.4 development process. Any or all of this may still change before the patch goes live.

[Grizelda]

The nerf to RoF is horrible.

The embers generated are necessary for our survival via ember tap in PvP.

The rapid ticks are great for coaxing procs.

Gives value to haste.

It's an instant that we can cast on the move. It's a hard blow since we're also losing mobility.

Personally I like it in the rotation. Just flavor wise.

Main concerns seem to be the targeting mechanism and the short cast time.

Give it a HoG style glyph. Reduce the damage and extend cast time.

Don't ruin whats good. Improve where you can.


The cast time to Fel Flame may give value to haste but it makes FF interruptible LOL.

[Arrogant Bastard]

BIG update, source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...?page=111#2202

Got a few updates for you guys. Standard disclaimer applies that this is all still in early testing and subject to change.

Fel Flame has gotten a slight rework. It now has a 1.5 second cast time, but can always be cast while moving. Also, it no longer extends the duration of damage over time effects (and, as such, no longer causes them to lose their "snapshotted" stats) and has gotten a small damage buff. The intent here is that you should be able to use this to keep up some damage when you need to move, but you'll want to stick to your standard rotation otherwise.

Looking specifically at Affliction, we're lowering the bonus damage that Malefic Grasp provides and moving that damage over into Haunt and the DoT effects themselves to compensate. We still want Malefic Grasp to be your primary filler for single target DPS, but this will make it a bit less punishing when you can't afford to channel it (especially in PvP). Haunt will once again be interrupted by movement, in favor of the Fel Flame change.

There's been a couple adjustments to the level 90 talents as well. Both Kil'Jaeden's Cunning and Mannoroth's Fury have had their cooldowns and durations lowered to 60 and 10 seconds, respectively. Mannoroth's Fury now only applies to the core AoE damage spells (Seed of Corruption, Hellfire, Immolation Aura, and Rain of Fire), but increases their damage by 100% while active in addition to the range increase. Note that Rain of Fire is being changed to no longer generate enough Burning Embers to be worth using in a single target rotation (so, Destruction shouldn't feel forced into Mannoroth's Fury).

These should hopefully be hitting the PTR in the next build. Once again, please remember that we're very early in the 5.4 development process. Any or all of this may still change before the patch goes live.

And it gets worse.

Bye Destro, it was fun. Losing Ember Generation with KjC and now RoF will cripple Destruction. Surely will not be PvPing as Destruction.

Really do not see how this is going to help Affliction, perhaps multi-dot. Buffing DoT's/Haunt is just going to make the times when you cannot channel MG hurt even more. It is almost like they know this is a poorly thought out change. It is a change that really should wait till the next expansion. Changing it in the last patch prior to an expansion launch is rather short-sighted as I am sure we will have to re-learn everything over again.

[xskarma]

The nerf to RoF is horrible.

The embers generated are necessary for our survival via ember tap in PvP.

The rapid ticks are great for coaxing procs.

Gives value to haste.

It's an instant that we can cast on the move. It's a hard blow since we're also losing mobility.

Personally I like it in the rotation. Just flavor wise.

Main concerns seem to be the targeting mechanism and the short cast time.

Give it a HoG style glyph. Reduce the damage and extend cast time.

Don't ruin whats good. Improve where you can.


The cast time to Fel Flame may give value to haste but it makes FF interuptable LOL.

We allready knew this was coming. Destro will be compensated elsewhere, I don't doubt.

I also think we need to give Blizz credit for being quick and decisive about their solutions to this mess. We'll need to see this in action, but they've made some solid changes it seems.

[Grizelda]

I think you read a different blue post then I did

or maybe I'm focused on the Destro implications.

quick and decisive decisions =/= good decisions

[kenshinag]

Just reading the new changes. I'm pretty excited since they're similar to what I've been asking for, for a while.

What I wanted was:
1. Fel Flame to no longer rewrite over our buffed dots.
2. Fel Flame to be buffed (either it's base dmg or something to the effect of my point below) so it will be our movement spell in place of MG and we won't see a huge drop in DPS.
3. If our dots were the same strength then make Fel Flame tick all the dots on target an extra time every time FF hits (exactly like how MG works, just not channeled). If not...
4. Take some of the dmg out of MG channeling and put it back into the dots and haunt so it hurts dramatically less to lose MG channel time. Or...
5. Leave everything the same and make MG cast-able while moving. Or...
6. Make MG a spell like shammy shocks where it's instant casts (with short CD) and does whatever base dmg MG does currently, then places the MG "debuff" on the target for 3 seconds or whatever MG's current channel time is (modified by haste) which gives us extra dot ticks during the duration of it. This allows it to be mobile and since it's instant and it'll get a CD that they can adjust to whatever they want our dmg to be since we're apparently doing more dmg than we're supposed to because of KjC.

Glad they're also listening to the outcry about how the talents weren't really good and they reduced the CD on the spells. For example, it should take you 5-8 seconds to move from a door in Horridon to the next. Those extra 8-10 seconds on the KjC ability weren't really needed. We also move more often than every 1.5 minutes, so the reduction to a minute is a step in the right direction. The MF change is kind of a mixed bag. With that, we needed a longer duration of the buff to make it worthwhile to hit all the adds! (insert meme). With the damage buff, it might be worth taking on fights that need burst AoE, such as Lei Shen. The only thing they really need to look at is how AV works. I get that you can leave it as a passive extra DPS talent on fights that have lots of AoE incoming dmg, but the extra DPS was not nearly balanced to the extra AoE from MF or the 100% DPS uptime of KjC. Plus there are sources of AoE dmg that don't go back into a target thus making the talent useless, making this talent extremely situational. If there was a way to make it targeted like how the on-use function work, but passively? Maybe making it into a long lasting debuff like CoE? Or maybe this talent just bakes the new effect into CoE so it's nothing extra to maintain. They could use balance this by spec like how GoSac works and it'd also be another solution to our movement situation with KjC going.

Very excited to see changes. I like playstyle changes. They keep me interested. If it was up to me, I'd have a expansion style playstyle change every non-raid patch, so you can learn it on all your farm bosses (so it doesn't add an extra pain to progression) and through the next raid, then you have to learn it again in a few months on your farm bosses. Sounds like a lot of fun!

[Szarala]

so.. now Aff has NO instant dmg?

[Grizelda]

...You can instant damage yourself. With life tap.