[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[nightfalls]

You will find yourself having to sit on full stacked selfless healer or using it when it really isn't needed. As long as the talent requires you to waste globals on judgment and is locked on two single target heals, it really will be a weak and for the most part useless talent.

Basically this^^

I repeat, what's the point of wasting a GCD on judgment when I could just be spamming more heals instead?

[Kyuuseishu]

Utility doesn't necessarily require uniqueness. Your error is that you believe it does.

Considering the topic of this thread, if you are gauging holy paladin utility as a reason that they are a must have, then the fact every other paladin spec brings the exact same utility as a holy paladin bar the absorbs (which in 5.4 quite a bit of it is disappearing through mechanic changes) then there is no undeniable reason that a raid NEEDS a holy paladin.

[Mortal Strike]

And your error is you think raids will bring a holy paladin if they lack throughput and unique utility.

You're not talking about utility anymore. You're talking about being a special snowflake. There's a big difference. Holy Paladins have plenty of utility and can do a lot of things to help their guilds defeat bosses. Guilds have not stopped recruiting Holy Paladins. Your concern about the changes is warranted, but you've crossed over into paranoia.

[Deleted]

Holy Paladins already aren't in the best place right now, and pretty much only Resto Shamans are worse than us but at least they bring utility. Selfless healer is no option, once again I can't even begin to understand the design behind it, why on earth would we go back to judging on cooldown (something that was deemed to not be fun by Ghostcrawler himself) just to get a buff on a heal you never use (FoL) and a heal you almost never use (DL). Maybe if Selfless Healer would proc off of Holy Shock until then I see no reason to take it.

The only way I could see myself taking selfless healer is the current PTR version(makes DL instant and mana free). The problem with how SH is designed is that you're investing a lot of gcds in a heal that's not even that good to begin with.

[Deleted]

You're not talking about utility anymore. You're talking about being a special snowflake. There's a big difference. Holy Paladins have plenty of utility and can do a lot of things to help their guilds defeat bosses. Guilds have not stopped recruiting Holy Paladins. Your concern about the changes is warranted, but you've crossed over into paranoia.

No he really hasn't.

Aura Mastery - Brought by all Paladins.
Hand of Protection - Brought by all Paladins.
Hand of Freedom - Brought by all Paladins (good on fights like Iron Qon heroic if a caster gets reduced cast time by spear lines).
Hand of Purity - Brought by all Paladins.

So tell me now, why shouldn't my guild ask me to spec Prot (considering they are in such a good place right now) and then ask the Guardian Druid to spec Resto in return seeing as Resto Druids are much stronger than us? Or maybe ask our Brewmaster Monk to spec Mistweaver and bring Utility that no other Monk spec will bring. What actual benefit do I bring as Holy than I couldn't bring as any other spec?

[Pasture]

It doesn't have to be for the damage done. I just meant an atonement heal as in, I judge and someone gets healed for x amount. Since it's on a CD (unlike disc priests) I expect the heal could be a decent amount.

I'd want them to increase judgment cooldown if they did this for the same reason I didn't like SH back on the MoP PTR when it was considered mandatory. We already Holy Shock every 6 seconds. Having to also Judge every 6 seconds means a lot of your 6 second healing window is predetermined by abilities you have to use not to be wasteful.

I don't mind using judge, just not every 6 seconds in addition to Holy Shock.

[Freia]

You're not talking about utility anymore. You're talking about being a special snowflake. There's a big difference. Holy Paladins have plenty of utility and can do a lot of things to help their guilds defeat bosses. Guilds have not stopped recruiting Holy Paladins. Your concern about the changes is warranted, but you've crossed over into paranoia.

You can keep telling yourself that. You are still wrong. If tranq, revival, divine hymn, htt, etc was brought by every spec of their class and/or just as powerful, you would see the other healers complain a ton. Wanting to be a special snowflake...lol. We are special, we are the only class whose utility is brought by all specs. How is that for special? Can I be ordinary like the other classes and actually have utility seperate from the other specs of my class now?

No he really hasn't.

Aura Mastery - Brought by all Paladins.
Hand of Protection - Brought by all Paladins.
Hand of Freedom - Brought by all Paladins (good on fights like Iron Qon heroic if a caster gets reduced cast time by spear lines).
Hand of Purity - Brought by all Paladins.

So tell me now, why shouldn't my guild ask me to spec Prot (considering they are in such a good place right now) and then ask the Guardian Druid to spec Resto in return seeing as Resto Druids are much stronger than us? Or maybe ask our Brewmaster Monk to spec Mistweaver and bring Utility that no other Monk spec will bring. What actual benefit do I bring as Holy than I couldn't bring as any other spec?

Add in they are not going to make the same mistake next tier that they did this tier and allow so many tank debuffs to be bopped off so that won't be as important.

[Pizza the Hutt]

No he really hasn't.

Aura Mastery - Brought by all Paladins.
Hand of Protection - Brought by all Paladins.
Hand of Freedom - Brought by all Paladins (good on fights like Iron Qon heroic if a caster gets reduced cast time by spear lines).
Hand of Purity - Brought by all Paladins.

So tell me now, why shouldn't my guild ask me to spec Prot (considering they are in such a good place right now) and then ask the Guardian Druid to spec Resto in return seeing as Resto Druids are much stronger than us? Or maybe ask our Brewmaster Monk to spec Mistweaver and bring Utility that no other Monk spec will bring. What actual benefit do I bring as Holy than I couldn't bring as any other spec?

None of those things you listed are all of a sudden brought by all Paladins rather than just Holy. They've been brought by all Paladins the entire expansion and more. And yet Holy Paladins have been more than fine for this entire expansion. If your guild wanted to make the roster changes you describe in your final paragraph, they could have done that patches ago. However, they did not. Why would they all of a sudden do that now? Because Holy isn't going to be as good of a healer? Then your anger should be directed at Holy's potential healing shortcomings, not their supposed "lack of utility."

Yeah it would have been nice to have a raidwide defensive cooldown that stopped physical damage, too, especially in Heart of Fear. And yeah, it would have been nice to have a host of other things that other classes get. But I'm sure there are people playing other classes that look at some of the things we have and say "damn it would be nice to have something like that."

[Fashionstarz]

SH would have to be really really really good for me to take it. Using judgement on cd is just obnoxious.

[Kyuuseishu]

None of those things you listed are all of a sudden brought by all Paladins rather than just Holy. They've been brought by all Paladins the entire expansion and more. And yet Holy Paladins have been more than fine for this entire expansion. If your guild wanted to make the roster changes you describe in your final paragraph, they could have done that patches ago. However, they did not. Why would they all of a sudden do that now? Because Holy isn't going to be as good of a healer? Then your anger should be directed at Holy's potential healing shortcomings, not their supposed "lack of utility."

Yeah it would have been nice to have a raidwide defensive cooldown that stopped physical damage, too, especially in Heart of Fear. And yeah, it would have been nice to have a host of other things that other classes get. But I'm sure there are people playing other classes that look at some of the things we have and say "damn it would be nice to have something like that."

I think you should read the majority of the posts in this thread before you post again since it all isn't based around holy paladin utility, if you take away the healing from holy paladin's they are left with their utility. But the utility isn't unique to holy so it is entirely possible a holy paladin could be asked to switch to one of the other two specs whilst another stronger healer class could be asked to switch to the healing spec of their class. This entirely depends on the philosophy of the guild of course.

[Deleted]

I think you should read the majority of the posts in this thread before you post again since it all isn't based around holy paladin utility, if you take away the healing from holy paladin's they are left with their utility. But the utility isn't unique to holy so it is entirely possible a holy paladin could be asked to switch to one of the other two specs whilst another stronger healer class could be asked to switch to the healing spec of their class. This entirely depends on the philosophy of the guild of course.

Pretty much this.

People in this thread are arguing that Holy Paladins will still be brought after the nerfs because of their utility, and our counter claim is that well if the other specs provide the same utility there is no reason to bring Holy anymore.
Having the same utility was fine whilst we could hold our own, be competitive and do our job well. This is no longer the case and utility that any other spec of Paladin could also bring is not good enough anymore.

[Freia]

None of those things you listed are all of a sudden brought by all Paladins rather than just Holy. They've been brought by all Paladins the entire expansion and more. And yet Holy Paladins have been more than fine for this entire expansion. If your guild wanted to make the roster changes you describe in your final paragraph, they could have done that patches ago. However, they did not. Why would they all of a sudden do that now? Because Holy isn't going to be as good of a healer? Then your anger should be directed at Holy's potential healing shortcomings, not their supposed "lack of utility."

Yeah it would have been nice to have a raidwide defensive cooldown that stopped physical damage, too, especially in Heart of Fear. And yeah, it would have been nice to have a host of other things that other classes get. But I'm sure there are people playing other classes that look at some of the things we have and say "damn it would be nice to have something like that."

No we will also talk about holy's lack of utility because every time we talk about holy's potential healing shortcomings we get told "Holy will still be mandatory because of all the utility you bring". And they use this supposed utility as an excuse why our output should be lower.

[Elovan]

What people need to realize is that each build released is not every single change they plan on doing at the time they release it, nor is it in any way supposed to be taken as final. Every "If they release the patch as is..." is a waste of a post because there is no reason to think that the builds this early are final or even complete.

Everyone's concerns here are legitimate and are definitely worth taking a look at, but it's unfair to claim Blizzard "doesn't know what to do with the spec" for releasing an early build that has experimental changes in an iterative design process. I guarantee your arguments and concerns will come off a lot better if you drop the dramatic doomsaying and focus feedback on 1) What works with the class 2) What doesn't work and 3) What changes could be made to fix that, rather than just repeating that Holy Paladins won't be brought to raids anymore (which would only be true for hardcore progression guilds anyways).

[Xs]

Everyone's concerns here are legitimate and are definitely worth taking a look at, but it's unfair to claim Blizzard "doesn't know what to do with the spec" for releasing an early build that has experimental changes in an iterative design process. I guarantee your arguments and concerns will come off a lot better if you drop the dramatic doomsaying and focus feedback on 1) What works with the class 2) What doesn't work and 3) What changes could be made to fix that, rather than just repeating that Holy Paladins won't be brought to raids anymore (which would only be true for hardcore progression guilds anyways).

Its not just the hardcore elite that have to keep up with trends, if you have a Druid and a Paladin who are both comfortable Tank/Heals you'd have to be a very casual guild not to ask them to swap, or have them just swap of their own accord. In the argument of Druids in this case, they can do everything we can healing wise but better, the only utility they don't bring over us is Effective Health via shielding, but given a large enough class pool Druids can surpass Paladins with shier utility via Symbiosis.

[Medario]

You can keep telling yourself that. You are still wrong. If tranq, revival, divine hymn, htt, etc was brought by every spec of their class and/or just as powerful, you would see the other healers complain a ton. .

To be fair: Tran is a General Druid spell (though scaled down for other specs) and HTT is a Talent for Shamans. It´s not fully comparable to spell being casted the resto spec, but still. Considering a possible Change to DA it would work maybe the same as in Holy adds to DA a physical abosrb or longer duratiob or healing received increased.

---------- Post added 2013-06-23 at 10:51 PM ----------

What people need to realize is that each build released is not every single change they plan on doing at the time they release it, nor is it in any way supposed to be taken as final. Every "If they release the patch as is..." is a waste of a post because there is no reason to think that the builds this early are final or even complete.

Generally some true words, but: GC has said they dislike the mechanic of EF giving absorbs, therefore they remove Mastery on EF hots and they will (eventually) compensate somehow else. This isn´t a scaling nerf like EF hots heal for 50% or Bacon Transfer is lowered or so, it´s a Change of a spell mechanic and it not only changes the way this spell and therefore the Talent works, but possibly the playstyle of Holy Paladins.

Everyone's concerns here are legitimate and are definitely worth taking a look at, but it's unfair to claim Blizzard "doesn't know what to do with the spec" for releasing an early build that has experimental changes in an iterative design process. I guarantee your arguments and concerns will come off a lot better if you drop the dramatic doomsaying and focus feedback on 1) What works with the class 2) What doesn't work and 3) What changes could be made to fix that, rather than just repeating that Holy Paladins won't be brought to raids anymore (which would only be true for hardcore progression guilds anyways).

Possibly. I´d like to see more of a discussion about the Balance of the talents in T3 for Holy than the comparison to druids and Monks. The adjustments to the other classes can and shall be done afterwards. On the other Hand the concerns about Palas having a tough life competing for spots isn´t totaly off.
A simple healing increased by % x isn´t going to do it.
Well guess we gonna get new PTR patch nws monday/tuesday..

[Freia]

To be fair: Tran is a General Druid spell (though scaled down for other specs) and HTT is a Talent for Shamans. It´s not fully comparable to spell being casted the resto spec, but still. Considering a possible Change to DA it would work maybe the same as in Holy adds to DA a physical abosrb or longer duratiob or healing received increased.[COLOR="red"]

And that is what I said. Tranq and HTT are not the same for every spec, it is far weaker for the non healing specs. DA is completely the same for all specs of paladin and at no times have the developers even implied a possible change to DA for holy, so this "all they would have to do is change it for holy" has really no part to the discussion I was having.

Possibly. I´d like to see more of a discussion about the Balance of the talents in T3 for Holy than the comparison to druids and Monks. The adjustments to the other classes can and shall be done afterwards. On the other Hand the concerns about Palas having a tough life competing for spots isn´t totaly off.
A simple healing increased by % x isn´t going to do it.
Well guess we gonna get new PTR patch nws monday/tuesday..

I'd rather have a discussion on what could be done to boost us as a whole to make us on par with monks, druids, and priests, because just balancing the rest of that tier to nerfed Eternal Flame sure as hell isn't going to help the spec. And just a simple heal percentage increase isn't going to be enough without some mechanics changes across the board.

[Medario]

And that is what I said. Tranq and HTT are not the same for every spec, it is far weaker for the non healing specs.

Hm, after re-reading it, yep. Sorry missread, guess it´s really time for bed.

DA is completely the same for all specs of paladin and at no times have the developers even implied a possible change to DA for holy, so this "all they would have to do is change it for holy" has really no part to the discussion I was having.

That was an example. It´sone other ability which should be reworked though

I'd rather have a discussion on what could be done to boost us as a whole to make us on par with monks, druids, and priests, because just balancing the rest of that tier to nerfed Eternal Flame sure as hell isn't going to help the spec. And just a simple heal percentage increase isn't going to be enough without some mechanics changes across the board.

As I said as well: a % increase isn´t going to fix it; shamans suffered from that for years.
The balnce of the Tier is a start. Furthermore the Change to EF has to be compensated with other new or changed Tools.
And afterwards it has to be adjusted ins caling etc to other specs. Of course it´s a viable path to go for to check other classes abilities to get an idea of the possible strength of the new /changed ability of ours. But ranting about : the others are better and we Need more isn´t going to solve it either if you get what I mean. And just to get things straight: I am not saying you did so. I am Aware of your Posts here so far

[Deleted]

Boomkin tranq is actually stronger than resto tranq with HotW

[Medario]

And just a simple heal percentage increase isn't going to be enough without some mechanics changes across the board.

To be honest a major Change (removal ) to how absorbs work would probably be the best for purposes of balancing.

[nightfalls]

Boomkin tranq is actually stronger than resto tranq with HotW

That's the intent behind the 5.4 HotW change, but I don't like their approach. It takes a lot of "spirit" out of the talent, turning it into an active Resto talent that requires being used as a healing CD, when in my opinion it should only buff the active spec passively and be used only to change roles, not enhance your own.

If anything, HotW should just not buff tranq, and only make the actual healing spells (rejuv, healing touch) on par with Resto's version.