[Balance] 5.4 Changes and Thoughts

[Abysal]

I also laughed when i read this, they wanted to remove the passive mitigation, and what do they replace it with? Passive mitigation... xD

The difference is they wanted to remove passive mitigation in raids. The vast majority of damage that ranged DPS takes in raids is spell damage. Last I checked armor doesn't mitigate spell damage.

This change basically gives boomkins and priests armor somewhere between mail and plate DPS I think. It doesn't put them ahead of everyone else in a typical fight the way 15% dmg reduction does.

[Aboubacar]

The difference is they wanted to remove passive mitigation in raids. The vast majority of damage that ranged DPS takes in raids is spell damage. Last I checked armor doesn't mitigate spell damage.

This change basically gives boomkins and priests armor somewhere between mail and plate DPS I think. It doesn't put them ahead of everyone else in a typical fight the way 15% dmg reduction does.

The problem is that if you remove that passive reduction and NS at the same time, you've left boomkins in particular with nothing but barkskin. Nothing to save you from a big hit or whatever. Spriests have disperse, but outside of that I'd say the fade glyph is pretty lackluster.

It's a pretty big deal, but it's really just chipping away at hybrid utility one chunk at a time to me. The issue mentioned from devs was something along the lines of a problem with tuning the damage of boss abilities when 2 specs were always taking 15% less damage.

Why don't they scrap feint since that's basically a 60% passive DR if used properly. How does cloak/wall for rogues have the same cooldown as barkskin? Why does recup outheal renew? Mages have 2 abilities to escape certain death while spriest only has one and boomkin has 0? temporal shield is off the gcd and heals for more than cenarion ward? These classes also, on average do more damage than the classes that now have less survivability? Again I beg the question to the devs and the community, why bother to play a hybrid when pures do it all better?

---------- Post added 2013-06-23 at 07:09 AM ----------

why bother to play a hybrid when pures do it all better?

because starfall looks cool my friend.

[Broodling67]

Why don't they scrap feint since that's basically a 60% passive DR if used properly.

Because its not passive, it still needs to be activated and used properly as you said. Which sounds like it fits the bill exactly of what Blizzard wants, more active mitigation that the player controls rather than taking less damage just because some one rolled a certain spec or class. Don't get me wrong I agree with you, they are really shooting us in the foot with these changes and then not giving us anything to work with in return.

I'm still hoping there is still more 'testing' to do on the PTR and we see some new tools added at some point but until then I think Boomies and Spriests everywhere have to stomp their feet and make noise so Blizz doesn't forget us or think its a good change.

[Mystikal]

I can get on board with the idea of active mitigation - rewarding those who use it properly to take less damage than those who don't - but 12s of Barkskin once per minute can only take you so far. I don't want to go back to where I used to be, where I couldn't help soak big hits like Hour of Twilight and generally feeling like a fifth wheel (until the boss had been mega-nerfed, that is).

If Blizzard wants us to start using active mitigation, we need more tools to use. Turning the Barkskin glyph into something more like Divine Protection (40% magic damage reduction every 30s) and adding Might of Ursoc to the Glyph of the Moonbeast would be two good places to start.

[Aboubacar]

Because its not passive, it still needs to be activated and used properly as you said. Which sounds like it fits the bill exactly of what Blizzard wants, more active mitigation that the player controls rather than taking less damage just because some one rolled a certain spec or class.

Okay well imagine if barkskin had no cooldown, mitigated 60% rather than 20 and cost 20k mana. Seems a bit over the top to me.

Blizzard has no plans to "compensate" boomkins and shadow priests for the 15% DR loss. You'll see with the next few PTR builds what I mean. It's really frustrating to see the toolkit like it is on the PTR atm.

[Broodling67]

Okay well imagine if barkskin had no cooldown, mitigated 60% rather than 20 and cost 20k mana. Seems a bit over the top to me.

Blizzard has no plans to "compensate" boomkins and shadow priests for the 15% DR loss. You'll see with the next few PTR builds what I mean. It's really frustrating to see the toolkit like it is on the PTR atm.

I think if they were to make make Barkskin a carbon copy of Feint it would be closer to 60k mana (20% of the resource bar) but I would still say its fair as it has to be used correctly and spamming it would it end being a dps loss at some point, still no where near being considered "Passive". But I get your meaning, Everyone else has several ways to protect themselves, some even seem OP. All boomies have is Barkskin and their feathery hides, like I said I agree with you. What they are doing to us, and spriests, is just dumb.

As for Blizzard having no plans to compensate us for the damage reduction nerf, I'd say you still need to make sure you are heard that you do not like the change, of course they aren't going to bother giving us anything if we roll over and take it.

[Deleted]

What would you say if Feint (or any serious damage reduction ability) wouldn't cost mana but would move the eclipse bar 20 energy backwards outside of an eclipse and forwards inside? That would be an interesting design I think.

[Deleted]

I really hope that they look at the damage our two set is doing, because 1k hits just isnt acceptable.

[Drayarr]

What really gets at me is we work hard to make balance play well, we adapt, yet we always get smacked in the f**king face with the nerf bat, yet idiotcrab is giving the op broken classes more sh!t they dont need warlocks need more NERFS not buffs. Mages need tones the F8ck down. Balance needs some movement capabilities and before you jump on the "stack more crit and use SS while you move" band wagon, thats not comparable to what other classes have.
That 4pc is a joke. It needs to be completely redesigned.

Hopefully if enough people can produce enough well written, carefully constructed, mathematically sound proof then maybe we might get somewhere

Ranting after a CRAP weekend at work, didnt exactly want to hear all this crap about moonkins getting the shaft and op classes getting more sh!t they dont need.

/rantoff

[huth]

I really hope that they look at the damage our two set is doing, because 1k hits just isnt acceptable.

No balancing yet. Irrelevant. Worry about the 4p, not the 2p.

[Cyous]

What would you say if Feint (or any serious damage reduction ability) wouldn't cost mana but would move the eclipse bar 20 energy backwards outside of an eclipse and forwards inside? That would be an interesting design I think.

Tying anything to Eclipse is really, really bad. We have a very strict spellcasting system, and adding any other variance makes it a nightmare. With that said, If Barkskin wasa 30sec CD, 8sec duration, with 20% DR (glyphed to 45sec CD, 40% magical DR), that would be acceptable.

Another idea is to change Symbiosis: Unending Resolve to Spell Lock, then give Balance Druid a 50% Shield Wall ability baseline (and don't touch Barkskin). This would remove the dependance on having a warlock and open the door to multiple possibilities for PVE and PVP. (CloS and AMS are stil powerful, but HOJ, Spell Lock, and other abilities may be 'situationally' stronger.)

[Aboubacar]

Tying anything to Eclipse is really, really bad. We have a very strict spellcasting system, and adding any other variance makes it a nightmare. With that said, If Barkskin wasa 30sec CD, 8sec duration, with 20% DR (glyphed to 45sec CD, 40% magical DR), that would be acceptable.

Another idea is to change Symbiosis: Unending Resolve to Spell Lock, then give Balance Druid a 50% Shield Wall ability baseline (and don't touch Barkskin). This would remove the dependance on having a warlock and open the door to multiple possibilities for PVE and PVP. (CloS and AMS are stil powerful, but HOJ, Spell Lock, and other abilities may be 'situationally' stronger.)

Owls are animals just like cats and bears, why don't owls have an instinct to survive as well? See where I am going with this?

[Reyzzz]

I'd like to see a few changes to boomkin survival cds:

Barkskin buffed to 30% dmg reduction, added immunity to silence/interrupts for duration.

Renewal CD to 1 minute.

Add another survival cd that lets balance soak stuff so we aren't so reliant on symbiosis.

QoL changes:

-Add revive to glyph of moonbeast
-Change symbiosis for some spec/class combos.
-Add something so balance doesn't lose 90% of dps while moving.

[Cyous]

Owls are animals just like cats and bears, why don't owls have an instinct to survive as well? See where I am going with this?

I see the direction you're taking. Both ideas are valid and actually fair in a balancing sense.

[Syrco]

I'd like to see a few changes to boomkin survival cds:

Barkskin buffed to 30% dmg reduction, added immunity to silence/interrupts for duration.

Renewal CD to 1 minute.

Add another survival cd that lets balance soak stuff so we aren't so reliant on symbiosis.

QoL changes:

-Add revive to glyph of moonbeast
-Change symbiosis for some spec/class combos.
-Add something so balance doesn't lose 90% of dps while moving.

I'd like to see some of these changes. Especially the Barkskin buffed damage reduction, cause it's way too low, and now they're nerfing our damage reduction in form so we need it.

[gorgail]

they need to make the boomkin form with armour all the time, id love that.... sorry just wanted to share that with you guys :P

[artem123]

Hopefully if enough people can produce enough well written, carefully constructed, mathematically sound proof then maybe we might get somewhere

Sad thing is this would probably do nothing. The best bet for them 'fixing' something that they nerfed is mass flood to the forums. You could have the like best ideas with nothing that could be considered OP or bad and it still wouldnt be used by blizz

[Holydee]

I think its time to mass fill forums..someone make a thread and give a link ..but talking about this might be against game policy lol

[Sainiunit]

I really dislike 4-piece. If I choose Incarnation, I'm still going to line up CA with incarnation.
Soul of the forest sounds like the best option to choose for this 4-piece.

Also, we are squishyyyyyyyy. God forbid a mage pyrofucks us in the face. O_o

[Slapsgiving]

Also, we are squishyyyyyyyy. God forbid a mage pyrofucks us in the face. O_o

Or that holy paladin from going shockadin on you for the laughs... which they will probably get. +15% more burst on chickens, umitigated, yay!

But concerning my previous post:

I still think that longer DoT duration is a must have. One of the reasons for which the spec feels so clunky to me is the frequency with which I need to reapply DoTs in a number of situations -stop thinking high-end raiding alone, I am talking PvP and challenge modes, for instance, or simply outdoors humdrum questing & farming. I find myself reapplying DoTs all the frigging time and I have the feeling that last SS proc before our DoTs drop would grant us a lot more kills in BGs/Arenas and a lot of smoothness overall. It is no coincidence longer DoT duration was a set bonus -it is really powerful. By contrast, I feel constantly gimped without it.

This is of special relevance if you consider PvP, as so many of our famous "escape tools" mean: a) Running away like a coward or/and b) Shapeshifting. In both cases, the only damage you can do while trying to survive for a meager few extra seconds is DoT damage, and then fish for a SS proc right before going back to moonkin form again. This will only get worse with the mitigation nerf.

As to Astral Storm / Hurricane being channeled while proceeding with your rotation being a bad idea - Why so? I would rather lose Starfall, which is the main cause of imbalance between eclipses, and have a channeled Astral Storm / Hurricane that you could control á la Immolation Aura from Demo warlocks. This would benefit from procs such as haste, allowing you to interrupt/recast to adjust, which is way more interactive mechanic than using a GCD in casting a spell you have no further influence on and which, let us not forget, it is cancelled when you shapeshift.

Furthermore: being able to cast while channeling would also allow you to proceed to the next eclipse way faster, which would solve a lot of our AoE uselessness -when NG is over, the damage drop is abysmal when you are camping an eclipse for hurricane. If you would get to the next eclipse quickly through a couple of casts (let us dream of SS charges a little longer), that would be a way less annoying hindrance. At least, that is the way I see it.

Concerning mushrooms: if you check what they did with restoration, I think using a similar system for balance could work. Something along the lines of a single mushroom in a single GCD, that you could replace at will and which let us say absorbed all your SS procs during solar (to a maximum of let us say 3) to add it to Detonate base damage and were unable to crit. If we get fancy, it would also advance you towards lunar for the energy value of the stored SS procs *grin*. Something like this would hardly be broken and add a lot of value to the spell, making it worthwhile and, hell, I bet a lot of fun.

Lastly, and seeing what they have done with Fel Flame, I wonder how difficult it would be for Blizzard to change Lunar Shower NOT to overwrite the initial DoT with its snapshot values while adding the increased damage portion. This could also help a lot with movement, not a perfect solution but certainly a gain and I doubt anyone could see anything imbalanced about it.

I won't even comment on the 60% armor thingy because it is laughable and totally in the wrong direction. Boy, am I dreading 5.4...