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  1. #101
    Just for people who might not be aware (Because it could be simple ignorance, which then it isn't actually a fault):

    Player characters aren't anywhere close to as strong in the lore as they are in the game. A perfect example:

    A level 90 can solo Illidan in Black Temple.

    That does not mean that us as players in the lore are more powerful than Illidan. Because, compare it to this:

    The same level 90 most likely cannot solo the Virmen boss in Stormstout Brewery (Or, at the very least, it is harder to do so).

    So is that Virmen boss stronger than Illidan lorewise? Of course not.

    Its the mechanics of the game versus the lore.

    Us player characters, from what little we've been written about in the actual lore, are more like veteran footsoldiers than anything special.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    I consider them powerful because of what they do in the game after all of their forces aren't fighting literally all of their enemies at ONCE
    The Horde, with NO prior experience with ANY of their enemies, ALSO fought them all at once...and unlike the Shado-Pan chumps, we curbstomped them in half a year.

    Read that again. In half a year's time, we kicked the combined asses of every single foe the SP had trouble dealing with SINGLY. So yeah, the whole "But the SP aren't used to fighting them all at once and that's why they're loooooosing!!!" argument totally falls apart when you realize we aren't used to fighting them AT ALL, and still manage to crush their combined forces.

    We also kicked Taran Zhu's ass, and it looks like in 5.4 we get to kick their god's asses too, just to really drive the point home that basically all of Pandaria are our bitches.

  3. #103
    Except we didn't. If we go by the story of the expansion, we deal with the threats as we get to the zones.

    The Shado-Pan are across the continent and are trying to keep things from falling apart. I am really not sure what you cannot understand about this.

    I'd also point out how the fact that it isn't Taran Zhu but he's being manipulated or the fact that the Celestials are testing us in 5.4, or how the Alliance and Horde are by and away much larger than the Shado-Pan are, or any other thing incorrect with your post, but I'm honestly tired explaining the same thing over and over.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-06-23 at 11:50 AM.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Except we didn't. If we go by the story of the expansion, we deal with the threats as we get to the zones.

    The Shado-Pan are across the continent and are trying to keep things from falling apart. I am really not sure what you cannot understand about this.

    I'd also point out how the fact that it isn't Taran Zhu but he's being manipulated or the fact that the Celestials are testing us in 5.4, but you don't really seem to want the actual story.
    Even following the story of the expansion when we get to new zones the other conflicts are still ongoing. When we get to Dread Wastes the plot doesn't suddenly tell us the Mogu and Yaungnol are all gone, and the Mantids and Sha are very much BOTH simultaneously active. We are ALSO keeping things from falling apart(actually, we are pretty much the ones who actually ARE stopping it from happening), not sure what YOU do not understand about THAT.

    And Taran Zhu's emotions were being manipulated...they weren't moving his arms and legs like a puppet and suddenly making him suck. And so his SKILLS shouldn't suddenly deteriorate to the point that we could kick his ass so incredibly hard, but, we did. As for the Celestials "testing us", so what? The test still involves us KICKING THEIR ASSES.

  5. #105
    Actually, no, the Alliance and Horde are the ones who stop the threats after the Shado-Pan had very slowly been losing the ability to stop things from getting worse. No misunderstanding my part, maybe you're playing a different game than I. There is a difference between "stopping" and "holding the line."

    You misunderstand, when you go through a different zone, you largely deal with 1 or 2 threats at a time in that zone. You're not fighting the Mantid, the Sha, the Yaungol, the Mogu, and the Zandalari all at once. Anywhere.

    Could bring up mechanics argument again vs Taran Zhu, or the fact that the Sha of Hatred is directly controlling him (Which is why Hatred is a thing during the fight), but probably isn't worth it. Again, repeating myself and all that jazz.

    Going to just move on in the thread after realizing the futility in continuing this back and forth.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-06-23 at 12:03 PM.

  6. #106
    I have full understanding of why Taran Zhu would have wanted everyone in the horde and the alliance off the continent immediatly, as we are the cause of 99% of his problems.

    If I were him in the situation he got put in by the horde, alliance and Xuen I would tell all of them to get their shit together and fix the crap they have started, and then I would flee Pandaria. I couldn't be bothered with trying to clean up that mess. He's probably too loyal to the pandaren to do that but it would be the sensible thing to do.

  7. #107
    Taran Zhu just needs to take a xanax cocktail and take a long hard think

    Maybe he should talk to the other races about lose before he gets his knickers in a twist about a place that nearly no pandaran was even allowed into

    The vale was pretty but it was just a fucking titan chemistry set that was given to the mogu to look after

    The pandas are no more the protectors than the fucking oracles are in Sholazar Basin

    So taran yes im sorry about your lose come and talk to me when your home planet that you once called home is disintegrating

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Did you miss the part where someone whose sole purpose in life is to record and understand history flat-out tells us Sha of this size and power were only heard of in ages-old legends?
    still, I'd say a small army that's been trained to fight against those things for generations should have more chances of victory than a small group that didn't even know those things even existed one month ago. the size of the sha doesn't matter. a bunch of heroes that weren't used to fighting sha at all defeated all the 6 sha of that size, while the shado-pan fell to some of the weakest sha in pandaria (hatred and violence). it IS pathetic.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-23 at 12:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Just for people who might not be aware (Because it could be simple ignorance, which then it isn't actually a fault):

    Player characters aren't anywhere close to as strong in the lore as they are in the game. A perfect example:

    A level 90 can solo Illidan in Black Temple.

    That does not mean that us as players in the lore are more powerful than Illidan. Because, compare it to this:

    The same level 90 most likely cannot solo the Virmen boss in Stormstout Brewery (Or, at the very least, it is harder to do so).

    So is that Virmen boss stronger than Illidan lorewise? Of course not.

    Its the mechanics of the game versus the lore.

    Us player characters, from what little we've been written about in the actual lore, are more like veteran footsoldiers than anything special.
    you are right, but lore states that a small army of the alliance or the horde defeated the sha of anger and sha of fear, and small groups of the alliance and the horde defeated the other 3, while the shado-pan defeated the sha of hatred ONLY.

    isn't it pathetic that people that never knew those things existed before are much better at fighting them than the guys that supposedly have been trained to fight it for generations?
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  9. #109
    They actually aren't protected by plot armor. Its down to something around 33 Shado-Pan that are proficient enough to defend in the Vol'jin book, which ends up taking place shortly before 5.2.

    Their numbers have been falling steadily since our arrival. And it looks like even more die in 5.4.

    isn't it pathetic that people that never knew those things existed before are much better at fighting them than the guys that supposedly have been trained to fight it for generations?
    ......................./facepalm

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by NecroGangster View Post
    Of course. Not only that but they are trained to deal with the ocasional sha, not the Sha Primes who are supposed to be imprisioned.

    They are trained to defend agains the mantid 1000 years cicle, but they weren't expecting it to happen 100 years earlier... during a super major sha outbreak... with the second most powerfull sha impowering the mantid.

    And ofcourse they were trained to take care of the rarely seen mogus who came out of hiding now and then while the mogu tribes were mostly busy fighting themselves, not a full fledge mogu empire, with all the tribes united, plus what I think is the full force or at least great part of the Zandalari backing them up and on top of that the god like Thunder King leading them. During the invasion of the sha powered mantid. While dealing with the Sha Primes.

    So yeah, it's not that they are weak.
    And the Yaungol exodus/aggression. Not to mention the Zandalari! Five enemies all at once is a tall order, to say the least!

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    And the Yaungol exodus/aggression. Not to mention the Zandalari! Five enemies all at once is a tall order, to say the least!
    So basicaly, Shado Pan are effective for as long as enemy remains predictable.

    Emperors finest, truly.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    So basicaly, Shado Pan are effective for as long as enemy remains predictable.

    Emperors finest, truly.
    Burning Legion portal appears in Ogrimmar, slaughters everyone. They weren't prepared for it because how do you prepare for such a thing? Does this mean the Horde is weak?

    No. Its circumstances. If you've been training for something for generations and something unexpected happens (the first time EVER the mists have dropped, and two strange new armies make landfall, causing the Sha to surge in power, drives the Mantid insane and causes the Yaungol to go on the rampage) of course you're going to struggle. Its why the Alliance lost the First War, they weren't prepared for the Orcish invasion. Second War things turned out differently because they were prepared.

    Stop being so blinkered. These threats were defeated by the COMBINED efforts of the Shado-Pan, Horde and Alliance. Threats that were made all the most worse by the fact the Horde and Alliance showed up. Who's to say the Shado-Pan couldn't have defeated the Mogu themselves if they didn't have all those other threats hammering them beforehand? Its a 'what if' situation.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Burning Legion portal appears in Ogrimmar, slaughters everyone. They weren't prepared for it because how do you prepare for such a thing? Does this mean the Horde is weak?
    Actualy yes, it does. Unless you are prepared for anything, you are weak.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Burning Legion portal appears in Ogrimmar, slaughters everyone. They weren't prepared for it because how do you prepare for such a thing? Does this mean the Horde is weak?

    No. Its circumstances. If you've been training for something for generations and something unexpected happens (the first time EVER the mists have dropped, and two strange new armies make landfall, causing the Sha to surge in power, drives the Mantid insane and causes the Yaungol to go on the rampage) of course you're going to struggle. Its why the Alliance lost the First War, they weren't prepared for the Orcish invasion. Second War things turned out differently because they were prepared.

    Stop being so blinkered. These threats were defeated by the COMBINED efforts of the Shado-Pan, Horde and Alliance. Threats that were made all the most worse by the fact the Horde and Alliance showed up. Who's to say the Shado-Pan couldn't have defeated the Mogu themselves if they didn't have all those other threats hammering them beforehand? Its a 'what if' situation.
    how were the alliance and the horde's handful of survivors of the first incursions in pandaria, who had never seen or even heard of sha in their whole lives, any more prepared for fighting sha than the shado-pan?
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  15. #115
    Deleted
    I agree with you on Taran Zhu and the Shado Pan, it is absolutely justified for them, everyone can see that.

    Of course the refuges don't deserve being purged by them, but for an outsider, garrosh is still the warchief, like the video.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Who's to say the Shado-Pan couldn't have defeated the Mogu themselves if they didn't have all those other threats hammering them beforehand? Its a 'what if' situation.
    Let's remove the empowerment of the Sha entirely from this scenario to see what the Shado-Pan would have had to deal with (and by proxy, remove the Alliance and Horde entirely because it's their fault the Sha were empowered to begin with).
    -Mantid swarm does not happen for another 100 years. Shado-Pan Blackguards are free to report in to other fronts.
    -Yaungol rise up. Squashed in short order as the Shado-Pan aren't splitting their attention towards beings of legend, babysitting people making everything worse with every step they take, fending off a premature swarm, and dealing with the Zandalari reviving the Thunder King.
    -Zandalari make landfall because the mists lifted. Killed in their sleep as soon as they make landfall after they inevitably attack the Shado-Pan who come to warn them off the continent. They never find the Thunder King's body.
    -Mogu make their comeback and are dealt with, as the Shado-Pan can turn their full attention on them and the Zandalari are unavailable to revive the Thunder King.

    Now we add in the Alliance and Horde. These aren't in order, just covering subjects as they come to mind.
    -Sha empowered to levels only heard of in legend. Fear corrupts the Mantid empress, empress forces a swarm 100 years early. Anger drives the yaungol mad, causing them to zerg settlements. Hatred infects the Shado-Pan, having become powerful enough to overcome them. Other Sha corrupt major figures in pandaren culture or claim swaths of land as their own.
    -Alliance and Horde indirectly lead the Zandalari to Pandaria. Factions are so busy cleaning up their own messes that the Zandalari are opposed only by a lone adventurer, who is unable to stop them from finding and retrieving Lei Shen's body. Thunder King is revived while the Alliance and Horde are busy slaughtering each other on Kasarang's beaches.
    -Shado-Pan are pressed in by all their enemies and several new ones, but manage to hold the line. Alliance and Horde deign to clean up their own messes and defeat the Sha they empowered to begin with.
    -Alliance and Horde are let into the Vale against Taran Zhu's urging, with Taran Zhu pointing to the myriad problems that the factions have caused. Xuen renders judgement based on an adventurer who has learned to control their emotions.
    -Thunder King returns, Alliance and Horde defeat the Zandalari and Mogu--again, in a search for weapons to use against each other (and in the blood elves' case, to use in the upcoming revolution).
    -Horde desecrates the Vale--the Pandaren equivalent of Oshu'gun or the Sunwell, culturally--and digs up a huge swath of it, stripmining it of artifacts and resources. Taran Zhu's initial response is to order a purge, but rethinks it because of the Horde's aid on the Isle of Thunder. Instead orders them out; and then gives the Horde a one-season grace period at Dezco's urging.
    -(5.4 spoilers) Vale is further corrupted and Sha-scarred by the Sha of Pride, unleashed by the Alliance and Horde, as well as Pride having been the primary flaw among the pandaren as it was the one flaw Shaohao was unable to overcome. Alliance and Horde adventurers once again clean up their own mess.

    Literally all of MoP's storyline has been two things: the faction war and the factions cleaning up their messes after they manage to do nothing but make everything worse for the natives. No wonder Taran Zhu's first instinct was to have everyone at the Shrine killed. Afterwards, well, as noted earlier in the thread, that wall has stood up to mantid swarms for countless generations, and I'd bet dollars to pesos the mantid swarms field a lot more numbers than the Horde ever could, especially after this expansion where they and the Alliance have been killing one another en masse.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  17. #117
    To me, it feels like the shadow pan are similar to a wooden sword coated in a thin layer of steel. They appear to be strong, they flash prettily in the sun and with enough force behind the blow they can even kill. They are however easily broken when hit by an actual steel sword. Don't get me wrong, the Shado-Pan certainly have their moments as have been mentioned a few times in this thread (Townlong and books for example) However the bottom line that I personally take from their story is a reinforcement of Shaohao's sins.
    The Shado-Pan are too proud, as are some elements of player factions, and as such were easy prey to the Sha when they manifested in force for the first time in ten thousand years. I completely understand that this was a stronger manifestation than they were used to but in my eyes this is a poor excuse, when your entire order is dedicated to controlling their emotions with an iron will it should be a source of great shame for any amount of external pressure to break that calm. This is further reinforced by the fact that SOME elements of the Shado-Pan were indeed strong enough (i.e. quest givers in Townlong, Shao-Pan monastery) in addition to many other groups being strong enough to resist, players, Mogu and Zandalari for example. The Shado-Pan have an over-inflated opinion of their prowess based on the fact that they have had very little actual challenge in living memory and therefore like Shadohao himself fall prey to the greatest of sha with ease.

    Regardless of my personal opinions of the Shado-Pan as an organisation, the topic is I believe regarding whether they are justified in their hate of the horde, and whether they could take the shrine? To those I would respond with yes, their hate is justified and I doubt anyone would argue that. The Shado-Pan could certainly storm the shrine, but if and when the horde decided to take it back they would have literally no chance (similarly the alliance could obliterate the Shao-Pan with ease) The Shado-Pan are not trained for war, they are trained to control their emotions and defend Pandaria, this is very different to the kind of war the Alliance and Horde are capable of unleashing if given cause.

    That's my opinion on the matter anyway, I certainly concede the Shado-Pan can be interpreted differently to my view.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post

    The Shado Pan have to retardedly powerful otherwise the Pandaren wouldnt have survived until this point (and im still adamant that they shouldnt have, its a load of crap but whatever, plot armour ftw) however it doesnt mean they can stand against the might of blood soaked armies. The Horde and the Alliance have faced threats the Shado Pan can only dream of and have continued to pull through.
    .
    The Shado-Pan are retardedly powerful. They're a small group, Pandaria's only line of defence against just about every threat. But every one of them is far, far, far more powerful than the typical foot soldier. They're like Seventh Legion and Kor'kron combined if we're talking about the scale of how elite these guys are; pandaren are killed during the trials to get accepted into the Shado-Pan and beyond that it's not like being one of them is a 9 to 5 job; they devote the rest of their lives to the cause. So they can by all means stand against the might of blood soaked armies as you put it.

    I should add that it wasn't just the Horde and Alliance solving all of Pandaria's problems. The Shado-Pan are present on the Isle of Thunder just as much as both of those factions, who are just as busy fighting each other like whinging little kids blaming each other for crap. Taran is the one who sits them down and tells them to man the fuck up.

    Actualy yes, it does. Unless you are prepared for anything, you are weak.
    I guess this makes Vol'jin a little weakling for not being prepared for that knife to the neck, then?

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowbane View Post
    I guess this makes Vol'jin a little weakling for not being prepared for that knife to the neck, then?
    It does... Especialy since he was threatening the one that sent the assassin. If he does that and doesnt expect same response, it makes him an idiot.

    I repeat myself, never expect fairness and predictability from your oponent.

  20. #120
    Yeah I don't think there is reasoning with Verdugo.

    Glad it wasn't just me.

    Anyhow...this discussion has been awesome, on the whole. Thanks! Heading off to bed now, but feel free to continue y'all!

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