Could Riposte make Druids the weakest tanks in 5.4?

[Raugnaut]

oh, didn't know that.

does crit have DRs? how much crit would 7800 of parry rating and 5400 of dodge rating convert to then?

Crit does not have rating DRs- 600 crit will always give you 1% crit chance, going from 0%-over9000%. For dps value, it does have scaling DRs/soft caps, which will be of no concern to warriors/DKs (but is of concern to guardian druids, and potentialy monks)

---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 05:56 AM ----------

Blood DKs don't care about dodge/parry. Haste provides as much survivability and more dps.

Since when does Haste provide equivalent amounts of survivability compared to dodge/parry? It DOES provide significantly more dps, but will provide less overall survivability (1% haste will provide 1 extra DS per 100 DS used. At an average rate of around 10 DS/minute, it would take about 10 minutes to get 1 extra Death Strike. On the other hand, 1% dodge or parry will remove 1 melee attack per hundred attacks. Since boss attacks come in at most at 2.5 seconds, thats 1 damage removed from the table per 250 seconds, or less then every 5 minutes. Dodge/Parry is superior to Haste for mitigation. If my math is wrong, please correct)

Haste will prove LESS mitigation then expertise/hit soft capping does (7.5% for both) and THATS a 4% overall damage reduction from just going for dodge/parry secondaries (All DKs should go with mastery though).

Haste is trash for mitigation, but good for DPS.

[Viromand]

On the other hand, 1% dodge or parry will remove 1 melee attack per hundred attacks. Since boss attacks come in at most at 2.5 seconds, thats 1 damage removed from the table per 250 seconds, or less then every 5 minutes. Dodge/Parry is superior to Haste for mitigation. If my math is wrong, please correct)

Didnt they change the swingtimerto 1.5 to make the Pala SotR mitigate 2 attacks. And thats why the normal melee damage does almost 0 dmg even on heroic.

For dps value, it does have scaling DRs/soft caps, which will be of no concern to warriors/DKs (but is of concern to guardian druids, and potentialy monks)

As far as I know, crit only has a softcap in terms of RPS for druids and the rate of gaining elusive brew stacks for monks, dps wise crit is still the best dps stat until hardcap.

[Purrberry]

I know this is a druid tanking thread and it has somewhat derailed, but DKs in a haste build may lose SLIGHTLY more mitigation than in a mastery build but the dps gains far outweigh that slight loss of mitigation (Our DK tank went 13/13h with the DPS 4-piece and going hit/exp>haste without any issues with keeping him alive for the most part... and that was mainly DK issues in general for things that are better tanked with a shield-tank).. I can't really think of a time in all our heroic progression where the tank was just getting hit too hard and we were failing. 99% of the time a wipe is from mechanic issues and so you reach a point where over-mitigating as a tank and producing far less dps isn't helping anything. I'm not arguing that haste build is more mitigation, but it's not as far off as people seem to think. And my belief with this new ability at least applied to DKs is to offer them dps gains while sticking to appropriate tanking items.

More on topic, with stat scaling and the fact that crit/rage build is absolutely the best mitigating way to tank as a druid that I don't think druids will need it this next tier. Crit rating can easily hit 65-70% (maybe even more depending on DR in scaling) fully buffed which will lead to more mauls to rage dump when you don't need to hit frenzied regen and savage defense is already up which will lead to more dmg. I could be wrong, I haven't main tanked on my druid this expansion, only use it as a rarely needed OS, but I still see good things on the horizon.

[Maelstrom51]

Since when does Haste provide equivalent amounts of survivability compared to dodge/parry? It DOES provide significantly more dps, but will provide less overall survivability (1% haste will provide 1 extra DS per 100 DS used. At an average rate of around 10 DS/minute, it would take about 10 minutes to get 1 extra Death Strike.

1) I said survivability, not damage taken. The reduced interval between Death Strikes can help a lot.
2) DKs have a resource loop, which provides more than the expected 1% more Death Strikes per 1% haste.
3) More haste means more Taste of Blood stacks, which is a 100% chance on each auto attack while using a 2h weapon, and provides 20% increased Death Strike healing.

For overall damage taken from melee attacks, haste provides ~65% of the damage reduction as dodge/parry, assuming your main stat is mastery. Add in magic damage and unavoidable attacks to increase the heal provided by Death Strike, and it comes much closer. The real benefit, however, is the reduction of RNG. Dodge/parry cannot be relied on, while haste always reduces the interval of your Death Strikes.

[huth]

As far as I know, crit only has a softcap in terms of RPS for druids and the rate of gaining elusive brew stacks for monks, dps wise crit is still the best dps stat until hardcap.

Well, it has an (obvious) hard cap at 100% and all secondaries lose DPS value over time specificially because they always give a constant percent point bonus per rating.
The bonus to your unmodified DPS remains constant, but you never do unmodified DPS, so your effective bonus goes down the more of the stat you already have.

[Viromand]

Well, it has an (obvious) hard cap at 100% and all secondaries lose DPS value over time specificially because they always give a constant percent point bonus per rating.
The bonus to your unmodified DPS remains constant, but you never do unmodified DPS, so your effective bonus goes down the more of the stat you already have.

What is unmodified dps?
And why should Crit have DR in value never heard of that

[Odina]

Just to give an example for a warrior... in my full tanking set I have 3625 dodge and 3128 parry. so basically with Riposte I can expect about 3.37% crit.... HOLD THE DPS MEETERS HERE COMES TEH DEEPS!

It's sad really it's a great idea but horrible execution as wars will go hit exp caps then mast to crit block cap and stam so we avoid dodge parry like a plague and as such Riposte won't really do F all!

This is why druids will not loose there spot above wars at least...also with the change to ultimatum... if riposte gave us more crit then maybe but as it is I will be getting less ultimatums per fight than I do now as well!

[Impaktx]

For all intensive purposes, druids already have lost their competitive edge in 25m tanking. For 10 man, they are still one of the best off tanks, if only through their ability to mitigate the damage that the main tank takes.

Also, be grateful that dodge tanks are going to be amazing in this next tier. Multiple bosses are going to be made much easier by tanks that can dodge well.

[huth]

Intents and purposes.

What is unmodified dps?
And why should Crit have DR in value never heard of that

In this case, your DPS at 0% crit. The DR is simply due to how the mechanics work, and affects all ratings, not just crit. It even affects AP and SP. Getting 10 AP when you have 50 is a lot, getting 10 AP when you have 5000 is a drop in the bucket. Same principle at work.
(Though it works backwards for parry and dodge.... their value goes to infinity when you approach 100%, which is why the rating DR on them was implemented in the first place)

[Viromand]

In this case, your DPS at 0% crit. The DR is simply due to how the mechanics work, and affects all ratings, not just crit. It even affects AP and SP. Getting 10 AP when you have 50 is a lot, getting 10 AP when you have 5000 is a drop in the bucket. Same principle at work.
(Though it works backwards for parry and dodge.... their value goes to infinity when you approach 100%, which is why the rating DR on them was implemented in the first place)

If you gain 10 ap and have an ability that scales with 100% of AP it will do 10 more dmg. sure it will be an 20% dmg increase when you only have 50AP and a 0.2% dmg increase if you have 5000AP. but the actual dmg gained is the same.

600critrating will always give you 1% crit and if 1% crit gives you 1% dmg increase 2% crit will give you 2% dmg increase.

If you hit a target 100 times and each time it does 1dmg you will have done 100dmg. If you have 1% so 1 attack does 2 dmg instead of 1 you wil bbe at 101 which is a 1% dmg increase. If you have 2 attacks crit you will do 102dmg and have a 2% dmg increase.

If you look at parry and dodge. lets say 500 rating gives you 1% dodge that doesnt mean 1000 rating gives you 2%.

If 50% crit mean you will do 50% more dmg than 51% crit will let you do 51% more dmg.


If I take your example. So again lets say an Ability with 100% AP scaling.

A 20% increase to my AP means I do 20%more dmg.
A 0.2% increase to my AP means I do 0.2% more dmg.

Still the dmg increase would be 10 dmg. It has nothing to do with DR, you are just saying a 0.2% increase is less than a 20% increase.

going from 1% extra dmg to 2% extra dmg is a 100% gain on the extra dmg thats true,

[huth]

If you gain 10 ap and have an ability that scales with 100% of AP it will do 10 more dmg. sure it will be an 20% dmg increase when you only have 50AP and a 0.2% dmg increase if you have 5000AP. but the actual dmg gained is the same.

0.2% is less than 20%, so your return was lower despite the AP increase being static. That's diminishing returns.

For crit, you have to compare the total damage from your new crit chance to the total damage from your old crit chance, not to your damage with no crits, to get the damage increase.
50% crit to 51% crit is a meager 0.666...% increase.

51% crit only lets you do 51% more damage than 0% crit. But nobody ever has 0% crit without encounter specific debuffs.

[Arielle]

All of this is pretty semantic though, since Crit is still the best DPS stat (after Hit and Exp) until you cap at 103%.

[Anuibus]

Just to give an example for a warrior... in my full tanking set I have 3625 dodge and 3128 parry. so basically with Riposte I can expect about 3.37% crit....

Its more like 5.6%, which still isn't anything to really care about. Druids also get 50% extra haste and crit from gear, just throwing that out there.