Protection Warrior Vs. Protection Paladin

[Deleted]

For druids I can tell you that they take the least dmg on Jinrokh,Tortos(not the easiest but still the best if looking at a overall dmg taken pov), Jikun, Durumu and Primordius. Plus druids are the tanks taking the least dmg from melee attacks, on every fight. The druids absorb is higher than a Warriors, but it can only be use against normal attacks but can stack which the warrior one cant. This is for 10m.

Druids can also solo tank Council the easiest of all tanks. Even easier than monks. Dat savage defense.

[Deleted]

For druids I can tell you that they take the least dmg on Jinrokh,Tortos(not the easiest but still the best if looking at a overall dmg taken pov), Jikun, Durumu and Primordius. Plus druids are the tanks taking the least dmg from melee attacks, on every fight. The druids absorb is higher than a Warriors, but it can only be use against normal attacks but can stack which the warrior one cant. This is for 10m.

Average damage intake isn't something that anyone should ever worry about. This is the only thing that druids are really good at sadly (not counting the veeeery rare dodgeable important tankmechanic)

[Gliff]

For druids I can tell you that they take the least dmg on Jinrokh,Tortos(not the easiest but still the best if looking at a overall dmg taken pov), Jikun, Durumu and Primordius. Plus druids are the tanks taking the least dmg from melee attacks, on every fight. The druids absorb is higher than a Warriors, but it can only be use against normal attacks but can stack which the warrior one cant. This is for 10m.

I 100% guarantee you that warriors are better at Durumu then any tank class. They completely negate the big hit he does.

What are you basing these off of? Logs? Because you have to take into account that WoL do not display monk damage taken correctly.

[Viromand]

Average damage intake isn't something that anyone should ever worry about. This is the only thing that druids are really good at sadly (not counting the veeeery rare dodgeable important tankmechanic)

I wouldnt call 6/13 very rare.

Jinrokh, even if played perfectly from tanks you will still have 2-4 seconds left on the debuff sometimes, getting hit while in the puddle does alot of dmg to the tanks and raid with high stacks. Same goes if the other tank was thrown.

council, the extra damage can be avoided while dodging malaks frostweapon.

Tortos, dodging melee attacks and the bite helps you stack the shield. Due to high selfheal your shield will not drop that fast even after a stomp usually my shield is still up. And even with a fully stacked shield snapping bite does almost no actuall dmg to you. Not saying they are the best or easiest on that fight but in terms of dmg taken they are the lowest.

Jikun, you get no stacks and I mean almost nothing if you use SD correctly. I get 1-3 stacks of infected talon average before it falls off again. And talon rake is not even an issue on heroic if the boss is played correctly. And most tank deaths on jikun are mainly caused by infected talons.

Primordius again you gain the stacks alot less frequent than other tanks.

Durumu, due to very high selfhealing until 3-4 stacks you selfheal yourself to full, and to complete negate the big hit from him as a warrior you would need alot of vengeance gained from the dot from the big hit. Warriors are really strong on durumu aswell I never said otherwise.

And melee dmg does count, not that much and you will most likely not die from them but you cant completely ignore it. You can also say big hits dont count that much cause they dont accure that often or a cooldown is used. And making it irrelavant.

I 100% guarantee you that warriors are better at Durumu then any tank class. They completely negate the big hit he does.

Does the debuff lower absorbs if not im wrong about durumu. Again not saying warriors are bad infact from a healer PoV i find warriors to be the easiest to heal by far. And warriors are also mainly focused on avoiding normal melee dmg. Druids are not the best tanks ingame dmg taken wise, their RNG is still on the table, you can go from lowest dmg income to highest the next time you are killing tortos, its very rare to have really bad rng.

What are you basing these off of? Logs? Because you have to take into account that WoL do not display monk damage taken correctly.

Some are based on logs and personal experience, as a tank that tanked all the current tier with all cotanks possible and from myself as a healer. We had a long search for a second tank after our warrior tank quit. going through alot of logs from equally skilled guilds looking and looking at dmg taken from top300 guilds with all different tank setup we choose to either get have warrior or a monk to tank with me. pala was also on the table but after we tested like 3 of them and they were really bad.

If you have another pala in your raid and really good dps that dps requirements are not problem Warrior is actually a better tank than a pala to get back on the main topic.

The problem is the overall utility, and sadly a dps warrior brings the exact same utility as a prot one plus the other tanks do higher dmg, this may not be as important in 25m but in 10m it is. You can kill every heroic boss with every tankcomp, but most of the average hc guilds that have 4-8 heroic kills dont have all dps playing at a near perfect lvl. So extra dmg from tanks comes quite handy.
And looking at the new legendary cloaks if druid monks and pala can take the dps one again than dps wise warriors will fall behind even more.

[Deleted]

The problem is the overall utility, and sadly a dps warrior brings the exact same utility as a prot one plus the other tanks do higher dmg, this may not be as in 25m but in 10m it is. You can kill every heroic boss with every tankcomp, but most of the average hc guilds that have 4-8 heroic kills dont have all dps playing at a near perfect lvl. So extra dmg from tanks comes quite handy.

Warriors seems to be getting some damage buffs though in the next patch, not sure how significant they are, but possible they will be closer to the other tanks in damage next tier, coupled with the banner, I see warriors being extremely strong tanks in the next tier because as you already mentioned, warriors are actually better tanks than paladin if you exclude the current dps gap between them.

[Deleted]

I wouldnt call 6/13 very rare.

Jinrokh, even if played perfectly from tanks you will still have 2-4 seconds left on the debuff sometimes, getting hit while in the puddle does alot of dmg to the tanks and raid with high stacks. Same goes if the other tank was thrown.

council, the extra damage can be avoided while dodging malaks frostweapon.

Tortos, dodging melee attacks and the bite helps you stack the shield. Due to high selfheal your shield will not drop that fast even after a stomp usually my shield is still up. And even with a fully stacked shield snapping bite does almost no actuall dmg to you. Not saying they are the best or easiest on that fight but in terms of dmg taken they are the lowest.

Jikun, you get no stacks and I mean almost nothing if you use SD correctly. I get 1-3 stacks of infected talon average before it falls off again. And talon rake is not even an issue on heroic if the boss is played correctly. And most tank deaths on jikun are mainly caused by infected talons.

Primordius again you gain the stacks alot less frequent than other tanks.

Durumu, due to very high selfhealing until 3-4 stacks you selfheal yourself to full, and to complete negate the big hit from him as a warrior you would need alot of vengeance gained from the dot from the big hit. Warriors are really strong on durumu aswell I never said otherwise.

And melee dmg does count, not that much and you will most likely not die from them but you cant completely ignore it. You can also say big hits dont count that much cause they dont accure that often or a cooldown is used. And making it irrelavant.

I did not only mean melee attacks. Damage you took during the fight / fight lenght is not important. It's about spike damage. Sadly druids are kings at taking spike damage.

On the fights where druids are good (excluding council) they are only just as good as the other tanks.

Jin'rokh: Agreed. Dodging his melee attacks with stacks is great. However other tanks also have cooldowns they could use, as this only happens once every 1.5 min to one of the tanks. AMS for example.

Council is perfect for druids. Can't argue with that.

Tortos is in no way good for druids. They are most definitely the worst tanks for that fight. What can a druid do on that fight? Tank the bats --> hope for no RNG hits that destroy your shield. Can't stack a bloodshield or something like that before the bats spawn. Can't average out bat hits like warriors can.
Every bite that is taken without a tanking cooldown will break your shield (goes through armor). While druids can heal up half a shield, other tanks can just avoid having it broken.

Ji-kun is a great example of what I mean about average damage taken. Yes druids can take far less damage from the bleed. Druids however are quite limited in the amount of talon rakes they can take. Again: Druids are just as good as other tanks on this fight. While they may take less damage (it's a bleed so it is not spiky), they will take more non-absorbed talonrake damage.

I don't know a lot about Primordius, so I can't comment on that.

And durumu: I don't see what would make a druid better than other classes there? The fact that you take reduced healing just makes spike damage a lot more dangerous.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

This is a huge misconception, just saying. TDR is also completely out of whack between tanks, it's just not measurable as easily as DPS is (and even a tool like raidbots wouldn't be accurate assuming it existed, since a tank being able to withstand more damage will tend to try to tank more mobs/cheese more mechanics etc.)
And when it comes to surviving spikes, SBar/Stagger/SoTR are on a totally different power tier compared to SD/Death Strike, lol.

People should stop looking at TDR, it isn't really a useful metric. Short bursts are what kills tanks, not damage taken over the entire fight.

[Deleted]

People should stop looking at TDR, it isn't really a useful metric. Short bursts are what kills tanks, not damage taken over the entire fight.

But recount said!

[Viromand]

It's about spike damage. Sadly druids are kings at taking spike damage.

Sure druid dmg is more spikey than other tanks but its not like they spike every 30seconds. With good uptimes on SD and T&C that really rare atleast I never hardy see myself get bursted alot, and even if you still have 2 heals of the GCD.

Ji-kun is a great example of what I mean about average damage taken. Yes druids can take far less damage from the bleed. Druids however are quite limited in the amount of talon rakes they can take. Again: Druids are just as good as other tanks on this fight. While they may take less damage (it's a bleed so it is not spiky), they will take more non-absorbed talonrake damage.

On every heroic try or kill no tank every needed to take more than 3 stacks and even 4 stacks is easily survived by a druid, even with 522 gear or something like that.
I dont know if you are refering to normal but infected talons is really spikey and the most tank deaths are not caused by talons rake, infact they are caused by infected talons spike dmg. Jikun is the best example for druids cause they are the best tanks on that fight. Unless you are really bad at using cooldowns or looking at timers. jikun is even better for druids than Council.

The only real encounter where you can get oneshooted are horridon last phase, and every tank can get one shotted there.

The stuff about druids beeing spiked alot is not true with the implementation of T&C and thats was like 5.1 or so. Yes druids either dodge / absorb the melee hit or take it, but with the high passive through armor and while in bear its not like they will kill you. Just cause SotR has a certain% written in it doesnt mean they take % less thand ruids. Just look at everything passive plus armor and so on, SotR will still win thats for sure.

Yes you can say a druid cant take 6-7 stacks of talons rake but why should any tank want that? There is absolutely no reason to do that. Not even in terms of getting more vengeance, cause it would be an overall dps loss. to not let the other tank take some.

You must only have raided with bad druids cause there are only a few times where I actually spiked to death that was not my own fault bad really bad rng. That was twice tortos, once on horridon and once on jinrokh.

Warriors seems to be getting some damage buffs though in the next patch, not sure how significant they are, but possible they will be closer to the other tanks in damage next tier, coupled with the banner, I see warriors being extremely strong tanks in the next tier because as you already mentioned, warriors are actually better tanks than paladin if you exclude the current dps gap between them.

So far the changes seem rather minor. And Im guessing if the tanks can use the dps cloak again, warriors and dks will fall off even more. right now it seems the buff rather keeps the gap as it is right now going into the next tier. Cause it would have just gotten alot bigger during the next tier

[Deleted]

Warriors seems to be getting some damage buffs though in the next patch, not sure how significant they are, but possible they will be closer to the other tanks in damage next tier, coupled with the banner, I see warriors being extremely strong tanks in the next tier because as you already mentioned, warriors are actually better tanks than paladin if you exclude the current dps gap between them.

Riposte, enrage changes etc seems to total out to around 20% dmg increase in its current iteration.
You will still be ~18-20% higher dps as paladin, about ~30% as monk.

Whats strong with our banners(That any spec brings) ?
0,5% raid increase if used with hero ?
Or the fact it doesn't work on environmental damage since it needs to apply a debuff to target for a low 10% DR ?

In what way are warriors better tanks ?
I can think of multiple reasons why we're worse, but im genuinely curious about why you think so

[Viromand]

Riposte, enrage changes etc seems to total out to around 20% dmg increase in its current iteration.
You will still be roughly ~18% higher dps as paladin, about ~30% as monk.

Whats strong with our banners ?
0,5% raid increase if used with hero ?
Or the fact it doesn't work on environmental damage since it needs to apply a debuff to target for a low 10% DR ?

In what way are warriors better tanks ?
I can think of multiple reasons why we're worse, but im genuinely curious about why you think so

How is an about 8-12% crit buff with a few changes to enrage going to be a 20% dmg increase? Yes the changes help you a bit but I dont see or heard of a 20% dmg increase.

Critbanner is a very strong cooldown and is more than 0.5% increase during BL. When used at the start of a figh with bloodlust thats about oberall 30k rdps in 10m when used every 3min after that.
Rallying cry and the other banner are one of the best Raidcds. Currently only a fully stacked SS, the one from paladins on magic dmg, are stronger.
Safeguard is really strong, its the best offtanking ability ingame followed by druids T&C.
Warriors have a high baseline avoidance. And the best add control abilitly ingame.

[Deleted]

How is an about 8-12% crit buff with a few changes to enrage going to be a 20% dmg increase? Yes the changes help you a bit but I dont see or heard of a 20% dmg increase.

Critbanner is a very strong cooldown and is more than 0.5% increase during BL. When used at the start of a figh with bloodlust thats about oberall 30k rdps in 10m when used every 3min after that.
Rallying cry and the other banner are one of the best Raidcds. Currently only a fully stacked SS, the one from paladins on magic dmg, are stronger.
Safeguard is really strong, its the best offtanking ability ingame followed by druids T&C.
Warriors have a high baseline avoidance. And the best add control abilitly ingame.

Going by the numbers posted by teh warriors in ze warrior forums, maybe that was when it was assumed it was % based and not ratings.
Either way, you only make my point stronger, how the gap is still huge and not nearly enough of a buff...

Ok fine, its a 1% instead of 0,5%
Rallyin cry is strong, also why i didnt mention it and addressed the issues with demo banner, which for a 10% that requires a target(read useless on certain mechanics) isnt game breaking.
Safeguard is a talent, which you wont always take...and doubt it will be picked often with vigilance changes.
Paladins have higher base stamina...
SW is strong but debatable if it makes us beast control tank, certainly not the best add tank...

[Darkfrosty]

I took a break from the game shortly after MOP was released and just recently returned. I played a DK all through Cata and switch to blood for DS and really enjoyed it. From reading through this post it seems like blood DKs are not the most ideal tank for this tier thought. Is that true?

[Deleted]

Sure druid dmg is more spikey than other tanks but its not like they spike every 30seconds. With good uptimes on SD and T&C that really rare atleast I never hardy see myself get bursted alot, and even if you still have 2 heals of the GCD.

I am indeed making it sound worse than it really is. You are going to be held back when progressing with a good guardian. What I am trying to say is that they do not bring anything especially useful to a setup that one of the other tanks cannot bring. This + the fact that they are able to spike even with great play, makes them less valuable for a raid than another tank. Guardians just seem a bit stuck in an "off-tank" role. The issue is that there is no need for such a thing anymore.

In regards to the ji-kun thing: o.o
I've only ever had a tank die to the bleed damage if he decided to just fly off without a healer. The tankkiller always seems to be the talonrake.
I am indeed raiding with bad guardian tank (s?), but I am trying to keep that bias out of a discussion.

I took a break from the game shortly after MOP was released and just recently returned. I played a DK all through Cata and switch to blood for DS and really enjoyed it. From reading through this post it seems like blood DKs are not the most ideal tank for this tier thought. Is that true?

Blood DK's are not the most ideal no. Again they will not drag down a team if the player is good. Blood DK's kind of work for both the "main-tank" and the "off-tank" role, as they can setup blood shields for burst and can spread them out for ease of healing. Blood DK's feel balanced/middle of the pack (talking about 10 mans here), while monks and pallies are above them.

[Orion Antares]

Whats strong with our banners(That any spec brings) ?

I'd take issue with this supposedly being a problem. The banners aren't spec exclusive but they also aren't mutually exclusive. That means you can have more than one warrior in the raid. One prot and one dps warrior would not hinder the raid as far as raid buffs go because those banners can be used at different times or chained.

[Deleted]

I'd take issue with this supposedly being a problem. The banners aren't spec exclusive but they also aren't mutually exclusive. That means you can have more than one warrior in the raid. One prot and one dps warrior would not hinder the raid as far as raid buffs go because those banners can be used at different times or chained.

you'll gimp your tank setup by bringing a prot warr when you could just bring a fury with the same utility.

[Viromand]

You are going to be held back when progressing with a good guardian

I can sort of agree on that one, acutally me dying to RNG once on Tortos actually messed up our first kill. But we killed him a few tries later.

Either way, you only make my point stronger, how the gap is still huge and not nearly enough of a buff...

And that is the only problem in 10m when trying to chose tanks. All tanks have are almost equal in terms of dmg taken, beeing able to get spiked to death. There is actually only one boss where tanks get really high, even on bosses durumu or iron qon which you can 1tank on heroic the tank dmg not that high. The actuall difference in having a boss by different tank classes is so low that its not even noticed by healers most of the time.

So the next thing is utility, sure you can argue what utility is and how much tank x brings more to the raid while progressing on boss y. But even here there are differences but not gamechanging looking at the whole tier (with the exception of clemency from palas but again dont need a tankpala for that).

So the only thing that really makes a difference is DPS and currently monk palas and druids do more dmg than warriors or dks while maintaining there survivability or even raising it. even with the new changes to warrior I dont think any one of them will be running crit gems.

A tank should always be picked on what the raid needs, do you have no other pala in your raid, a tankpala is your choice. Already have a plate tank why not go with a druid or monk.
How do you tanks come along, I can tell you that two tanks that play very good together and are better in every way than having the best tankcombo available.
You have an average skilled protection pala and an really good skilled druid/warrior, take the druid or warrior. A druid messing up one firstkill due to really bad RNG, is not as worse as a palatank messing up kills cause he played bad.

[Orion Antares]

you'll gimp your tank setup by bringing a prot warr when you could just bring a fury with the same utility.

You gimp your raid setup more by bringing two DPS warriors.

[khalamo]

You gimp your raid setup more by bringing two DPS warriors.

There is easy fix for that. Get 1 warrior tops?

[Deleted]

good old vanilla times when warriors were the only tanks.. now often as warrior i feel like im holding back our guilds progression, i really starting to hate blizz for this stuff that always warriors feel like behind other tank classes, its quite fine atm tho, but still im sure some our raid team secretly hopes that they would have pally/monk tank in team..