Is Vengeance Getting Out Of Control?

[Dasani]

Never understood why DPS players get so butthurt over a tank doing more damage than them. It's not like you can stack tanks and make it work, so when you only have one or two tanks doing their job and pulling high numbers what difference does it make? It's shocking really that so many people get bent out of shape that a tank does more damage than them. And honestly aside from trash pulls (and sometimes not even that with survival hunters, good warlocks, etc) tanks don't outDPS the DPS unless they are absolutely awful or the one odd fight here or there allows tanks to hold multiple things on them at once which is where all that dps really comes from.

Single target, a good dps will beat a tank unless there is a gimmick.

[Normie]

as soon as a tank can beat an equally geared, equally competent dps, then it will need a nerf.

Why?

All a DPS needs is to show up and not stand in more fire than the healers can heal through. You can pretty much watch videos and get loot if you aren't on heroic progression. WHy do you think you should be "top DPS" along with all that?

[celinamuna]

I never see tanks as top dps in lfr or normal(other than AoE, which is acceptable), and as soon as a tank can beat an equally geared, equally competent dps, then it will need a nerf. For now though, it is fine how it is.

LFR are a terrible indicator of fights, and I'd look at your tanks if they're not beating your dps at least in gimmick fights (horridon)

[Ragashii]

In principle I can agree with this, but I still think tanks should do some level of damage. Tank DPS was also a thing before uncapped vengeance also. Having a reasonable non-trivial amount does make tanking a lot more engaging. Just having 3x DPS spec damage is "not needed" and only marginalizes DPS.

Tanks can do some damage sure, but they should never beat someone who's only job is to perform that role. I think that part of the reason Vengeance still exists is to lure dps players away from dpsing and still have decent numbers. Most players who DPS find big numbers fun and switching to a tank who has smaller numbers isn't fun for them. But now that dps players have started to try out tanks more the DPS mentality has bled into tanking somewhat. The players that switch don't find value in taking less damage but instead they value doing more damage. Once all the tanks are wearing DPS gear, you can expect these lines to blur even more.

I mean when you think about it, you are supposed to play through most of the game as DPS. But as more and more players switch from DPS they want to retain that damage as well. Which has led to healers getting more damage etc. I do not oppose the idea, but I do not think that damage should become the reason you roll a tank or a healer in the future.

[nightfalls]

I never see tanks as top dps in lfr or normal(other than AoE, which is acceptable), and as soon as a tank can beat an equally geared, equally competent dps, then it will need a nerf. For now though, it is fine how it is.

At least in LFR, as the tank, I'm nearly always top or almost top (when I actually tank). The most I've tanked in normals (I play healer/DPS main) would be ToES, and well, tanks don't generally do good damage on Sha of Fear or Lei Shi.

But against someone who's 520+ gear and actually good? Hmm, I probably wouldn't beat them. Maybe.

[glycerethe]

I think it's ridiculous that people are comparing a nerf with going back to TBC/vanilla days, it's not an excuse to escape a nerf, when you are doing ridiculously high damage with certain skills(e.g. shield slam), with 1 button hit on cd and a no-brainer, then something needs to be done, it's frustrating for any dps class/spec to watch their dps got thumped by the tanks with just a couple buttons while dps is min-maxing using everything they got just trying to keep up.

It's certainly giving a false imagine for beginners thinking that they should be playing tank rather than dps because dps do less damage and couldn't tank.

It's basically like back in the TBC days where so many people rolled feral druid because you can do just that with 1 spec.

[Raugnaut]

A couple notes.

A) all avoided/absorbed/mitigated attacks will give 2% of UNMITIGATED damage (or, for dodge/parry, average of the total damage, or more then actually taking the hit) as vengeance.

B) There will be no vengeance mechanic change mid-expansion. There MIGHT be a vengeance change next expansion.

C) Currently, there is NO vengeance cap coming in next patch. GC said it was on the table, but it hasn't been implemented on the 5.4 PTR. What HAS happened is that vengeance from getting crit has been nerfed- crit is simply extra damage taken.

D) If the 5.4 vengeance changes actually did come in, only 10/25 man would be capped by the wording of what GC said. LFR/5 man/Challenge modes would remain the same.

E) Capping vengeance all around would nerf tanks greatly in challenge modes, and would make 80% of comps invalid for gold (Anyone with a tank). Tanks depend on HP-capped vengeance AND proper execution of cooldowns/stuns for gold times.

Finally, a re-iteration on an earlier post- there are only a very, VERY few fights where tanks will have enough vengeance to out-dps GOOD dps. For these fights, the amount of incoming damage on the tanks is enough that they HAVE to have that high amount of AP to actually survive. (DKs tend to be not as good on these fights, such as Ra-Den, since thier mitigation does not scale with AP)

[celinamuna]

Tanks can do some damage sure, but they should never beat someone who's only job is to perform that role. I think that part of the reason Vengeance still exists is to lure dps players away from dpsing and still have decent numbers. Most players who DPS find big numbers fun and switching to a tank who has smaller numbers isn't fun for them. But now that dps players have started to try out tanks more the DPS mentality has bled into tanking somewhat. The players that switch don't find value in taking less damage but instead they value doing more damage. Once all the tanks are wearing DPS gear, you can expect these lines to blur even more.

I mean when you think about it, you are supposed to play through most of the game as DPS. But as more and more players switch from DPS they want to retain that damage as well. Which has led to healers getting more damage etc. I do not oppose the idea, but I do not think that damage should become the reason you roll a tank or a healer in the future.

Except that's not what makes good tanks.
Good tanking is a balance of doing the maximum possible dps w/o dying. This always existed, just now max tank dps isn't 45% of dps's dmg instead of 30%.

And even now, if you go for "max" dps you will get pooped on, quickly.

[Radio]

It was already clarified on the top, last i've remembered it didn't i guess i missed that change (due to not playing monk/druid), however unless it also accounts for specials (ie ji-kun's talon rake) it's still < veng than if you would've gotten hit by it.

Let me explain it in more depth:

ALL incoming damage to a tank consists of:
- melee autoattack damage
- specials
- (in 5.4) flagged specials (don't give vengeance, stopping tanks standing in fire and shit)

Melee autoattack damage goes under an algorithm to quickly give you most of the vengeance that you would expect to get if you were getting hit straight for 20 seconds. This would mean that all auto attack damage is based on averages, and not avoiding the hits, and not mitigating the hits. Have you ever noticed how your vengeance 5 sec into the pull isn't much less than your vengeance 20 sec into the pull at all?

Specials that are not flagged (so they give vengeance) are strictly converted to AP based on the original damage that would've been dealt to a naked player.

When your vengeance is updated, it goes through this formula (source):

old veng - decay + new veng = new total veng (decay being 5% per second since last update)

[Deleted]

I love that our tanks push out decent/good numbers
Why would i want to nerf my own raid?

[celinamuna]

Let me explain it in more depth:

ALL incoming damage to a tank consists of:
- melee autoattack damage
- specials
- (in 5.4) flagged specials (don't give vengeance, stopping tanks standing in fire and shit)

Melee autoattack damage goes under an algorithm to quickly give you most of the vengeance that you would expect to get if you were getting hit straight for 20 seconds. This would mean that all auto attack damage is based on averages, and not avoiding the hits, and not mitigating the hits. Have you ever noticed how your vengeance 5 sec into the pull isn't much less than your vengeance 20 sec into the pull at all?

Specials that are not flagged (so they give vengeance) are strictly converted to AP based on the original damage that would've been dealt to a naked player.

When your vengeance is updated, it goes through this formula (source):

old veng - decay + new veng = new total veng (decay being 5% per second since last update)

Again, i didn't know that, and after that i've only seen this :

Avoidance will now grant Vengeance based on the average damage of the avoided NPC auto-attack, instead of just refreshing existing Vengeance.

You will never "lose" or have "zero" veng from avoiding attacks.

Regardless of that, the only thing it changes is that it's easier for blizzard to balance out defensive and offensive stats to be equally valuable for tanks, just different tank styles.

[Ragashii]

Good tanking is a balance of doing the maximum possible dps w/o dying.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, or why you quoted my post but thanks for proving my point about DPS mentality bleeding into the tanking role.

[Ihnasir]

Is this really about tank DPS during leveling? It was always higher, as they're better equipped to handle AoE pulls with more AoE-based spells and abilities. Vengeance, if anything, is weak. I leads to tanks taking unnecessary damage to just boost their DPS and plays a huge role in soloing.

[celinamuna]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, or why you quoted my post but thanks for proving my point about DPS mentality bleeding into the tanking role.

"Bleeding into the tanking role." ?
This has always been in the tanking role, you always wanted to do the most. It never changed.
In icc you tried to do the highest dps w/o dying (hint you didn't just go afk once the other tank taunted).
In BT you tries to do the highest dps w/o dying.
In BWL you tried to do the highest dps you can do w/o dying.

It never changed. Just now the difference between you just auto attacking, taunting on CD to keep up the agro and popping CD's every 2 min can be noticed from pushing the max potential. (Just like dps was always about dpsing as much as possible w/o dying because you didn't move out of fire, or healing as much as possible w/o dying due to standing in the same fire)

[klaps_05]

Tank dmg can easily be reduced by 50-60% by increasing the threat modifiers all tank classes have but it will make tank play very dull

[Ragashii]

"Bleeding into the tanking role." ?
This has always been in the tanking role, you always wanted to do the most. It never changed.
In icc you tried to do the highest dps w/o dying (hint you didn't just go afk once the other tank taunted).
In BT you tries to do the highest dps w/o dying.
In BWL you tried to do the highest dps you can do w/o dying.

It never changed. Just now the difference between you just auto attacking, taunting on CD to keep up the agro and popping CD's every 2 min can be noticed from pushing the max potential. (Just like dps was always about dpsing as much as possible w/o dying because you didn't move out of fire, or healing as much as possible w/o dying due to standing in the same fire)

Tanking has never been about damage. If you are tanking to maximize your numbers then you should probably just go play a DPS role because that's obviously what you want to do. The reason tanks had to do as much damage as possible back then was out of necessity, not because they wanted to. If you didn't do as much damage as you could back in those days then the DPS would either rip threat off of you or creep up on you later in the fight. A lot of attacks back then didn't even do damage to begin with but instead delivered high threat. Tanking has always been about threat management which was tied to tank dps somewhat. Even if a tank pushed out max dps back then they weren't doing anyone a favor because the contribution was negligible. It was like asking your healers to shadow word pain the target, it was just a waste of mana and you would be better off just getting more DPS from your DPS in the first place. Once Blizzard added Vengeance and took out threat management then tank DPS started to matter more, which is probably when you started tanking right? Because you sound like a DPS in a tanking role.

[celinamuna]

Tanking has never been about damage. If you are tanking to maximize your numbers then you should probably just go play a DPS role because that's obviously what you want to do. The reason tanks had to do as much damage as possible back then was out of necessity, not because they wanted to. If you didn't do as much damage as you could back in those days then the DPS would either rip threat off of you or creep up on you later in the fight. A lot of attacks back then didn't even do damage to begin with but instead delivered high threat. Tanking has always been about threat management which was tied to tank dps somewhat. Even if a tank pushed out max dps back then they weren't doing anyone a favor because the contribution was negligible. It was like asking your healers to shadow word pain the target, it was just a waste of mana and you would be better off just getting more DPS from your DPS in the first place. Once Blizzard added Vengeance and took out threat management then tank DPS started to matter more, which is probably when you started tanking right? Because you sound like a DPS in a tanking role.

So what you're saying is that in a fight where there were basic taunt switches once the other tank taunted you just turned off auto attack and went afk ?

Because if it's not then you wanted to do more dmg. Sure you might've not been doing a lot more, but a tank taking X damage and doing 100 dps was always worse than tank taking X dmg, but doing 105 dps.
It's the same fucking reason people pre-potted and etc.

you would be better off just getting more DPS from your DPS in the first place

Except you couldn't. They are doing max dps by default.
Even back then, even when damage was minimal, if you could do an extra 1% of your damage, you did it. If you could do +1% healing you did it. (Effective ofc, not talking about multidotting adds that don't need to die and etc).
But at any point doing X+1 > X

And no oddly enough i was tanking even in LK with the amazing 69 rotation of a prot paladin.

[nightfalls]

Once Blizzard added Vengeance and took out threat management then tank DPS started to matter more, which is probably when you started tanking right? Because you sound like a DPS in a tanking role.

Tank DPS has always mattered, just now it's predominant. I mean, if you were properly geared, aside from DK, what else did you have to do?

---

Even as someone who thinks Vengeance was badly broken this expansion, I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that tanks won't be maximizing DPS, or that tanks won't be topping meters at times. But I do think that they could make the ceiling (and floor!) a little lower for tank damage.

[Deleted]

With that mindset, if you were to approach this as a brand new player would it not raise questions as to why the protection spec warrior was doing more damage than yourself - a DPS spec? If it's a nuisance to myself, someone who's been playing off and on since Vanilla, then I can only imagine how irritating it could be to someone new.

First of all, that description is years old, not how it is now.
Second prot warriors, the lowest dps tank gets yer love, brilliant.
If you get consistently beat by any tank (specially warr) as dps, you need to focus on becoming a better dps and whine less.

Vengance should be fixed so it doesnt stack on avoidable damage, nuiter tank damage the way you want and you'll lose half of the current tanks, myself included. I'll roll a dps then.
A brand new player would have no idea whats what and wouldnt cry like you do cause you cant beat tanks
/thread.

[celinamuna]

But I do think that they could make the ceiling (and floor!) a little lower for tank damage.

Except you don't get to the actually extremely high dps by even standing in fire, it's mostly insane dmg intake (aka H dark animus + tons of adds).
Even right now, all of those nice fire patches on the ground won't help you that much to do "max dps" (enough to cheeze by people in WoL but not enough to push you from doing half of dps dmg to 1.5 dps dmg).
Granted i don't have a problem with tanks not getting veng from standing in void zones and fire patches.
But nerfing tank veng gained that they get from legitimate tanking is silly.

And there is no floor, i've seen tanks doing ~50-60k dps in heroics with veng. It's not just a magical +100k dps buff.


And let's say we do nerf tank damage, what's next ?
Tanks complain about healers doing any damage what so ever "shut up and heal"
And we go back to wonderful world where dps do normal dmg, tanks do invisible damage for threat and healers just heal. Great, sounds like fun game.