5.4 Inquisition

[cletis1234]

this idea is abhorrent. I would NEVER use sacred shield if it reduced my DPS. not in PvE, not in PvP. what you're suggesting is as foolish as rogues losing damage when they use TotT, or warriors losing their crit chance when they use their banner.

Regardless of how viable my idea is, hopefully I was able to make my intent clear. Getting rid of Inquisition and giving Ret a few more dynamic and fundamental things to do and spend their resources on would go a long way in helping the spec be unique on its own.

As it stands, we have very little uses for PVP power. From a PVP perspective, we only have 2 very important abilities worth considering; Inquisition and Templar's Verdict. Word of Glory is kind of out of the equation because it heals so little compared to Selfless Healer, but it still has its uses. But given these two spells that are vying for the same resources, you really need to ask yourself - is that all Ret paladins are capable of?

We need something else. Whats the point of retrofitting our class with Holy Power, but not properly giving us any abilities or utility to take advantage of our new resource. Something that you might want to think about when to use. Or something that simply doesn't have anything to do with us dealing damage, but more along the lines of group support and utility that's not on a horribly long cooldown.

Instead of keeping Inquisition as a core part of our rotation/Holy Power resource consumer, why not get rid of it and balance the spec around more flavorful and unique spells that do the Paladin class justice. Something true to being a defender of the light, defender of the innocent. We had a lot more of that going on in WOTLK across all three specs, and those were the best days for Paladins.

[Nairobi]

Regardless of how viable my idea is, hopefully I was able to make my intent clear. Getting rid of Inquisition and giving Ret a few more dynamic and fundamental things to do and spend their resources on would go a long way in helping the spec be unique on its own.

As it stands, we have very little uses for PVP power. From a PVP perspective, we only have 2 very important abilities worth considering; Inquisition and Templar's Verdict. Word of Glory is kind of out of the equation because it heals so little compared to Selfless Healer, but it still has its uses. But given these two spells that are vying for the same resources, you really need to ask yourself - is that all Ret paladins are capable of?

We need something else. Whats the point of retrofitting our class with Holy Power, but not properly giving us any abilities or utility to take advantage of our new resource. Something that you might want to think about when to use. Or something that simply doesn't have anything to do with us dealing damage, but more along the lines of group support and utility that's not on a horribly long cooldown.

Instead of keeping Inquisition as a core part of our rotation/Holy Power resource consumer, why not get rid of it and balance the spec around more flavorful and unique spells that do the Paladin class justice. Something true to being a defender of the light, defender of the innocent. We had a lot more of that going on in WOTLK across all three specs, and those were the best days for Paladins.

That whole quest for RP-stuff notwithstanding, what do you actually want to be able to do with your HoPo as Ret?

Prot gets: ShotR and WOG, so Dmg redux (and DPS) vs a heal
Holy gets: WOG/EF and LOD, so ST vs AOE heal
Ret gets: Inq, TV (or DS), and WOG. Dmg/crit buff, DPS, and heal.

Ret already has 50% more choices than Holy or Prot, albeit not exactly thrilling choices. Still, this is very similar to our cousins the Feral. They can use CPs on their buff, or DOT vs Burst, or a stun. So, buff vs DPS vs utility. How many other choices are there that you want to pick from? How are you saying that we don't "have the ability to use our HoPo"? Not everything has to be about damage, and frankly thats a HUGE part of the RetPal toolkit. If you're not playing Ret as support, I daresay you're playing it wrong.

I'm not here to bash anyone's ideas, but...given what you suggested at first, I don't think anyone would use SS unless it was so grossly OP that it warranted a nerf. Likewise, further posts have basically been "I dont like Inq and want it to go away, but give us something cool instead. And no, I dont know what that would be".

Playing a CP class that has 17 things to spend CP's on is not fun or interesting if you actually play it, since basically you're going to reduce it to the LCD anyway and find the best "bang for your buck". If we had 4 different "flavors" of TV, we'd have it mapped out in ~2 hours which one to use 99% of the time.

So no, Inq is fine as it is unless someone can come up with both a brilliant reason to remove it AND a brilliant replacement. The spec doesn't need more dumbing down or more pointless flash; if you want to fix something, focus your efforts on personal survivability (PVP) or non-clunky-as-fuck AOE (PVE).

[cletis1234]

Orrrrrr Dump Inq and bring back SotC, and Consumable Seals (to some extent).

When you say bringing back old seal system, do you mean the way Paladins used to have to seal twist back in TBC?

---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 12:54 PM ----------

So no, Inq is fine as it is unless someone can come up with both a brilliant reason to remove it AND a brilliant replacement. The spec doesn't need more dumbing down or more pointless flash; if you want to fix something, focus your efforts on personal survivability (PVP) or non-clunky-as-fuck AOE (PVE).

Personally, I am in favor of more personal survivability. And I agree, the AOE rotation is terrible. But the problem is that we have little choice in our rotational abilities. And those rotational abilities are balanced around building 3 HP and then dumping them. I'd like to see something not tied to HP, or if it is tied to HP, give us an extra rotational ability that works in some utility in some way. Many classes can do interesting things with their rotational spells, like some spells having secondary effects etc.

I don't know. I'm just lusting for something that defines Ret more than Holy or Prot. I'd say the biggest thing that defines the Paladin class is our bubbles. Which is why to some extent, I'd like to see Sacred Shield added back baseline at least for Ret so as to address our survivability issues.

[Deleted]

Regardless of how viable my idea is, hopefully I was able to make my intent clear. Getting rid of Inquisition and giving Ret a few more dynamic and fundamental things to do and spend their resources on would go a long way in helping the spec be unique on its own.

As it stands, we have very little uses for PVP power. From a PVP perspective, we only have 2 very important abilities worth considering; Inquisition and Templar's Verdict. Word of Glory is kind of out of the equation because it heals so little compared to Selfless Healer, but it still has its uses. But given these two spells that are vying for the same resources, you really need to ask yourself - is that all Ret paladins are capable of?

We need something else. Whats the point of retrofitting our class with Holy Power, but not properly giving us any abilities or utility to take advantage of our new resource. Something that you might want to think about when to use. Or something that simply doesn't have anything to do with us dealing damage, but more along the lines of group support and utility that's not on a horribly long cooldown.

Instead of keeping Inquisition as a core part of our rotation/Holy Power resource consumer, why not get rid of it and balance the spec around more flavorful and unique spells that do the Paladin class justice. Something true to being a defender of the light, defender of the innocent. We had a lot more of that going on in WOTLK across all three specs, and those were the best days for Paladins.

Dude, in not one of your posts did you explain what makes Inquisition so bad/bland/boring/etc and what is your proposed <insert new flavoured and more dynamic things>.

You just want to get rid of Inquisition because it is, the horror, so hard to keep it up. Let's stop playing around the bush and be honest: you've just set your eyes on a non-issue (Inquisition) and stubbornly don't want to see other antique and absolete problems we need addressed:
- HotR target requirement;
- very small radius for HotR and DS and quite small damage on 2-3 enemies;
- no to mention the seal change which is much-much more dull/bland/boring.

I don't play too many classes, but I don't recall any other class/spec having to do similar stuff to switch from single target to AOE. And I don't refer to using other abilities, but needing to waste 2 GCDs for that.
Blizzard balanced those 2 abilities for 10+ enemies, not for 2-3 enemies, the usual count of adds in a boss fight (Horridon and, later on, Lei Shen, breaking the pattern by a long margin )

[Nairobi]

When you say bringing back old seal system, do you mean the way Paladins used to have to seal twist back in TBC?

I'd personally like this and have suggested an idea prior to remove/replace Inq with a version of seal-twisting.

Inquisition (Retribution): Your Seal abilities are no longer on the GCD. In addition, your successful Judgement hits grant you increased combat prowess for a short time (10 seconds), based on the current seal. This effect refreshes and stacks up to 3 times.

Truth - Increases Holy damage done by 10/20/30% and Critical Strike chance by 3/6/9% - (basically what we have now with Inq up)

Righteousness - Causes all abilities to deal 20/40/60% of their damage split to nearby targets (we now have moderate and passive cleave, at the cost of Holy dmg and Crit, to prevent DS damage scaling out of control)

Justice - Increases your movement speed by 10/20/30% and reduces the duration of movement/control imparing effects by 5/10/15% (makes a good situation PVP seal, either for kiting or chasing)

Light - Increases all healing done and received by 10/20/30% and reduces damage taken by 5/10/15% (basically Ret "defensive stance"; gives up our seal damage but buffs our healing taken and double dips on self-healing taken, with some minor dmg redux)


You could try and game keeping up two 3-stacks (like twisting Truth and Righteousness for the Holy dmg/crit AND the cleave, or twisting Light and Justice in PVP for the movement speed and defensive/support abilities), but would be difficult given the short duration. You could, of course, leave on one seal only if you were lazy/bad with timing, but it would reward good play. Edit: what's more likely, given the state of the game and its audience now, is that they'd just allow us to have 2 seals active at once, now that I think about it...since they'd have to balance around what the top 1% CAN do, and what the bottom 50% CANNOT even think of.

Sure, numbers prob need tweaked, but it would make seals more than "fire-n-forget".

Personally, I am in favor of more personal survivability. And I agree, the AOE rotation is terrible. But the problem is that we have little choice in our rotational abilities. And those rotational abilities are balanced around building 3 HP and then dumping them. I'd like to see something not tied to HP, or if it is tied to HP, give us an extra rotational ability that works in some utility in some way. Many classes can do interesting things with their rotational spells, like some spells having secondary effects etc.

I don't know. I'm just lusting for something that defines Ret more than Holy or Prot. I'd say the biggest thing that defines the Paladin class is our bubbles. Which is why to some extent, I'd like to see Sacred Shield added back baseline at least for Ret so as to address our survivability issues.

Sadly, what defines us is also what keeps us from ever evolving, for some reason. I'd LOVE to get rid of bubble in its current incarnation, and move to a different type of "defense", at least as an option.

Moving to a 2.5min CD is a step in the right direction, but is still longer than other, more effective immunity-like effects AND comes at the cost of a (very strong, in Clemency) talent. I'd much rather have Cata SS back as baseline for Ret, with some increased reliance on healing (like WW monks....who got all the shit we SHOULD have had) instaed of a clunky 8-sec Immunity and other "defenses" that are unable to be used in rated play. I'd LOVE to see something like ToK for Ret, since it's like...ya know...retributive. You hit me, you get damaged; that used to be how we worked, and I think we need to get back there via something similar to ToK as a Ret ability.

[cletis1234]

Dude, in not one of your posts did you explain what makes Inquisition so bad/bland/boring/etc and what is your proposed <insert new flavoured and more dynamic things>.

You just want to get rid of Inquisition because it is, the horror, so hard to keep it up. Let's stop playing around the bush and be honest: you've just set your eyes on a non-issue (Inquisition) and stubbornly don't want to see other antique and absolete problems we need addressed:

I made this post to discuss Inquisition, and its not like I'm shooting anyone down if they want to bring up something about the spec that they aren't happy with. In fact I agree with you on everything you touched upon. But I'll be a little more clear on why i think Inquisition is bad.

To quote one of my posts from an older thread:

"Here's the problem with the way we work. We simply don't bring enough to the table from a PVP perspective. How can we adequately DPS and provide support while we juggle our damage and our healing done because of the way Holy Power works? We are a melee class, but we aren't given any tools to really survive through the thick of things. In the event that I do get a chance to do some damage, every class I face can put me exactly where they want me, and I can't do anything about it."

"In my case, I can't really DEAL when there's an abundance of CC, fears, huge burst, multiple stuns in a row. How can I deal with this when I have to worry about spending the first 3 Holy Power that I get on Inquisition? But I should be able to deal shouldn't I? I mean, what does a Hybrid class have that a Pure doesn't? HEALS! But not really. Not anymore. Every pure I face has a way to heal themselves. Or shield themselves. Or run away and leave me trapped in a deep freeze or something. And all the while, my Inquisition just ran out, and now I need to decide to refresh it, heal myself, or use my finisher. I'm gimping myself no matter what I choose, because I might get CC'd again right after I refresh Inq, I might die if I don't heal, or my damage won't matter if I don't refresh Inq, and I am in desperate need of Holy Power. You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't."

In conclusion, Inquisition sucks for Ret in PVP due to the dynamic nature of PVP encounters and how hard it can be to get HP when your being controlled. Unlike Ferals and Rogues, Paladins can't lock down a class to get the combo points they need. Maintenance buffs for Ferals and Rogues makes more sense because if they didn't have to work for that extra bit of damage, then they would be way too bursty in addition to the amount of control they have over you. Paladins simply don't have that kind of control, nor do they even have that kind of burst damage when Inquisition is up to begin with. We have our 2-minute window for amazing burst, but after that, even if we can maintain Inquisition, Paladins simply aren't putting out huge numbers, nor do they have any unique control or utility against other classes (like rogues or ferals) that needs to be balanced against having to maintain Inquisition.

Simply put, Inquisition does nothing for the Spec, and we aren't given anything to compensate or even to justify having to keep it up.

[Bijin]

In conclusion, Inquisition sucks for Ret in PVP due to the dynamic nature of PVP encounters and how hard it can be to get HP when your being controlled. Unlike Ferals and Rogues, Paladins can't lock down a class to get the combo points they need. Maintenance buffs for Ferals and Rogues makes more sense because if they didn't have to work for that extra bit of damage, then they would be way too bursty in addition to the amount of control they have over you. Paladins simply don't have that kind of control, nor do they even have that kind of burst damage when Inquisition is up to begin with. We have our 2-minute window for amazing burst, but after that, even if we can maintain Inquisition, Paladins simply aren't putting out huge numbers, nor do they have any unique control or utility against other classes (like rogues or ferals) that needs to be balanced against having to maintain Inquisition.

Simply put, Inquisition does nothing for the Spec, and we aren't given anything to compensate or even to justify having to keep it up.

In PvP i dont cast Inquisition, all HP is use for TV or WOG if need a extra heal... just simple...

The rogue make combo points faster than pallys, the druids too...

[Ramiell]

Stop. Just....stop.

Stop tacking on graphical shit to abilities and claim that they are now "interesting". It's ruining the class.

Here's a shitty ability. But look, now we made it glow! Now it's 50% less shitty!

No, it's not. It's still shit, just it's shinier. What we need in order to fix "problems" like Inquisition (if you are of the opinion that it IS, in fact, a problem) is a mechanics or fundamental ability dynamic change. NOT. MORE. GRAPHICS.

I never said it was a good ability. Blizzard is obviously reluctant to change it significantly in this expansion. A graphical update would make it more appealing. Still not a good ability, but more appealing. A spoiler and a loud muffler on a crap car if you will.

Also, what's wrong with graphical updates to melee moves? A lot of the melee classes abilities are very bland as it is. Blizzard has stated that they intend to make improvements in that area to make them cooler to look at. If you don't like the graphics you can use the slider to tone them down. It's not like they are going to attack you through the screen or something. Also...I HAZ A CAPS BUTTON TOO!!!!!! Did I do that right?

[Nairobi]

I never said it was a good ability. Blizzard is obviously reluctant to change it significantly in this expansion. A graphical update would make it more appealing. Still not a good ability, but more appealing. A spoiler and a loud muffler on a crap car if you will.

Also, what's wrong with graphical updates to melee moves? A lot of the melee classes abilities are very bland as it is. Blizzard has stated that they intend to make improvements in that area to make them cooler to look at. If you don't like the graphics you can use the slider to tone them down. It's not like they are going to attack you through the screen or something. Also...I HAZ A CAPS BUTTON TOO!!!!!! Did I do that right?

That's a great analogy. Let's run with that, and notice that anyone who knows anything about vehicles, motorsports, or the like will spot someone in said "crap car" with their loud muffler and think of so many other things that the money/time/effort would have been better spent on. You're drawing attention to the fact that you're in a shitter, and pissing off everyone around you while still not going fast. Congratulations. If that's what's appealing to you, in the realm of vehicles or video games, by all means stick some fart-can mufflers, neon windshield sprayers, and whatever else you can find at PepBoys on your civic and go cruise the mall.

The lack of logic is overwhelming... I don't even know where to begin with the "turn the graphics down" idea, or the suggestion that they won't attack me (thanks for the reassurance). The fact of the matter is that with a finite amount of resources allocated to our class, and ergo to our development, refinement and implementation of class abilities, your miracle fix (for something that isn't even broken) is to add more fart-can mufflers to it.

So no, you didn't do it right.

---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 11:26 PM ----------

In PvP i dont cast Inquisition, all HP is use for TV or WOG if need a extra heal... just simple...

The rogue make combo points faster than pallys, the druids too...

Not sure if this is a serious suggestion, or a well-disguised troll to all the people who say Inq is hard.

[Ramiell]

That's a great analogy. Let's run with that, and notice that anyone who knows anything about vehicles, motorsports, or the like will spot someone in said "crap car" with their loud muffler and think of so many other things that the money/time/effort would have been better spent on. You're drawing attention to the fact that you're in a shitter, and pissing off everyone around you while still not going fast. Congratulations. If that's what's appealing to you, in the realm of vehicles or video games, by all means stick some fart-can mufflers, neon windshield sprayers, and whatever else you can find at PepBoys on your civic and go cruise the mall.

The lack of logic is overwhelming... I don't even know where to begin with the "turn the graphics down" idea, or the suggestion that they won't attack me (thanks for the reassurance). The fact of the matter is that with a finite amount of resources allocated to our class, and ergo to our development, refinement and implementation of class abilities, your miracle fix (for something that isn't even broken) is to add more fart-can mufflers to it.

So no, you didn't do it right.

---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 11:26 PM ----------



Not sure if this is a serious suggestion, or a well-disguised troll to all the people who say Inq is hard.

You seem to be trying to argue just for the sake of doing it. Maybe calm down a little. The "miricale fix" as you put it was Blizzards idea, not mine. They put a graphical effect on inquisition for Mists. I'm saying that it could have been a better one. What do you think would garner more attention from players and get those "Dude what is that on you? It's awesome looking." compliments? A set of sparkly hands or a set of glowing wings? If you add a greater incentive for using an ability, more people will use it. We have people in this thread stating that they don't even use Inquisition. That is clearly "doing it wrong", regardless if you like the ability or not.

How your character looks in game is a driving factor in the appeal of these types of games. Graphical effects fall under that umbrella. One need only take a look at the wild popularity of the Transmog system to see this.

A tricked out crap car that runs, still runs. However, it is still a crap car. I don't like Inquisition myself and I think that abilities like it need to be axed. If you like it or don't think it is an issue, that if totally fine too (I honestly can't tell what you are arguing for/about now).

BTW. There is a Graphic slider in the game for your characters spell effects. That is not. something that I made up. Might be hard to find things like this if you aren't a fan of visuals I guess.

[Austilias]

Loving the Inquisition change; definitely a quality of life change and a stark improvement from its current incarnation as the least efficient (highest cost/lowest) duration DPS maintenance buff in the game.

[Ealyssa]

Judgement, Exo, Crusader Strike, Inquisition. Whew, dat ramp up time.

You don't play ret right ?

[weak judgment + weak exo + weak CS + inquisition] is FAR lesser burst than [big judment + big exo + big CS + templar verdict]

inquisition not only weaken our initial damage, it also prevent our templar verdict use. And that's the real PVP utility : having to "waste" some holy power.

[exriel]

How your character looks in game is a driving factor in the appeal of these types of games for some people.

There, fixed that for you. I think he is saying that the graphical upgrade would not be a significant boon to his enjoyment of the game.

BTW. There is a Graphic slider in the game for your characters spell effects. That is not. something that I made up. Might be hard to find things like this if you aren't a fan of visuals I guess.

I don't think he was suggesting that it was impossible to turn off the graphics, just that it's not a valid solution for someone who didn't want the graphics in the first place.

[Tangra]

Loving the Inquisition change; definitely a quality of life change and a stark improvement from its current incarnation as the least efficient (highest cost/lowest) duration DPS maintenance buff in the game.

Yeah quality of life for PvE, much needed change for PvP. People can argue about skill caps all they want, the real problem with inquisition was that it turned Ret into a toothless cat in PvP by draining valuable globals and resources just as we are on the verge of applying real pressure to someone. The wasted global and 3 hp every 30 seconds is precisely want makes Ret's pressure pathetic between cooldowns. Perhaps the only downside will be that you now have to be absurdly awful to let Inquisition fall off during cooldowns, which was one of the only ways to tell a good ret from a bad one (especially in PvP where this was actually somewhat challenging), but oh well it was a lame mechanic and there are better ways to reward skill.

[Nairobi]

You seem to be trying to argue just for the sake of doing it. Maybe calm down a little. The "miricale fix" as you put it was Blizzards idea, not mine. They put a graphical effect on inquisition for Mists. I'm saying that it could have been a better one. What do you think would garner more attention from players and get those "Dude what is that on you? It's awesome looking." compliments? A set of sparkly hands or a set of glowing wings? If you add a greater incentive for using an ability, more people will use it. We have people in this thread stating that they don't even use Inquisition. That is clearly "doing it wrong", regardless if you like the ability or not.

I'm not really sure that you can, with ANY certainty, say that making an effect flashier will increase its [proper] use. If someone is that uninformed of how a class/spec works, that they need to rely on the "I want shiny!" mantra to have a reason to press a button, then we have far more glaring issues. Not saying that we don't as clearly this ability IS hard for SOME people, but even so, making it MORE shiny won't be a surefire way to make them better.

How your character looks in game is a driving factor in the appeal of these types of games. Graphical effects fall under that umbrella. One need only take a look at the wild popularity of the Transmog system to see this.

You're drawing parallels from 2 radically different ideals overall. One is a mechanic that one spec of one class has. Other is a sweeping game "selling point" that everyone uses. They're not related in the slightest, aside from the fact that they have aesthetic properties.

A tricked out crap car that runs, still runs. However, it is still a crap car. I don't like Inquisition myself and I think that abilities like it need to be axed. If you like it or don't think it is an issue, that if totally fine too (I honestly can't tell what you are arguing for/about now).

I'm not arguing for or against anything, except for the reduction in "Hi devs, please give us more of your limited attention and time to make us look flashier instead of actually fixing or adjusting important gameplay mechanics and decisions". For every GOOD post about how to positively change our spec/class, dev's have to wade through 3-5 posts about "we want more shiny" or "OMG NERF" or what have you. This is not specific to paladins, it's a community issue, I'm just campaigning to stop it for paladins. Hopefully then, we can get more interesting set bonuses than "X gives you divine storm!!!" because GC seems to think that EVERY paladin wants more flash and DS spam.

BTW. There is a Graphic slider in the game for your characters spell effects. That is not. something that I made up. Might be hard to find things like this if you aren't a fan of visuals I guess.

BTW 1) never said that I was not a fan of visuals, but I guess reading comprehension isn't a strong suit of yours, and 2) no matter how low I turn graphics (which would be a foolish thing to do for any raider or PVPer), it doesn't get us back time/effort wasted by the dev team in putting them there in the first place.

[Deleted]

OP is suggesting that you use a global and Holy Power for something that lowers damage you deal? Somehow I don't think people would ever use it.

[cletis1234]

Yea, maybe reducing our damage every time we cast Sacred Shield isn't too attractive. Hopefully, at least it kind of seemed interesting and balanced? I just didn't want to propose a clearly overpowered ability, so I tried to balance it out with us sacrificing damage for more survival.

[Exac]

Inquisition is supposed to gaurentee that we aren't OP in PvP, while allowing us to compete in PvE. Some time after the introduction of Inquisition, Blizzard decided that ret paladins do not, in fact, need to be competitive DPS, and we have remained plate-haste gear soaks ever since.

[Austilias]

Inquisition is supposed to gaurentee that we aren't OP in PvP, while allowing us to compete in PvE. Some time after the introduction of Inquisition, Blizzard decided that ret paladins do not, in fact, need to be competitive DPS, and we have remained plate-haste gear soaks ever since.

I'm not sure where that notion comes from. Ret Paladins may be one of the most 'support' themed DPS, but it would be entirely wrong to say they don't have competitive DPS; indeed, Ret Paladin burst is essentially unmatched, and this change will allow us to compete even better beyond our CDs.

[Ealyssa]

and this change will allow us to compete even better beyond our CDs.

It will ONLY let us compete beyond our CD. We allready burst under CD+inq, that wont change. It's only our really poor PVP sustained damage that will benefit from this buff.