Heroic Five Mans in Cata.........Spot on

[Osmeric]

I just don't understand the mentality that because something is too hard for me and 4 strangers that may or not be even looking at their screens, we need to fix it so that it's convenient for us to clear in a timely manner, as opposed to making people turn off the tv and actually pay attention to the game and improve if neccessary.

You mean, you don't understand why the game designers design for the players they actually have, as those players actually have been found to play?

Or is it that you don't understand that the primary purpose of the game is to make money, not instill virtue?

[RickJamesLich]

There's a lot of things that get misconstrued on these boards, one of the big ones is that casuals hated heroics at the start of cata. I was a casual and new many others at the time and we thought they were great, it's just really bad players are in large numbers and they were the ones that complained. But yah, casual doesn't mean the same thing as a bad player, as the stuff didn't really require skill beyond using cc (most of the time you didn't really need it even).

[Shampro]

You're thinking of heroic scenarios, which serve their purpose pretty well, not challenge modes, which serve no purposes other than cosmetic rewards, prestige, and valor. (the cosmetic rewards are removed from the equation once you get all golds, which takes a serious group no more than a couple days)

Challenge modes are a good addition in the game, but they don't fill the role of heroic mode dungeons, which provide heroic quality loot and require heroic ability to differentiate good players/group from bad, and to help you gear your (alt) characters up faster and more efficiently.

I'm not sure there's enough development time to fit everything I'd like into the game, but I'd like to see an expansion that includes:


Normal Mode Dungeons (10min to 1hour) to collect gear for LFR
Heroic Mode Dungeons(25 to collect gear for raiding
Scenarios (10-20 min) fill a similar role as they do now, telling story and providing filler gear in between dungeons and heroics
Heroic Scenarios(10-30 min), same, but in between LFR and raids, or possibly between raids and heroic raids
LFR to give everyone a chance to see the bosses, with watered down versions of the loot (ew)
Normal Raids (1-X hours/week) for those who want to see the content as it was envisioned/designed for the gold standard in loot, epics.
Heroic Raids (X-Y hours/week) for those who want to kill the hardest bosses for the rarest loot.

No im talking about Challenge modes, thier cache provides gear which is the same as Heroic scenarios.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/9679398/
See the Dungeons section right below the Primordious change.

A lot of people honestly dont really want a challenge, they want the easy route.

[Brodeo]

i think what frustrated a lot of people was the toxicity of bad players. the content wasnt too hard, it was too hard to carry bads through. unfortunately wrath made it ok to be bad.

blizzard has always been willing to hemorrage cash to bring their vision of their games to fruition (RIP Ghost). WoW seems to be the exception though.

[PaladinBash]

Heroics are just for zerging through for JP, VP and gearing up right at the first week or two of the expansion right? Why make them 'challenging'? The type of people that want a challenging experience are probably not going to be challenged by them in the least once they have a modicum of gear. I mean yeah mayhap some parts of it would be tricky to be in literally only greens...but failing that, a couple of weeks in they will all be a joke to anyone with any ability at all. That leaves everyone else that's terrible who probably doesn't care at all if heroics are harder or skillful and will probably hate them if they require even the most basic attention paid. Remember the last boss of ZG? I remember zoning into that and be surrounded by skeletons. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope...

So really I get that you want something like Challenge modes but to have a real reward. I'd be totally down with that. Mayhap having a tricksy thing like Challenge modes but rather than focussing on a timed run (which could give its current sexy outfit rewards or titles), let it drop gear LFR level. Bad people won't be able to run it but it gives a way for casuals that are skilled and can only find a few mates to play with to have fun and gear up together outside of LFR.

[shoooter]

When they were first released, 4.0 Cata heroics and ZA/ZG were basically 5-man raids. I loved it! Trash packs took CC and strategy, there were many varied bosses and they took real strategies, performed well by all roles, to defeat. Ozruk, Corla, Jin'do... masterpieces! DS 5-mans not so much, but that was OK by that point in the expansion. It was still nice to get some new bosses with fun new mechanics.

Now I run through and gather up every trash pack into one big AOEfest before each boss. Have literally not CC'd anything in a heroic since MoP. Most bosses are so incredibly boring AND we don't even get any more heroics after 5.0. And don't tell me Challenge Mode, because the rewards are not the same. Scenarios are worthless too. Heroic scenarios are a step in the right directions, but only 4 and only 2 of them new?! LFR is not a replacement either, they are even more mindless and boring to accommodate low DPS and AFK players.

It's just sad it will never be as challenging as it used to be...

[Ichifails]

And far as making heroics more difficult again. We've been there, at the beginning of Cataclysm, and the model failed brutally.
If you want it more rewarding and challenging again, do heroic scenarios. They may be a lot shorter, but they sure have a nice reward and are not really total faceroll.

NO NO NO NO! Stop that bullshit. I really hate when people spread bullshit all over the place. That's not even close to being true.
Cataclysm "Heroics" were a piece of crap. They nerfed the living shit out of them when Cata released, I did them on the beta. They were nerfed and easy as hell. They were in the sweet spot of being too hard for casual people and too easy for people that wanted a challange. That's why the failed the way they did. That's why the entire expansion was a let down. They wanted to balance between Easy and Hard and they disappointed both sides.

I remember doing MGT Heroic for my trinket when I was in Sunwell. That was hard, it was legitimately hard and people had to know what they are doing. You don't know how to CC properly? Well bad bloody luck, you either learn or no one will invite you. Shattered Halls was a pain up to the end of the expansion as well... and that was there at release wasn't it? Was it hard for PuG's and undergeared people? Yes... but there was a place for those, normal dungeons.

There's no motivation for people to learn to play since Heroic Dungeons and Heroic Raids have no reward. Back in the day gear was a motivation because bad people couldn't get it and you could spot a raider in a crowd. Now with transmogrification and 3 different tiers (4soon) of gear looking the same, there's nothing to visually replace it.

[Spotnick]

fhere was no lfr back then, no real point of having dungeons if you can get better lot with less effort.

[Ichifails]

Heroics are just for zerging through for JP, VP and gearing up right at the first week or two of the expansion right? Why make them 'challenging'? The type of people that want a challenging experience are probably not going to be challenged by them in the least once they have a modicum of gear. I mean yeah mayhap some parts of it would be tricky to be in literally only greens...but failing that, a couple of weeks in they will all be a joke to anyone with any ability at all. That leaves everyone else that's terrible who probably doesn't care at all if heroics are harder or skillful and will probably hate them if they require even the most basic attention paid. Remember the last boss of ZG? I remember zoning into that and be surrounded by skeletons. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope...

So really I get that you want something like Challenge modes but to have a real reward. I'd be totally down with that. Mayhap having a tricksy thing like Challenge modes but rather than focussing on a timed run (which could give its current sexy outfit rewards or titles), let it drop gear LFR level. Bad people won't be able to run it but it gives a way for casuals that are skilled and can only find a few mates to play with to have fun and gear up together outside of LFR.

The thing here is that Burning Crusade had heroics that were hard for people in blues and at the same time for people in t6. Of course it was easier once you were clearing BT but it was mostly because you went with your own guild. You were not able to solo heroics at the end of the expansion like people did ever since the first MoP tier.

And Challange Modes? Really? They are easy as piss. There's nothing hard about them except for rushing for the timer... and that's not hard. CM's are all about "Use invis potion to skip mobs, get Gold." There's no CM that took more than 4 tries for my group to clear on Gold... except for SH because it's bugged as fuck. After we got Gold there's no point of going back. No point at all.

[Keashaa]

The thing here is that Burning Crusade had heroics that were hard for people in blues and at the same time for people in t6. Of course it was easier once you were clearing BT but it was mostly because you went with your own guild. You were not able to solo heroics at the end of the expansion like people did ever since the first MoP tier.

Tell me, have to REALLY played during TBC? With T6 gear, all heroics during TBC were of the same difficulty as heroics are today.
And talking about soloing heroics: if (tank) classes would be designed the same as during TBC, no one would solo todays heroics dungeons. The dungeons are not the "problem". The design of classes is the "problem".

[Deleted]

Now I run through and gather up every trash pack into one big AOEfest before each boss. Have literally not CC'd anything in a heroic since MoP. Most bosses are so incredibly boring AND we don't even get any more heroics after 5.0. And don't tell me Challenge Mode, because the rewards are not the same. Scenarios are worthless too. Heroic scenarios are a step in the right directions, but only 4 and only 2 of them new?! LFR is not a replacement either, they are even more mindless and boring to accommodate low DPS and AFK players.

Solo queueing as a tank is just tragic. I did a few heroics today since I needed 150 VP to cap. I was doing 75% of the total damage of the group (not exaggerating), I was doing 300% more damage than the 3 dps added together. I was also doing 60-70% of the healing done. You are basically soloing the instance. My only goal in random dungeons is to get new record times in clearing. So far the fastest clear in a random group was SM in 3 min 40 seconds.

Just today, got into a siege HC, healer left after first boss, all the dps was standing waiting around so I soloed all trash until second boss before we even got a new healer. I even started the event and started bombing myself before the group caught up.

Got into a TJS later, first I cleared the trash for the water boss, told the group to go in and kill it since they did not need a tank. Meanwhile they were killing it I went over to the other side of instance, pulled all trash in one huge AE pull and engaged the boss, got the suns. I actually killed that boss + all trash solo faster than the rest of the group killed the water boss, and we met in the middle.

I actually wish there was a solo queue option so that I could get all the enchanting materials for myself and would not have to be bothered with carrying 4 other people through the run.

Heroics in MoP are just a complete joke.

In both WotLK, Cata and MoP I have passed time by soloing instances. In WotLK I didnt really start soloing until T10 gear, but could probably have done earlier, in Cata I did not solo instances until firelands gear, remember soloing Grim Batol on HC thinking, yeah, people actually wipe here. One of the hardest bosses to solo was funny enough Augh + the crocodile in Lost City. I did solo stonecore until the mount boss and vortex until the mount boss in T11 gear. (was farming them in normal but wanted to try heroic to see if I could do it). Towards the end soloing some ZA/ZG bosses was not impossible, think a few of the end time bosses was soloable aswell.

But that brings us to MoP, MoP is the only expansion where you can actually solo instances in dungeon gear. I was still blue geared when I started soloing in MoP. The MoP dungeons do not even deserve to be called dungeons. I always had the policy that people should not slack in dungeons. So when I reach a boss, I do not wait for the people that are running afk in the end to catch up, I just pull the boss. Sometimes people get locked out and I think that is good, since then they realise they were slacking behind and will (hopefully) be faster the next time. The fun parts have however been when the entire party got locked out. I have on multiple occations soloed / duoed the first boss in both GSS and SPM.

I think the major difference between the expansions has been the meta achievement. The meta in both Cata and MoP was a joke in comparison to the WotLK meta.

I simply do not understand have people can find content as easy as the "heroics" are right now to be enjoyable.

[Ichifails]

Tell me, have to REALLY played during TBC? With T6 gear, all heroics during TBC were of the same difficulty as heroics are today.
And talking about soloing heroics: if (tank) classes would be designed the same as during TBC, no one would solo todays heroics dungeons. The dungeons are not the "problem". The design of classes is the "problem".

I was in Enraged Revolution at the end of TBC and Flare EU at the end of Wrath. Both were world ~100 guilds(Now Flare is pretty much disbanded and Enraged is 107). I'm pretty sure I was better off than most people. I really want to see you do those dungeons as a SP.

I did some Valor capping heroics the other day with 3 other people in my guild, the other guy was a mage that was pulling ~2% of the total damage and DC'd for the last run. We were unfortunate (or fortunate) enough to get Scarlet Monastery 5 times in a row as random.
Each clear took us 3 minutes with an average 526 ilvl between us. This isn't even the end of the expansions highest tier of gear. Imagine what people will do to Heroic Dungeons in full HC 5.4 gear.

Now go back and tell me even in T6 what heroic could be cleared in 3 minutes or less with only 4 people actually in group.

[Aquamonkey]

Heroics in MoP are just a complete joke.

They're not supposed to be hard. They're really just normal mode dungeons for lvl 90s.

We thought about calling them something besides "heroic," since heroic tends to mean hard to a lot of players, but we also needed to call them something, because some dungeons like Temple of the Jade Serpent have a lower-level and a level 90 version. We thought about calling them "level 90 versions" but figured "heroic" required less explanation. (Source)

[Volitar]

2 words:

Challenge modes

Have you done a challenge mode? It's pretty much AOE while using Invis pots at the correct time.

[Oncereborn]

IMO with the introduction of challenge mode that pretty much is what it was like in TBC so if you enjoyed that (I did) you can do those. BUT I think the sweet spot for 5 mans from a gearing up for raids point of view would definetly of been WRATH. In Wrath you could go from being a fresh dinged max level character, to somewhat raid ready through JP/VP type gear in just 1 or 2 days worth of farming.

[Aquamonkey]

IMO with the introduction of challenge mode that pretty much is what it was like in TBC so if you enjoyed that (I did) you can do those. BUT I think the sweet spot for 5 mans from a gearing up for raids point of view would definetly of been WRATH. In Wrath you could go from being a fresh dinged max level character, to somewhat raid ready through JP/VP type gear in just 1 or 2 days worth of farming.

CM are nothing like TBC heroics. TBC heroics you had to watch pats, CC, be careful of the mobs' CC (fear, etc), and mobs running away/pulling other mobs. CM you just zerg through and AoE everything.

[Deleted]

They're not supposed to be hard. They're really just normal mode dungeons for lvl 90s.

Which does not change the fact that dungeons in general in WoW are jokes compared to a lot of other games. I usually try a lot of new MMOs, try them out. Tried out Aion, rift, dragon nest, global agenda, neverwinter, raiderz etc, and I cant think of any of them that had such easy dungeons as WoW have. While leveling you can solo level appropriate 5 man instances easier than the special "solo instances" in Global Agenda.

Dungeons are supposed to be a stepping stone, a training grounds, basic gearing up and basic challenges, challenging enough to help you teach the basics of your class and the game. Something that I do not really think WoW had since the ZA/ZG instances.

IMO with the introduction of challenge mode that pretty much is what it was like in TBC so if you enjoyed that (I did) you can do those. BUT I think the sweet spot for 5 mans from a gearing up for raids point of view would definetly of been WRATH. In Wrath you could go from being a fresh dinged max level character, to somewhat raid ready through JP/VP type gear in just 1 or 2 days worth of farming.

This was true in Cata much more than in wrath. Entry level cata heroics offered a much faster gearing up process than entry level WotLK heroics. The difference though was that naxxramas was not really a raid as much as it was a 10/25 player dungeon.
If you go further into the expansion, you did not get any new dungeons when ulduar released, so dungeons did not get you raid ready at all here, you had to go through old raids.
When ToC released you got one 5 player dungeon, before FL you had ZA/ZG in cata. The difference here is that you could do ToC5HC one time a day and ZA/ZG you could spam with random queue, so you could gear up a lot faste rin ZA/ZG than in ToC5HC, same story in ICC with the ICC dungeons vs Cata End Time dungeons, you could only do the WotLK ones once, you could spam the Cata ones, making you gear up faster. In WotLK you also only got emblems once a day, in Cata you could spam justice points for easy gear up, there was no "soft cap" with justice as there was on emblems.

So really, Cata dungeons offered much better gearing up than WotLK dungeons

Now in MoP, it is exactly the same thing. I dinged a new tank alt in 5.2. After 2 days it was 485 ilvl, did entire ToT LFR, Nalak, Oondasta, Galleon and Sha of Fear and got 0 items, so was with very bad luck. With some luck it could easily have been 495-500 ilvl after 2 days. Easily raid ready for ToT after just a day or two.

[Tekkommo]

You're going to mislead a lot of people with your title, they will think you are talking about the original 5 mans in Cata, which imo were the correct difficulty, but the majority complained.

The 5 mans you mention were too easy for me, especially the twilight ones and I thought they were also designed terrible.

ZA/ZG were fun at first, but having only 2 dungeons available in your LFG runs, was a bad idea. They were also pretty easy, I do recall being in some terrible pugs though, but that's because you get terrible players in LFG.

I would rather have heroic dungeons be heroic. In cata, the first 5 mans were indeed heroic level and good fun. The later dungeons in cata patches, were not heroic for me, but just a basic farm fest with no challenge.

It would be cool to bring back hard heroic dungeons again, and for all the whiners who are just simply not very good at this game, can have scenarios which drop similar gear.

Blizz have basically destroyed 5 mans in this game, by just making them too easy at every level, and the fact that they are meant to be done in 10 mins with no effort for loot or badges or exp.

[Deleted]

It would be cool to bring back hard heroic dungeons again, and for all the whiners who are just simply not very good at this game, can have scenarios which drop similar gear.

Blizz have basically destroyed 5 mans in this game, by just making them too easy at every level, and the fact that they are meant to be done in 10 mins with no effort for loot or badges or exp.

This is kinda what i was thinking of, bring back the pre nerf Cata dungeon difficulty and maybe add an epic that drop from the end boss to give those players something extra. And the people who cant handle it have their Scenarios, could maybe increase droprate from the bags and/or the end boss in the scenario drop some blue.

[Deleted]

Having easy dungeons allows you to create your own challenges though. Me and a tank friend had a competetion who could tank all heroics in random groups (no friends allowed) with res sickness and your real gear / only using your weapon, shield, rings, neck, back and trinkets, rest slots empty (no armor pieces).

IIRC I think we both completed both tasks in all heroics.

Think it got to that point we even started removing gear with res sickness on. Getting those competetive faces on!

Was actually very funny. Heroics was almost hard when you had res sickness, or well, keeping aggro was hard.