Jay Wilson and Warhammer 40k Dawn of War

[NoiseTank13]

"I am also a little happy, which I hate to say, it shows that the people that were involved in Diablo really did matter, and so I am happy that it has come to light that how talented that group was and how unique and special that group was. I am hoping that, as this happens very often in the industry, you see it with Call of Duty and things like that , when the people leave the game changes and it shows how critical people are in this industry." - David Brevik.

Trash talking at it's finest folks. You never seen such bile-laced vitriol, whipped up in a froth inside the gastro-intestinal and spewed out with such a blast that it rivals a shotgun. Brevik should be doing video's shitting on random scrubs in Call of Duty.

[Shinzai]

Trash talking at it's finest folks. You never seen such bile-laced vitriol, whipped up in a froth inside the gastro-intestinal and spewed out with such a blast that it rivals a shotgun. Brevik should be doing video's shitting on random scrubs in Call of Duty.

Not sure what your pointless hyperbole is about.

[NoiseTank13]

Not sure what your pointless hyperbole is about.

I'm not even sure what your post is about.

[Shinzai]

I'm not even sure what your post is about.

His response was not what I would call 'tactful' it was back handed and self fortifying. Referencing the departure of Infinity Ward from the Call of Duty games as a direct comparison, for example.

[NoiseTank13]

His response was not what I would call 'tactful' it was back handed and self fortifying. Referencing the departure of Infinity Ward from the Call of Duty games as a direct comparison, for example.

Oh, thank you for that entire quote post without any input from yourself and not providing any context on how you wanted that quote to be viewed. You 100% made me look like a fool and I do feel mortified and sheepish.

That being said, looking back at his work with the Diablo II team and praised them as both a unit and as individual's isn't what I call "back-handed and self-fortifying." and-

You know what? Let's look at more of the quote.

"I have very mixed emotions about it. On one hand I am sad that people haven’t enjoyed Diablo because it’s a love, a passion, and it's obvious people still have a giant love and passion for Diablo... That makes me feel great.

"I am sad because people are outraged and... some of the decisions they have made are not the decisions I would make, and there have been changes in philosophy and that hasn’t gone over very well..."

He was asked if there were things in Diablo 3 that he would have done differently. And rather than give the nice, scrubbed and sanitized corporate 'dodge-the-question-everyones-happy-la-la-la' response, he said that their design decisions were not one's he would have made. All he said was that the game was not his cup of tea in the most polite terms possible, and this is how the D3 team responded. As for the Call of Duty reference, I'm not Brevik, so I'm only interpreting what he's saying here, but saying individuals in a team have an impact leaving a franchise does have an effect, and Infinity Ward leaving did have an effect. For better or worse is up for debate, as I only once played MW2 and that was to abuse the Javelin/Riot Shield glitch.

Honestly, you think mild comments from someone who helped build Diablo I and Diablo II describing his honest thoughts about how the third iteration came about is back-handed and self-fortifying? Please. Hellgate was a flop, no argument but his work in D1 and D2 is there.

And for good old fashioned nostalgia of shitstorms past:



Yeah. D3 teams reaction was so much better.

[RoKPaNda]

I'm not sure why people seem to care so much about David Brevik in particular. Yes, he worked on Diablo and Diablo 2, but it appears to me that it was his team that made the game great in the end, not him specifically.

Especially considering he gave himself the title of Hellgate: London's "Game Visionary" and also the following quote from Gazillion Entertainment:

“We admire Blizzard and Blizzard games. David was asked about Diablo 3 and gave his honest opinion and we stand by him 100%. Marvel Heroes is David’s vision and is the spiritual successor to Diablo 2. We’ll be in closed beta soon, so visit MarvelHeroes.com if you want to check it out.” – Leo Olebe, VP Marketing Gazillion Entertainment.

So yeah. Marvel Heroes is the Diablo 3 he would've made.

Oh ouch. >.< That poor, poor guy.

[Shinzai]

Oh, thank you for that entire quote post without any input from yourself and not providing any context on how you wanted that quote to be viewed. You 100% made me look like a fool and I do feel mortified and sheepish.

That being said, looking back at his work with the Diablo II team and praised them as both a unit and as individual's isn't what I call "back-handed and self-fortifying." and-

You know what? Let's look at more of the quote.



He was asked if there were things in Diablo 3 that he would have done differently. And rather than give the nice, scrubbed and sanitized corporate 'dodge-the-question-everyones-happy-la-la-la' response, he said that their design decisions were not one's he would have made. All he said was that the game was not his cup of tea in the most polite terms possible, and this is how the D3 team responded. As for the Call of Duty reference, I'm not Brevik, so I'm only interpreting what he's saying here, but saying individuals in a team have an impact leaving a franchise does have an effect, and Infinity Ward leaving did have an effect. For better or worse is up for debate, as I only once played MW2 and that was to abuse the Javelin/Riot Shield glitch.

Honestly, you think mild comments from someone who helped build Diablo I and Diablo II describing his honest thoughts about how the third iteration came about is back-handed and self-fortifying? Please. Hellgate was a flop, no argument but his work in D1 and D2 is there.

And for good old fashioned nostalgia of shitstorms past:

Yeah. D3 teams reaction was so much better.

Just explain one thing to me: When is it ever a good idea to go on record, saying that a team is lacking experience and how you would have done things differently and therefore, better, despite not having proved such since then? When has doing this ever not caused a reaction from those the comments were about?

You've just shown the type of reaction people have to such mild statements. I posted the part of the quote that really got them riled up and in turn you post:

"Trash talking at it's finest folks. You never seen such bile-laced vitriol, whipped up in a froth inside the gastro-intestinal and spewed out with such a blast that it rivals a shotgun. Brevik should be doing video's shitting on random scrubs in Call of Duty. "

"Oh, thank you for that entire quote post without any input from yourself and not providing any context on how you wanted that quote to be viewed. You 100% made me look like a fool and I do feel mortified and sheepish."

I'm not sure where you've drawn the idea that I'm taking a shot at you or trying to make you look foolish from. You've just invented that part and blown it out of proportion with hyperbolic statements of your own.

[NoiseTank13]

Just explain one thing to me: When is it ever a good idea to go on record, saying that a team is lacking experience and how you would have done things differently and therefore, better, despite not having proved such since then? When has doing this ever not caused a reaction from those the comments were about?

Allow me to answer your question with another question with some hypothetical backdrops: You are put in charge of a project of a third iteration in a line of products in your company with a team of professionals, some of whom don't have a lot of experience with that particular product. You finish the product. The product has made a ton of negative feedback from consumers. A person who formerly worked on the first two product's is asked his honest thoughts upon it, acknowledges they did great with what they got, and that a few decisions he would have done differently. Now you faced down vitriolic criticism from consumers with professionalism. Do you respond to mild criticism from a peer with 'fuck that loser' and general temper tantrums? Or do you do the better thing and take his criticism as a lesson, which is really 'learn from your mistakes, and your team is really important.'?

You've just shown the type of reaction people have to such mild statements. I posted the part of the quote that really got them riled up and in turn you post:

"Trash talking at it's finest folks. You never seen such bile-laced vitriol, whipped up in a froth inside the gastro-intestinal and spewed out with such a blast that it rivals a shotgun. Brevik should be doing video's shitting on random scrubs in Call of Duty. "

Out of curiosity is there anywhere that it has been stated that -that- particular passage was what got Chris Haga's thong panties riding up his ass and had Big Momma bear Jay Wilson trying to save the day by loosening his bowels on Facebook?

"Oh, thank you for that entire quote post without any input from yourself and not providing any context on how you wanted that quote to be viewed. You 100% made me look like a fool and I do feel mortified and sheepish."

I'm not sure where you've drawn the idea that I'm taking a shot at you or trying to make you look foolish from. You've just invented that part and blown it out of proportion with hyperbolic statements of your own.

You posted a passage that I'm assuming (ha ha!) you thought was so hurtful and mean to Jay Wilson and Co., that it would be obvious to anyone who read it. I looked at it, and saw benign criticism and genuinely though that was a post in support of what I said, and of course I made a post dripping in sarcasm at how emotional scarring it was to actually be criticized for once and not have Simon screech into your ear about it. Of course, that made an ass out of me.

And for the hell of it, let me post the entire interview in it's entirety. I honestly don't see how anyone could construe it as "back handed and self-fortifying" considering he never mentioned Hellgate, or boasted about his skills, or said that he and he alone could save Diablo 3. He was asked his honest thoughts, and he obliged in the most polite way possible.

IncGamers: You are very well known in the world of ARPGs, and I am going to ask you, Diablo 3 is probably the most anticipated PC title in 10 years. What’s your opinion on the final product?

David Brevik: Honestly, I think that they did a lot of the things the best they could, it was a very different game than I would have created, the team and personalities, the people, the talent and all the design philosophies of the people that worked on it in Irvine, we called them Blizzard South, those people have their own style and the their own way they like to design. It was very, very different from the Blizzard North.

So I think that when Blizzard South took over the development of Diablo 3 it was inevitable that they were going to create an experience that was in the Diablo theme but concentrated more towards the things that they liked to experience. Including more story and things like that.

When Blizzard North shut down they lost a ton of experience with why the Action RPG works and what about it works. That’s really difficult to recover from. They didn’t have the experience of people that knew it well. This is why you do things with random levels for example, and so when you lose that experience you are going to create a very different experience in the end than we would have created.

IncGamers: Do you think they bought the wrong people in? As we understand, Jay Wilson, for example, his background was RTS. From our point of view it looked like they misunderstood what kept people playing, The type of loot drops, which has been a big issues. One of the other issues is they have not listened to their community, and they have not analysed what makes up that addictive Diablo experience. What are your thoughts on that?

David Brevik: Well, the loot system. They made some decisions with the loot system that were very different than the way that we did it in Diablo 2 and I think that obviously the community has been upset with some of the decisions they made. Having all of your powers work off your main weapon and things like that, to having blues that are more powerful than yellows. Eventually the auction house and how that worked, even something as simple as when you equip an item and it’s bound to your character permanently would have totally changed the dynamic of the game.

It seems odd that they have not really responded in a quick fashion to some of these things. I think they are very well aware of the problems at this point and are trying to fix some of this stuff. It’s a shame that they had to learn some of these painful lessons

IncGamers: As you created Diablo, how do you feel about it? Do you feel a little let down that the legacy has kind of been mashed up?

David Brevik: I have very mixed emotions about it (laughs). On one hand I am sad that people haven’t enjoyed Diablo because it’s a love, a passion, and its obvious people still have a giant love and passion for Diablo and they are speaking out about it because they have such love for it. That makes me feel great.

I am sad because people are outraged and, you know, some of the decision they have made are not the decisions I would make and there have been changes in philosophy and that hasn’t gone over very well. I think in that way I am a little sad.

I am also a little happy, which I hate to say, it shows that the people that were involved in Diablo really did matter, and so I am happy that it has come to light that how talented that group was and how unique and special that group was. I am hoping that, as this happens very often in the industry, you see it with Call of Duty and things like that , when the people leave the game changes and it shows how critical people are in this industry.

IncGamers: One of the questions the Gazillion guys asked me to ask you was, where did the name Diablo come from?

David Brevik: I thought of the game when I was in high school and I lived in the east part of San Francisco in a town called Danville and I lived at the base of Mount Diablo and that’s where the name comes from. Once I found out what the mountain name was, I thought that was awesome, I didn’t speak Spanish, so I thought I wanted to use that as a title for a nemesis in a videogame. It’s simply from where I lived.

IncGamers: Well thanks a lot David, you’ve brought a lot of pleasure to millions of people over the years and hopefully you’ll continue to do so.

If you still found what Brevik said to be mean and all that other rot, then I don't know what to tell you and there probably is no further use arguing either.

[Deleted]

If you still found what Brevik said to be mean and all that other rot, then I don't know what to tell you and there probably is no further use arguing either.

Easier to spot a douche by watching a video than reading a transcript.

[NoiseTank13]

Easier to spot a douche by watching a video than reading a transcript.

John F. Kennedy won the debate versus Richard M. Nixon, according to a poll conducted on people who watched the televised debate. Nixon's sickly and ill appearance and demeanor was the leading cause of this.

Richard M. Nixon won the debate versus John F. Kennedy, according to a poll conducted on people who listened to the radio broadcasted version of the debate. Apparently he had the better substance in his arguements.

[Shinzai]

Allow me to answer your question with another question with some hypothetical backdrops: You are put in charge of a project of a third iteration in a line of products in your company with a team of professionals, some of whom don't have a lot of experience with that particular product. You finish the product. The product has made a ton of negative feedback from consumers. A person who formerly worked on the first two product's is asked his honest thoughts upon it, acknowledges they did great with what they got, and that a few decisions he would have done differently. Now you faced down vitriolic criticism from consumers with professionalism. Do you respond to mild criticism from a peer with 'fuck that loser' and general temper tantrums? Or do you do the better thing and take his criticism as a lesson, which is really 'learn from your mistakes, and your team is really important.'?



Out of curiosity is there anywhere that it has been stated that -that- particular passage was what got Chris Haga's thong panties riding up his ass and had Big Momma bear Jay Wilson trying to save the day by loosening his bowels on Facebook?



You posted a passage that I'm assuming (ha ha!) you thought was so hurtful and mean to Jay Wilson and Co., that it would be obvious to anyone who read it. I looked at it, and saw benign criticism and genuinely though that was a post in support of what I said, and of course I made a post dripping in sarcasm at how emotional scarring it was to actually be criticized for once and not have Simon screech into your ear about it. Of course, that made an ass out of me.

And for the hell of it, let me post the entire interview in it's entirety. I honestly don't see how anyone could construe it as "back handed and self-fortifying" considering he never mentioned Hellgate, or boasted about his skills, or said that he and he alone could save Diablo 3. He was asked his honest thoughts, and he obliged in the most polite way possible.



If you still found what Brevik said to be mean and all that other rot, then I don't know what to tell you and there probably is no further use arguing either.

Again though, as someone pointed out earlier the 'fuck that guy' comment resulted as Jay thought it was a private chat. He apologised for the fact it was publicly broadcast.

And I'd be surprised if you've never seen someone dismayed by criticism from someone that they would regard as a peer in the subject. Saying things like "Fuck those guys, you can do better." Or "Fuck that guy, don't listen to him." are things that I've heard people say more than a few times to colleagues when how they handle things are brought into question.

Jay Wilson was trying to be supportive to the guy who'd taken the comments hard. If Chris Haga had never mentioned it, we would never have heard of any of this nonsense to begin with: The matter would've stayed internal and this would never even have been a point in the matter.

And yes, some people are, obviously, very sensitive of anything said in reference to them.

[NoiseTank13]

Again though, as someone pointed out earlier the 'fuck that guy' comment resulted as Jay thought it was a private chat. He apologised for the fact it was publicly broadcast.

'it was supposed to be a private chat' was never a good excuse for anything or anyones actions. You could take his apology two ways, as an apology, or a corporate issued apology with Wilson's stamp of approval.

And I'd be surprised if you've never seen someone dismayed by criticism from someone that they would regard as a peer in the subject. Saying things like "Fuck those guys, you can do better." Or "Fuck that guy, don't listen to him." are things that I've heard people say more than a few times to colleagues when how they handle things are brought into question.

If you are so emotionally rattled by criticism, and again, I re-iterate, mild criticism that you need to have people buck you up constantly, you won't last long in any corporate environment. Just not how it's supposed to go. I can imagine this happening if you got a Gordon Ramsay-esque drubbing, but Brevik's comments weren't anything of the sort. He expressed that he was sad that people were upset with the state of the game when it launched, but expressed optimism that they knew what was wrong and they will fix it. I can definitely see that being a massive, crushing blow to a person's ego.*

Jay Wilson was trying to be supportive to the guy who'd taken the comments hard. If Chris Haga had never mentioned it, we would never have heard of any of this nonsense to begin with: The matter would've stayed internal and this would never even have been a point in the matter.

Herein lies the crux of it. If Haga hadn't been such an emotional wreck about it, maybe Wilson wouldn't said anything other than a casual, 'man fuck that guy' over the water cooler. I've been in offices. People shittalk behind people's back constantly and I wouldn't fault for doing so for letting off steam. The problem is, that Haga did post and link and whined about. And Wilson was what Brevik was not- destructive. He embarrassed himself, his team and Blizzard. Was it a mistake? Most definitely. But it was still a mistake done in public view.

And yes, some people are, obviously, very sensitive of anything said in reference to them.

Obviously. It's how you deal with your sensitivity. What to take personally. What not to take personally.


* This was sarcasm.

[Deleted]

John F. Kennedy won the debate versus Richard M. Nixon, according to a poll conducted on people who watched the televised debate. Nixon's sickly and ill appearance and demeanor was the leading cause of this.

Richard M. Nixon won the debate versus John F. Kennedy, according to a poll conducted on people who listened to the radio broadcasted version of the debate. Apparently he had the better substance in his arguements.

Yeah. You can't read body language and facial expressions through the radio or from a transcript. So, like I said, easier to spot a douche by watching a video.

[potis]

Jay Wilson makes strategy games, not ARPG's but it wasnt his fault the game is what it is, its the superiors.

The problem with D3 was:

This is what people wanted, pretty much around this stuff is what we talk about in between friends about D2 and D3 and what didn happen and we all agree on the same shit pretty much.

1)The way D2 LoD worked with items/bosses/drops/Levels/Skills etc, it was amazing, it still is amazing, doesnt matter if spells werent used, D3 specs are this and that also, everyone saying otherwise is clueless ;3.

2)New Uniques on top of the old ones, new runes, new gems, new charms, cause D2 LoD itemization was GOOD, you knew what you wanted to find, when you wanted it, what your build was, not stupid shit of "Farm blue packs in 1/1.000.000.000 chance to get a decent item roll, oh you found a unique? Sorry, horrible roll also!

And it definitely wasnt about "Weapon DPS", sure Physical builds/classes needed high DPS on weapons, thats why you made those characters after you were done farming with your sorceress for awhile.., there are Uniques and Runewords for that, that everyone knew about and an occasional awesome rare drop but YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WANTED AND AIMED FOR IT, not aimlessly playing in hope.

3)New areas/story (Well they delivered this so its a no brainer.)

What they gave instead was a game made to attract the WoW population while not keeping one single thing that made D2 awesome while checking how RMAH would work for future WoW expansions and Titan.

[jbombard]

Again though, as someone pointed out earlier the 'fuck that guy' comment resulted as Jay thought it was a private chat. He apologised for the fact it was publicly broadcast.

And I'd be surprised if you've never seen someone dismayed by criticism from someone that they would regard as a peer in the subject. Saying things like "Fuck those guys, you can do better." Or "Fuck that guy, don't listen to him." are things that I've heard people say more than a few times to colleagues when how they handle things are brought into question.

Jay Wilson was trying to be supportive to the guy who'd taken the comments hard. If Chris Haga had never mentioned it, we would never have heard of any of this nonsense to begin with: The matter would've stayed internal and this would never even have been a point in the matter.

And yes, some people are, obviously, very sensitive of anything said in reference to them.

I think he was especially sensitive because of the truth he found in the words Brevik spoke. Many of the poor decisions surrounding the money grab AH are being fixed in the console versions, so it isn't like they don't know it was mistake. So the console version will be what the PC version should have been.

D3 was not a bad game, but it sure as hell was no D2. Anybody who works in IT should have some grasp of how private things really are on the internet. If he was a politician or a non-tech savy CEO you can say he didn't understand and probably excuse it. He knew exactly what he was doing, he knew exactly how private anything on the internet was, he rudely attacked someone publicly, and then he made a half assed un-heartfelt apology.

[ParanoiD84]

Had no idea about that, but yeah dawn of war is a very good serie.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure why people seem to care so much about David Brevik in particular. Yes, he worked on Diablo and Diablo 2, but it appears to me that it was his team that made the game great in the end, not him specifically.

Especially considering he gave himself the title of Hellgate: London's "Game Visionary" and also the following quote from Gazillion Entertainment:

“We admire Blizzard and Blizzard games. David was asked about Diablo 3 and gave his honest opinion and we stand by him 100%. Marvel Heroes is David’s vision and is the spiritual successor to Diablo 2. We’ll be in closed beta soon, so visit MarvelHeroes.com if you want to check it out.” – Leo Olebe, VP Marketing Gazillion Entertainment.

So yeah. Marvel Heroes is the Diablo 3 he would've made.

I don't really give a damn about what he makes or doesn't make now, he was still a key person behind d2 and jay wilson is just a loser. De facto is, jay wilson can't contribute anything other than failures, as shown by the continued improvement after he has left the project.

[NoiseTank13]

Yeah. You can't read body language and facial expressions through the radio or from a transcript. So, like I said, easier to spot a douche by watching a video.

Except the words he said are what is being discussed. Not his body language or facial expressions. His words. His physical appearance changes nothing.

[Shinzai]

I don't really give a damn about what he makes or doesn't make now, he was still a key person behind d2 and jay wilson is just a loser. De facto is, jay wilson can't contribute anything other than failures, as shown by the continued improvement after he has left the project.

Things that Jay Wilson had set in motion prior to leaving and more like the model he aired back in 2008-2010.

Why exactly is he a loser? And please show me all of Jay Wilson's failures, aside from the incredibly questionable and seemingly forced implementation of the AH in Diablo 3, that neither fit the mold shown prior nor the game that was released.

Why isn't Brevik's own spiritual successor to Diablo 2 good, if he was the integral piece to making a great game?

What is the basis for your thoughts?

Aside from that though, another thing that I'm curious about in general with people's feelings about Jay Wilson: I know a few people have said things along the lines of "he should have stuck to RTS games" or "he clearly doesn't know how to make ARPGS", but again, aside from the ten ton gorilla AH, Diablo 3 has some of the best actual gameplay in the ARPG market. So, the gameplay, its sound design and visual design are all highly lauded, but the AH is the one thing that stops it from being flatly accepted as the best ARPG around.

(Side note, that's not to discredit Path of Exile, which is an absolutely excellent, far purer 'Diablo 2' experience overall, but it's clearly for a much more focused and hardcore market, more so than any of the Diablo games ever were)

[BenBos]

Things that Jay Wilson had set in motion prior to leaving and more like the model he aired back in 2008-2010.

Why exactly is he a loser? And please show me all of Jay Wilson's failures, aside from the incredibly questionable and seemingly forced implementation of the AH in Diablo 3, that neither fit the mold shown prior nor the game that was released.

Why isn't Brevik's own spiritual successor to Diablo 2 good, if he was the integral piece to making a great game?

What is the basis for your thoughts?

Aside from that though, another thing that I'm curious about in general with people's feelings about Jay Wilson: I know a few people have said things along the lines of "he should have stuck to RTS games" or "he clearly doesn't know how to make ARPGS", but again, aside from the ten ton gorilla AH, Diablo 3 has some of the best actual gameplay in the ARPG market. So, the gameplay, its sound design and visual design are all highly lauded, but the AH is the one thing that stops it from being flatly accepted as the best ARPG around.

(Side note, that's not to discredit Path of Exile, which is an absolutely excellent, far purer 'Diablo 2' experience overall, but it's clearly for a much more focused and hardcore market, more so than any of the Diablo games ever were)

Let's look at both gentlemen's achievements over the past 10 years ...

Jay Wilson:

Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War : Designer and Story (2 million copies sold)
Company of Heroes: Senior Lead Designer (4 million copies sold)
Diablo 3: Lead Designer/Director (13 million copies sold)

All 3 games above got an average rating of PRO reviewers above 87%


Brevik:

Hellgate LONDON: Lead Designer/Story (200K copies sold and an average PRO review of 68%). In fact after the launch Flagship Studios filed for bankruptcy, with the servers taken off line

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellgate:_London

Marvel Heroes: Lead Designer (free to play still in beta, but already considered one of the worst games recently and an incredible bad engine).

Mmm I wonder who is the real loser ?

Also, in recent publications it was shown that Blizzard Irvine had to put a MASSIVE amount of resources/money into D1 and D2 to get the game running decently. The first version of Brevik was simply refused by Blizzard Irvine as it was ... turn based. With each launch, Blizzard had to fly over a massive number of co workers to support the company they bought and renamed Blizzard North.


And ever since Brevik and his superior manager Bill Roper left Blizzard ... almost 10 years ago... they went from one disaster to another. After his several complete failures at Flagship Studios and Cryptic Studios, everyone thought Roper was finished, but ... surprise he is now one of the leading dudes of the new Disney project that wants to counter SKYLANDERS (from Activision).

You know normally that new Disney franchise would blow Skylanders away (with all that Disney stuff).
But guess what ? The project was already postponed 2 times and is now scheduled to enter the market in late August... We'll see.

TLDR: Learn the achievements in game design over the past 10 years (we are no longer in the age of Pac Man either) ...

Of course these are the things ... internet kids don't know at all...