Taran Zhu: Justified Hatred

[Sandrox]

The fact that the worst examples of sha possession and corruption tied in with the shado-pan themselves (I mean hell, there leader gets completely taken over by one sha, well another sha runs around in there temple), makes them really appear the most hypocritical of factions ever. Far as I'm concerned, the sha of hatred and violence came from there own mistakes, it didn't come from horde and alliance appearing in there lands.

As a group that is meant to hold itself to defending against the evils of bad emotions, they do a really shit job of it.

This. The only Sha that it looks like the Horde/Alliance actually release is the Sha of Doubt in the Jade Forest, and the Sha of Pride by Garrosh Horde in the Vale.

[Thage]

It still shows that supposed master of the order that can control its emotions... cant control his emotions. Horde and Alliance were test, and he failed. Spectacularly.

So what you're saying is that he was supposed to hold firm against a manifestation of an Old God's power, empowered to levels only heard of in ancient legends (because seriously, that bears repeating for people who can't figure that part out), while his own hatred of the Alliance and Horde builds as they continue to rip the land to pieces around them over a war his people and land had nothing to do with, so they can determine who gets to stripmine his land of resources? And that doesn't seem like an unrealistic expectation to you considering that the adventurers step within twenty feet of the Sha of Anger and are immediately overwhelmed?

[Sandrox]

Its confirmed the Sha of Fear is released by the Horde and Alliance arriving on Pandaria...

https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/340621581430706177

I would take that text seriously, if all the in game quests and lore didnt directly contradict that statement.

[Thage]

This. The only Sha that it looks like the Horde/Alliance actually release is the Sha of Doubt in the Jade Forest, and the Sha of Pride by Garrosh Horde in the Vale.

https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/340621581430706177 Kosak, head honcho of quest development, says it's literally all on us.

[KrazyK923]

I would take that text seriously, if all the in game quests and lore didnt directly contradict that statement.

Except it doesn't. You're interpreting a single word the quest says in a different way.

Dave Kosak is the lead quest designer of development. Reminds me of Blizzard flat-out saying Garrosh is not corrupt and people still arguing he is.

[Verdugo]

So what you're saying is that he was supposed to hold firm against a manifestation of an Old God's power, empowered to levels only heard of in ancient legends (because seriously, that bears repeating for people who can't figure that part out), while his own hatred of the Alliance and Horde builds as they continue to rip the land to pieces around them over a war his people and land had nothing to do with, so they can determine who gets to stripmine his land of resources? And that doesn't seem like an unrealistic expectation to you considering that the adventurers step within twenty feet of the Sha of Anger and are immediately overwhelmed?

Such ancient order should know better.

https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/340621581430706177 Kosak, head honcho of quest development, says it's literally all on us.

Its really bad when head of the quest development cant make something more interesting than "its all your fault, repent sinners".

[Sandrox]

https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/340621581430706177 Kosak, head honcho of quest development, says it's literally all on us.

If that is indeed supposed to be true, the game does a VERY POOR job of it.

[Thage]

Such ancient order should know better.

Way to miss the point. The point remains that by the time Taran Zhu was born, Sha of that power were considered more a cautionary tale than an actual record of history, the same way most people today consider the story of Icarus a cautionary tale. Even Lorewalker Cho, someone whose entire purpose in life is to record and learn from history, goes out of his way to tell us Sha of that power were only heard of in legends--that there was no historic record of Sha of that power should tell you a lot about how badly we fucked things up.

[KrazyK923]

If that is indeed supposed to be true, the game does a VERY POOR job of it.

Not really. You're choosing not to see it.

[Shadowbane]

Mainly to address the perspective of people thinking the Shado-Pan are helpless.

Alliance and Horde arrive, the following fighting and war causes Sha to re-emerge, the Sha of Fear posesses the mantid Empress, who sends the swarm 100 years early; this prompts the yaungol who had been living in Townlong at the time to try fleeing into Kun Lai, where by their nature they raid and pillage to try and establish a new home. On top of that with the mists falling the Zandalari return and bring back the Thunder King, the pandaren's most feared figure of their history.

Even though the Sha have been eliminated, and thus afaik we can exert negative emotions on Pandaria without consequence now; he should know better than to exert hatred.

Yes, it's justified. But coming from someone who was raised their entire life to avoid negative emotions, and to enforce the laws of the land; yeah...

I think after any of this, even someone like Taran would slip from the burden of responsibility because he's probably blaming himself for letting it all happen. It's not just about exerting hatred either. You could be as angry or violent as you wanted so long as you don't let it overwhelm you, as you might hit something if you get angry enough.

Anyways, consider that after / throughout the above, all the while Alliance and Horde are making things worse by maintaining their hateful war and letting their emotions get the better of them, creating a continuing mess that the Shado-Pan are cleaning up, but they do what they can to help out; half divided between killing each other and helping the folks of Pandaria, the Horde mostly because they're a resource-hungry war machine whereas the Alliance are there primarily to counter the Horde. You know, because it's not like Garrosh is reasonable. Both factions realise if they become a real problem, the Shado-Pan will turn on them. They're not so honorable and righteous as the Argent Crusade.

This is pretty important because none of the factions want that to happen. That's quite obvious when you first meet Taran in the introduction quests in Pandaria; especially when he tells Nazgrim to put his weapons away or he'll be facing two enemies on this continent - or something along those lines. Neither faction wants to make an enemy of the Shado-Pan and with good reasons. In an all out fight, Alliance or Horde probably could defeat the Shado-Pan because of their numbers. But firstly, as Callei put it:

you're assuming the Shado-Pan would arrive for a fair fight. They wouldn't. They'd send in assassins to kill the sentries and murder everyone in their sleep. Honor's a pretty virtue. It's also one the Shado-Pan are willing to discard if the choice is between being honorable or protecting Pandaria--else they wouldn't have an entire branch of elite assassins and saboteurs.

Consider that both of these armies are stationed in land that the Shado-Pan are familiar with and the factions are not. They would probably have the support of the Order of the Cloud Serpent (which if you know the history of, you might come to realise that cloud serpents are rather dangerous creatures), the Golden Lotus and perhaps even the Celestials.

Secondly, if the Horde decided to make an enemy of the Shado-Pan, the Alliance would be making allies with them, and then the Horde in Pandaria would truly be boned.

Also I think we're forgetting that the pandaren are walking talking bears. When was the last time you were punched by a bear? Probably never, but I bet it'd shatter a ribcage. They could quite easily re-take the Shrine from the Horde if they sent enough people. It isn't a fortress like Orgrimmar.

[Sandrox]

Not really. You're choosing not to see it.

Yes really. The mantid are already under the effects of the Sha and swarming the wall when your in Valley of the Four Winds and Krasarang Wilds. How exactly is the Horde/Alliance releasing the Sha of Fear and having it possess the Mantid before they even get there?

[Verdugo]

Yes really. The mantid are already under the effects of the Sha and swarming the wall when your in Valley of the Four Winds and Krasarang Wilds. How exactly is the Horde/Alliance releasing the Sha of Fear and having it possess the Mantid before they even get there?

Because Kosak says it, duh... Fuck logic when Blizzard lore developers are talking.

[KrazyK923]

Yes really. The mantid are already under the effects of the Sha and swarming the wall when your in Valley of the Four Winds and Krasarang Wilds. How exactly is the Horde/Alliance releasing the Sha of Fear and having it possess the Mantid before they even get there?

...the Sha are unleashed when they step foot on PANDARIA. The land. The specific zone is irrelevant. When the Prime Sha are unleashed during the Jade Forest cinematic, it happens everywhere. And then the ripple effects occur.

You can continue to believe whatever you want, but we have the actual guy who oversaw the creation of the quests telling us this is how it happened.

Because Kosak says it, duh... Fuck logic when Blizzard lore developers are talking.

Great contribution. See above post. I have no desire to debate whether or not the guy who is responsible for the quests is right or wrong.

[Sandrox]

...the Sha are unleashed when they step foot on PANDARIA. The land. The specific zone is irrelevant. When the Prime Sha are unleashed during the Jade Forest cinematic, it happens everywhere. And then the ripple effects occur.

You can continue to believe whatever you want, but we have the actual guy who oversaw the creation of the quests telling us this is how it happened.



Great contribution. See above post. I have no desire to debate whether or not the guy who is responsible for the quests is right or wrong.

So if every sha was released in the Horde/Alliance battle (which is actually a Jinyu and Hozen battle, with a few Horde/Alliance leading them) then why are the Mantid digging below the Niuzao temple after they are already affected by the Sha?

[KrazyK923]

...because they are their enemy?

Have you done the "Siege of Niuzao Temple" 5-man? They're simply using that way to get into the area...

If their goal was to free the Sha of Fear, why would they continue to do that in the 5man, which takes place after the story in the Townlong Steppes? Its because its an effective way to attack their centuries-old enemy. They use the tree to burst into the backside of the Temple.

They have the capability to attack the Temple from a way that isn't a frontal assault. Its honestly not more complicated than that.

[Thage]

So if every sha was released in the Horde/Alliance battle (which is actually a Jinyu and Hozen battle, with a few Horde/Alliance leading them) then why are the Mantid digging below the Niuzao temple after they are already affected by the Sha?

My best guess? Same reason people who were brainwashed by Yogg-Saron were digging shit up for him--his bonds were broken, allowing him to corrupt the mantid empress, but the physical prison still kept him from razing the countryside. No proof here, mind, just an attempt to reconcile the events of the quest with the official word on how things went according to the guy who's basically got the second to last word on lore (the last word being Metzen himself).

[Sandrox]

...because they are their enemy?

Have you done the "Siege of Niuzao Temple" 5-man? They're simply using that way to get into the area...

If their goal was to free the Sha of Fear, why would they continue to do that in the 5man, which takes place after the story in the Townlong Steppes? Its because its an effective way to attack their centuries-old enemy.

All of that takes place on a different island, just southwest of the temple. The quests I linked earlier specifically state that the Mantid were digging below the Niuzao temple, where the Sha of Fear was imprisoned. They have no reason to be digging down there if the Sha is already released.

[KrazyK923]

All of that takes place on a different island, just southwest of the temple. The quests I linked earlier specifically state that the Mantid were digging below the Niuzao temple, where the Sha of Fear was imprisoned. They have no reason to be digging down there if the Sha is already released.

Have you never heard of an enemy attacking from a way that isn't the frontal-assault? For the love of god lol. I should have stopped posts ago.

Why the hell do you think they're doing what they are in the 5man? They're burrowing up through the tree and making a bridge over to the Temple's island.

They could be dropping magical cows onto the place from airplanes and it wouldn't matter, we have the word of god telling us the Horde and Alliance unleash the Sha.

[Sandrox]

Have you never heard of an enemy attacking from a way that isn't the frontal-assault? For the love of god lol. I should have stopped posts ago.

Yet the mantid never use it to attack them.

[KrazyK923]

Yet the mantid never use it to attack them.

Because the player is sent down there and stops them, holy fuck lol.

I gotta go. Bye. Need to sleep before I get infracted.