Vanilla Raids did have some strategy - Nefarian

[Brewce]

Classic Raids certainly had more mechanics and strategies than they're currently being given credit for, either because the mechanic has since been nerf'd / removed, or simply because those doing the raids are doing so on characters above level 60 with gear not original to classic. The extra armor/stats/lvls will certainly increase one's ability to ignore most encounter mechanics that were / are required for level 60 characters, so most have no idea what the original version of a specific Classic encounter was like, and more than likely, never will.

Anyway, back to Nefarian......this boss is currently bug'd...bad.

When you get to 30% and all the adds pop back up, there are at least 4-5 more than there should be.

There's a thread on the Offical Forums about it, no response yet..

[Tojara]

Of course they had strategy, but the meta game of raiding has evolved so much since then.

Vanilla raids were more gear checks and restricted roles more than any either cycle in this game. You only had several "REAL" DPS classes and all of those classes were very easy to play, most of them being 1-3 buttons, many of them using just a couple. Some classes these days are still like that, but most are far more complicated than several vanilla classes rolled into one.

People didn't share strategies like they do today, there wasn't a dungeon journal nor was there mass PTR experience. A lot of bosses were also bugged at the start.

We didn't have a lot in Vanilla so realistically you couldn't expect them to expand a lot on encounters. Class utility was very low. Blizzard as a whole was stuck in the EQ mindset of raiding for the first couple tiers with bosses that couldn't be taunted, interrupted or stunned. Once they released AQ they expanded upon this and put these type of mechanics in the game to make them ever more engaging. Stunning Sartura (A BOSS!) was unheard of back then, as was actually using interrupts on Prophet Skeram.

Raiding has just evolved and so haven't the players. It's not so much that raiding in Vanilla was easy because it certainly isn't. It's just that looking back those encounters don't stand the test of time, people are just better and expect more out of a boss these days.

[Orcindauh]

but the meta game of raiding has evolved so much since then.

Amen, so true.

[antelope591]

The difficulty in vanilla fights wasnt in fight complexity it was in logistics. Something like loatheb takes 2 sec to explain but if u knew how much prep it took for each pull with pots/flasks/ony buff/za buff for 40 people....enough said. Raiding is def easier now at a non-heroic level at least. But even so there were bosses like cthun, four horsemen, twin emps, kel thuzad which were as complicated as 90% of fights today

[Tekkommo]

I do not get why many believe Vanilla raids were so easy, going through it at the time (and with 40 people), it was a challenge.

Because most people who say it didn't, didn't actually do it.

I remember every raid in vanilla being a challenge when I first stepped foot in it. BWL was a big step up from MC as a Tank, I can't speak from a dps'ers pov in vanilla, but I am sure they had it far easier than tanks did.

A lot of the raids were nerfed over time as well, so if you did the raids a long time after release, it was much easier than it first was.

People have to remember that we had less spells to use as well, aoe tanking was a challenge (even single target was at times, keeping high TPS was a great challenge which is long gone now), as was aoe healing, I think only priests had decent aoe healing back then. Every class is just far more better equipped to handle the fights these days, back then they weren't.

Being 40 man, you would always carry bads, but that has continued in 25 man and I've seen it in 10 man as well.

[javen]

BWL was really them figuring out raids in a big way, but MC was kind of a cluster of nonsense. It was more about figuring out how to get everyone in position, than executing specific mechanics.

[antelope591]

Because most people who say it didn't, didn't actually do it.

I remember every raid in vanilla being a challenge when I first stepped foot in it. BWL was a big step up from MC as a Tank, I can't speak from a dps'ers pov in vanilla, but I am sure they had it far easier than tanks did.

Actually dps in vanilla was arguably harder than any other point because u had to manage threat and it was very easy to pull aggro off tank if u went all out...until the threat meter mod came out anyway

[Tekkommo]

Actually dps in vanilla was arguably harder than any other point because u had to manage threat and it was very easy to pull aggro off tank if u went all out...until the threat meter mod came out anyway

Good point. It's sad that threat doesn't matter anymore.

[Deleted]

Anyone who says vanilla raid bosses were just tank and spank simply didn't play back then. Only some of MC was tank and spank, the rest of the raids required tactics. The vast majority of raid bosses in vanilla were impossible without proper tactics and coordination. I'd like to see someone tank and spank Razorgore, Ebonroc, Chromaggus, Nefarian, Jin'do, Ossirian, Twin Emperors, C'thun, Razuvious, Heigan, Thaddius or Four Horsemen, to name some.

And please consider that back then, people just starting to raid hardly even knew that you had designated healers and tanks, people would just zerg everything and hope to succeed. The entire raiding culture was different, almost everyone was clueless. Organizing a raid group full with people who had never raided was a gigantic mess. Only people who had done 4 or 5 raids were actually any good.

At least from TBC onward you see 5 man dungeons requiring some tactics so that all players learn some basics. That's why it's now easier to inform new players of a new raid, the raiding culture has changed. It's a lot more streamlined now. That also explains why bosses can become more complex, since most people now understand the basics.

I'd say relatively vanilla was harder because raiding was a huge step up from dungeons. Nowadays it's much easier to gradually roll into raiding.

[Hubbl3]

I guess I made this post in response to many blurbs over the past months stating how easy raiding was in Vanilla compared to now.

A second point is maybe the mechanics of current fights are just adding phase after phase (and gimmicks?) instead of perhaps going back to basics and the root.

But it was easy. I played very bad back then compared to now and I never had any trouble at any fight. Yeah, you had to do some special tactics to beat the encounter like OoC-rezzes, healer-rotations, etc. But the fights were not hard. The hardest part was not getting aggro as a DD before KTM got released. Yes, some parts were interesting, like stance dance to avoid fear (except you played alliance and fearwarded everything, ezmode bosses!), healing was different back then, downranking and mana saving (= interupt heals when they are not necessary to save mana). Up to late AQ40 or Naxxramas the mechanics were VERY forgiving and mostly a joke. Late AQ40 and Naxxramas were special and that was also the time when your raid was punished for having bad players because in these instances the mechanics don't only kill the person who fails (no one cares about that) but mostly a large chunk of the raid also.

TL;DR Was vanilla raiding easy? Yes, for the most part it was very, very, very easy. Does that mean there was no tactic required whatsoever? No. You needed tactics. But you could beat most bosses with a fraction of the raid alive. I solohealed Nef 30 -> 0% because all the other heals died in the 2nd add phase (bone construct). We had one tank alive and very few dds. Nef went down with no problems.

[Deleted]

Actually dps in vanilla was arguably harder than any other point because u had to manage threat and it was very easy to pull aggro off tank if u went all out...until the threat meter mod came out anyway

Yeah, I remember countless wipes on Vaelastrasz because it was incredibly hard for DPS to not take aggro. A few bosses in ZG had this problem as well. And Razorgore along with one of the bugs and Ossirian in AQ20 were the first that required actual kiting, something hardly anyone knew of back then.

Vanilla didn't really prepare people for what they would face at a higher level, you weren't getting eased in.

First you have normal lvl 60 dungeons, then you have Stratholme, Scholomance, LBRS/UBRS which are already a step up since they required 10 people back at the time. Then you get beginning of MC or ZG, which is a step up again. Then the rest of MC is a bit harder than the first few bosses. Then BWL is a huge step up from MC, suddenly requiring kiting, stancedancing, taunt rotations and noticing line of sight. Then AQ40 is a bit more of the same, but the last few bosses are again a step up from BWL. And then finally you have Naxx, don't even get me started on Four Horsemen tank rotation.

When you look at it like that, vanilla had an incredibly steep learning curve.

Whereas when you raided in WotLK or beyond there was hardly anything new, if you knew the basics of raiding you knew everything there is to know. Just need to some time to adjust to a particular boss, there weren't any hidden surprises or tactics nobody heard of before.

[Grogo]

But it was easy. I played very bad back then compared to now and I never had any trouble at any fight. Yeah, you had to do some special tactics to beat the encounter like OoC-rezzes, healer-rotations, etc. But the fights were not hard. The hardest part was not getting aggro as a DD before KTM got released. Yes, some parts were interesting, like stance dance to avoid fear (except you played alliance and fearwarded everything, ezmode bosses!), healing was different back then, downranking and mana saving (= interupt heals when they are not necessary to save mana). Up to late AQ40 or Naxxramas the mechanics were VERY forgiving and mostly a joke. Late AQ40 and Naxxramas were special and that was also the time when your raid was punished for having bad players because in these instances the mechanics don't only kill the person who fails (no one cares about that) but mostly a large chunk of the raid also.

TL;DR Was vanilla raiding easy? Yes, for the most part it was very, very, very easy. Does that mean there was no tactic required whatsoever? No. You needed tactics. But you could beat most bosses with a fraction of the raid alive. I solohealed Nef 30 -> 0% because all the other heals died in the 2nd add phase (bone construct). We had one tank alive and very few dds. Nef went down with no problems.

I have to disagree but then again we may be talking apples oranges here. One thing that people tend to forget is team aspects versus tactical aspects versus commitment aspects.

Players may have an easier time skill-wise dpsing perhaps but maybe not, it depends. Looking at it all as a whole players had to watch agro, it was a big factor, heal agro was big, buying itno a team concept where dps had to ride the line of doing great dps and not pulling added a whole new skill level to the game that is missing now. Team sacrifice and team players were so important in that aspect. People had roles and wanted to be good at them, it all seemed to tie into everything else a lot more holistically than the current way.

It was a different feel but I feel it worked much better now than the current set up. I am sure people can name many nuances about the game "back then" that people do not realize in todays game and how those nuances tied a lot together. Was there some negative aspects? Yes of course but it was still great.

Add that the classes all felt so much more different than they do now. I also have to say while I know many like the new features of the modern WoW, I still prefer talent trees, no LFR and no heroic versions. The game also seemed a darker atmosphere to me as well. I should really keep this thread on track to raid difficulty comparisons to then and now though

[Tojara]

I raided all though Vanilla from the very beginning. Back then I would believe there was some mass execution going on or strategy, but encounters looking back look pitifully easy. It wasn't just Molten Core either, it was a lot of bosses in Blackwing Lair too, especially the middle ones! This isn't me looking back from MoP to Vanilla, this was ME looking back when I was doing Naxxramas (IN VANILLA) wondering how the fuck some guilds on my server took months to kill Magmadar. A boss where you simply didn't stand in front of, had a warrior swap to berserker stance and 2-3 hunters casting tranquilizing shot when he gets bigger. It's rather pathetic. Magmadar isn't the only example either.

Enrage timers didn't even enter the equation until AQ, so don't even try to tell me that DPS was important at the beginning. Unless you were a rogue/warrior (warrior REQUIRED drops other wise did pathetic DPS) or possibly a hunter, you didn't do meaningful DPS. You were there for buffs, debuffs or the very limited utility the game had. This became readily apparent to me when a lot of DPS would die and you could still beat the encounter. These days if you have a lot of your members die you don't meet the enrage and you will wipe. There where dozens of encounters were you could float along for minutes at a time down nearly a quarter of your raid and still land a kill. How many encounters are like that today?

I'm not saying enrage timers are the right way to do things, but they certainly put more emphasis and strategy on your DPS.

Again it's a different meta game compared to today. The game was setup differently and real 'strategy' in my opinion really didn't take form until AQ came about. Most of the games difficulty was based on gear, threat and basic knowledge of how the game works. It wasn't based (for DPS classes) on having to know how to maximize damage at the beginning of it. Most classes scaled terribly or were INEFFECTIVE (read MAGE until they could go fire in AQ because of immunities) on certain encounters because of immunities.

The game today emphasizes tighter enrages, more strategy (because there are more abilities) and more subtle things that most people know.

Lack of overall strategy doesn't mean the game wasn't difficult though, Vanilla was still difficult just for different reasons. It wasn't difficult for it's vast repertoire of complicated boss abilities, because bosses didn't have very many. Open up the dungeon journal and just look at Horridon. If you combine all the doors, Horridons abilities and Jalak at 30%, you have more mechanics in a single boss than the entirety of Molten Core. Slight exaggeration, but not by much.

Like mentioned above me. I did normal Nefarian countless times where the sub 20% zerg resulted in the majority of our raid dying, and the last 12 or so people slowly killing the boss for like 4 minutes.

[Grogo]

Like mentioned above me. I did normal Nefarian countless times where the sub 20% zerg resulted in the majority of our raid dying, and the last 12 or so people slowly killing the boss for like 4 minutes.

What about the countless times you may have wiped before that or got to that last 20% and didnt close the deal?

[TJ]

Good point. It's sad that threat doesn't matter anymore.

Dropping threat never required skill... You blow your cd's and go high in threat and have to stop attacking for a few seconds, no skill in that. The fact that the dps were limited by threat is pretty stupid, anyway. Especially for classes with basic high threat and big cd's.

At the start of Cata, our Warrior and Ret would need constant salv's at the start and if they didn't then they were dead. I'm glad threat on actual bosses doesn't exist anymore, maybe if they involved a certain mechanic involving the threat then it would be interesting, but the base threat is boring

[Recom]

You forgot the key point of the strat : prot wars spamming War Cry to aggro the mobs in p1 !

[Tekkommo]

Dropping threat never required skill... You blow your cd's and go high in threat and have to stop attacking for a few seconds, no skill in that. The fact that the dps were limited by threat is pretty stupid, anyway. Especially for classes with basic high threat and big cd's.

At the start of Cata, our Warrior and Ret would need constant salv's at the start and if they didn't then they were dead. I'm glad threat on actual bosses doesn't exist anymore, maybe if they involved a certain mechanic involving the threat then it would be interesting, but the base threat is boring

You had some pretty shit tanks then, that's why I think threat matters, it shows a good and bad tank stand out.

[Grogo]

You forgot the key point of the strat : prot wars spamming War Cry to aggro the mobs in p1 !

That is a great point but I remember this as well. We learned ( I was GM at the time) the door method like the strat says and when Blizzard nerfed the shout (wasnt it dem shout?) it screwed the guilds that were using it and who had never learned the "real" way. It didnt affect us at all but it did screw with many other guilds.

---------- Post added 2013-06-19 at 08:10 PM ----------

You had some pretty shit tanks then, that's why I think threat matters, it shows a good and bad tank stand out.

I wouldnt call them shitty but you are right in that it show the skill levels of a good and challenged tank.

---------- Post added 2013-06-19 at 08:11 PM ----------

Also consider there wasnt the raid strat support there is now too, guilds kept their strats pretty close to themselves.

[Deleted]

It's not that the encounters were hard, it was the players' tools that were clunky and organizing the 40 players were a logistical problem.

I mean, the first time we had an encounter that we had to move because crap on the floor was on AQ40. Everything before was basic "follow the lead and stand on your place".

---------- Post added 2013-06-19 at 09:36 PM ----------

Dropping threat never required skill... You blow your cd's and go high in threat and have to stop attacking for a few seconds, no skill in that. The fact that the dps were limited by threat is pretty stupid, anyway. Especially for classes with basic high threat and big cd's.

Pretty much. I loved the Esc key on Onyxia, it was my threat management tool...

[Recom]

That is a great point but I remember this as well. We learned ( I was GM at the time) the door method like the strat says and when Blizzard nerfed the shout (wasnt it dem shout?) it screwed the guilds that were using it and who had never learned the "real" way. It didnt affect us at all but it did screw with many other guilds.[COLOR="red"]

Nope it was War Shout (not cry), you had to put the prot war with 4 hunters/locks so it would buff 9 people (5 players + 4 pets)

I love gimmicks like that !