5.4 trinket discussion

[-Raer-]

I can't even believe this. When I read the trinket I assumed "major ability" meant basic throughput spells (thinking along the lines of riptide or mortal strike). Applying this to major offensive cooldowns is crazy enough, but for much more pvp-oriented abilities like vanish, evasion, and smoke bomb? Yeah, a 10% damage reduction's got nothing on 39% off these cooldowns.

Rogues don't have CDs on basic throughput spells, what would this apply to otherwise?

[Lulbalance]

I seriously hope blizzard decides to remove defensive CDs from the trinkets. For shamans it reduces shamanstic rage to like a 39 sec CD.

Else I reckon people will still neglect the 10% dmg reduction and still use the PvE trinkets. After all, if the trinkets DO reduce defensive CDs, why bother with 10% passive dmg reduction when 3-4 of your defensive CDs have a lower CD...?


If the trinkets do get scaled down (which would be somewhat logic, else it wouldn't be worth it to upgrade the trinkets besides the stats)

yea true.. its a big if.. but they have to see this coming, srsly.

[Lulbalance]

I can guarentee you that's a typo Lul, there is no way they would give us a trinket with 2k int and 84% crit + haste + mastery for 20 seconds. Definitely a typo. Just for the sake of dreaming though, can you imagine what that would do to Affliction and Shadow dots? GG no Re. It's like 10-100 times stronger than Unerring Vision of Lei Shen.

Edit: hahahahha - what am I thinking? Forget Shadow or Affliction, think about what that would do to Chaos Bolts! 84% crit + 84% mastery? Hilarious. We can dream.

i knnnooww right? lol. forgive my drunken dreaming but when i listed it for burst i was thinking about my mage, LOL. chaos bolts would be even more bananas with the crit scale. i also didnt see that it was 20 seconds..wtf is this? i sorta assumed <10s for some reason...oh yea; because even that is insanity :s.

let's hope your right and its a typo.

---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 05:58 AM ----------

400k chaos bolts in PvP huehuehue

Imagine more abilities like eviscerate. Already getting hit for 110k eviscerates back to back. Also got hit 144k rising sun kicks, and even done 160k rising sun kick on a dk on the ptr. Imagine the proc + tigerseye brew = like 70% dmg increase.

@Noujou, on gawd... The increased mastery alone would -literally- increase the damage of TV/Crusader Strike and 1 more ability by like 50% xD

Unh DKs would also be loving the trinket, especially in RBGs.

Frost mage wouldnt benefit from it -that- much next patch, but I reckon alter time + all 3 procs would literally mean 100ks back to back.

Shadow priest + dev plague and insanity = back to back multiplied mind flays and dot ticks.

Ele shaman... Enha shaman during ascendance... Assass rogues would be doing lots of damage aswell with poisons.

So many possibilities classes would be benefitting WAY too much from the trinket if they keep the 84% :P

yea exactly, there's no way they would do this.. this won't go live. lol

[Willfox]

Id just like to point out the crit, haste, mastery trinket is crit DAMAGE, not crit chance, possibly making it even more ridiculous for classes that can abuse it with UVoLS (in BGs of course)

[Flaks]

Did you see the PvP trinket bonus, 10% damage reduction for using 2 PvP trinkets.... I doubt people will use PvE trinkets now.

After seeing it at work on the PTR I can honestly say that those trinket and cloak bonuses far far FAR outweigh the 10% damage reduction.

Obviously I can't test out the trinkets/cloaks yet but if damage is any indication, MORE damage is far better than 10% damage reduction because even now on the PTR I'm getting literally (no exaggeration) 2 shot by fire mages on my warrior in defensive stance often times with dbts up. Rets and enhance are able to burn through 50% of my hp without getting into melee range in under 6 seconds. Ele, balance and hunters can effectively burn me down to half hp by the time I can get a single hamstring on them.

[Baracuda]

After seeing it at work on the PTR I can honestly say that those trinket and cloak bonuses far far FAR outweigh the 10% damage reduction.

Obviously I can't test out the trinkets/cloaks yet but if damage is any indication, MORE damage is far better than 10% damage reduction because even now on the PTR I'm getting literally (no exaggeration) 2 shot by fire mages on my warrior in defensive stance often times with dbts up. Rets and enhance are able to burn through 50% of my hp without getting into melee range in under 6 seconds. Ele, balance and hunters can effectively burn me down to half hp by the time I can get a single hamstring on them.

Shield Wall and Spell Reflection don't work afaik so warrs don't have their full potential. Even if they did hunters will still crap all over us though, our mobility is archaic.

[Glurp]

LFM 2200 RBG must have AoE cloak and trinket.

[Alanar]

In a way it's weird.. Speaking about Shadow right now, we lose 15% DR, we get 60% armor and we get 10% back thru this. But heres the funny part.. WHY DOES EVERYONE GET IT? some classes dont even need it..

[Malgru]

In a way it's weird.. Speaking about Shadow right now, we lose 15% DR, we get 60% armor and we get 10% back thru this. But heres the funny part.. WHY DOES EVERYONE GET IT? some classes dont even need it..

Having a 15% damage reduction passively is dumb. Enhance / Ele shamans have a 30% shield wall with a 25% uptime, and DK's have a 20% shield wall with a 7% uptime, so having 15% with a 100% uptime in addition to other defensives wasn't really balanced.

[Snuggli]

Having a 15% damage reduction passively is dumb. Enhance / Ele shamans have a 30% shield wall with a 25% uptime, and DK's have a 20% shield wall with a 7% uptime, so having 15% with a 100% uptime in addition to other defensives wasn't really balanced.

I hate to play devils advocate here, but 2 of the 3 class icons in your signature (which I assume are your mains), have the option to have 15% damage reduction on 100% up time.

Nearly every Hunter takes Aspect of the Iron Hawk, and if any DK starts getting hit they'll instantly swap to Blood Presence (some sit in it all game 'just in case'). It's also the same for Warriors with D-stance and Rogues with feint.

Maybe it's because damage in this game is over the top, but nearly every class has passive damage reductions. Both Boomkin and Spriests get trained into the ground with their passive damage reduction, without it they'll take even more damage, especially since both of them lack major escape mechanisms (less so for Boomkin in MoP, but definitely suffered in Wotlk/Cata).

[Korgoth]

I dont care about PVE items in pvp anymore. With the ilvl cap below LFR you never actually have to join a guild and really raid.

[Nicola]

I can guarentee you that's a typo Lul, there is no way they would give us a trinket with 2k int and 84% crit + haste + mastery for 20 seconds. Definitely a typo. Just for the sake of dreaming though, can you imagine what that would do to Affliction and Shadow dots? GG no Re. It's like 10-100 times stronger than Unerring Vision of Lei Shen.

Edit: hahahahha - what am I thinking? Forget Shadow or Affliction, think about what that would do to Chaos Bolts! 84% crit + 84% mastery? Hilarious. We can dream.

Just as a clarification on the trinket, as the numbers do look very fine.
First of all, it's not critical strike, it's critical damage. Secondly, it's +84% of your current haste and mastery. Depending on your spec, you'll either have very high mastery or very high haste, not both.

Let's take a look at Breath of the Hydra, a 7333 int proc with a 20 second duration.
If we for the sake being assume 1 int = 2 haste/mastery, you have a proc being worth 14666 of haste/mastery.

Now, how much combined haste and mastery do you have in your 522 gear? Depending on your gear, you'll probably be sitting around 14-17k, the new trinket gives you 84% of that. Suddenly it's less amazing as you though, no?

So, what about the critical damage? It's a pretty strong boost, but then again, your average caster has sub 20% crit rating in PvP and aside from that, chances are very high the proc is being halved for PvP, the proc rate is being reduced for both PvP and due the ilvl scaling and last but not least, the passive bonus is getting reduced as well due ilvl ceiling.

Taadaa, I suddenly turned a "godly" trinket into something that ain't much better than your average PvE trinket right now. On a first look the proc looks stupidly overpowered, but if you take a closer look, you see it ain't that amazing.

Edit: Merged multiple threads into this one, thread might look a bit messy

[Yvaelle]

Good points Niberion, I was too excited mis-reading the tooltip to realize it wasn't saying what I was imagining!

[Lulbalance]

Just as a clarification on the trinket, as the numbers do look very fine.
First of all, it's not critical strike, it's critical damage. Secondly, it's +84% of your current haste and mastery. Depending on your spec, you'll either have very high mastery or very high haste, not both.

Let's take a look at Breath of the Hydra, a 7333 int proc with a 20 second duration.
If we for the sake being assume 1 int = 2 haste/mastery, you have a proc being worth 14666 of haste/mastery.

Now, how much combined haste and mastery do you have in your 522 gear? Depending on your gear, you'll probably be sitting around 14-17k, the new trinket gives you 84% of that. Suddenly it's less amazing as you though, no?

So, what about the critical damage? It's a pretty strong boost, but then again, your average caster has sub 20% crit rating in PvP and aside from that, chances are very high the proc is being halved for PvP, the proc rate is being reduced for both PvP and due the ilvl scaling and last but not least, the passive bonus is getting reduced as well due ilvl ceiling.



Taadaa, I suddenly turned a "godly" trinket into something that ain't much better than your average PvE trinket right now. On a first look the proc looks stupidly overpowered, but if you take a closer look, you see it ain't that amazing.

Edit: Merged multiple threads into this one, thread might look a bit messy

except not quite ^^. there's more to it than just turning it into a base equivalent of int.

i'll use locks since we both play them.

1 - you conveniently left out the base intellect stat that's around 2k [obv will be lower with item cap i guess in the area of 1.6-1.7k int].

EDIT - it's also apparently a pretty known thing atm that Breath of Hydra [although still sick] is nerfed beyond what the tip / stat bump says in pvp. the real # apparently is somewhere around 4400 int max stack same as the agi shado pan trink.


2 - my lock has approx 11300 mastery / ~ 83% - since base mastery is 24% or something.. it's roughly a 59% increase on my main 3 dots. and that is in 5.3 gear.

84% of the total 83% is + ~ 70%.. that IS significant..just to clarify - thats like you and ~3/5s of another you putting up UA/A and Corrupt on someone. [because thats just the increase of the base dmg obv, i'm not calling 70% 3/5s :/ ]

and we dont even know the proc rate yet. also..


3 - haste @ 13.50% / ~ 5750 [and that stat matters for aff and spriests] for 84% of that is 4830 or another 11.34%..big tick difference.

these are big fkn numbers man.

4 - 84% crit damage boost which we can assume will be stacked ON TOP of the 70% flat mastery base damage boost, since that's the multiplier for crit damage. insinuating that somehow crit damage boost of 84% is somehow inferior to crit chance boost of 84% is mis-leading..it's pretty much just as nasty.

if you UA with that proc and it gets dispelled with a haunt up for example..it's gonna crit and that is no bueno for a healer.


imo, you're grossly underestimating this trink. it's not god mode and granted we were alittle crazy about it at first.. but it is waaayyy better than the pvp proc trink even with the 10% reduc.


EDIT - last point just to put it into perspective: Dark Soul for aff increases your haste by 30%...that's a 2 min offensive cd.. 30%.



^ was just for dot classes. for burst classes it's more messy.

even if you were right and it turns out to be just as good as what we have now or a little better, since your original argument was:

Did you see the PvP trinket bonus, 10% damage reduction for using 2 PvP trinkets.... I doubt people will use PvE trinkets now.

i still can't get on board with it, and i def. can't with a human toon. pve trinks are closer now with the reduction for non-human classes.. not even close for humans that can get their hands on 2 pve's.

[Nicola]

@lul: Did you also read the line where I said that the proc is very likely to get halved (at least) and the proc rate being reduced due the ilvl ceiling and against players?
Blizzard screwed up with trinkets in 4.3, again in 5.2, with trinkets even stronger coming, you can be damn sure they'll do anything they can to prevent the same thing from happening again.

[Lulbalance]

@lul: Did you also read the line where I said that the proc is very likely to get halved and the proc rate being reduced due the ilvl ceiling and against players?

is saw but 'likely' isnt 'is'.. obv it could be nerfed in a bunch of other ways too but right now as it is from what we actually know and can reason; it would be a beast. pretty much all i was getting at.

hey i hope you're right! that's why i'm b*tching about it. lol

[Korgoth]

Whats the worst case scenario? You do some LFR and get an item with an interesting proc for PVP. The way some people are reacting to this makes me think they believe its still Wrath and you have to go join a Heroic Raiding guild to get your legendary.

[Lulbalance]

Whats the worst case scenario? You do some LFR and get an item with an interesting proc for PVP. The way some people are reacting to this makes me think they believe its still Wrath and you have to go join a Heroic Raiding guild to get your legendary.

i dont like gimmick trinks in arena and the game is already stupid enough damage wise, really bugs me this is still going on..

personally, that's why you see me make big posts on this stuff when i don't normally make them on much else.

[Nicola]

Just as a quick heads up, the % based procs and passives do scale with ilvl, meaning you won't see those ridiculous 84% stat increases or 39% cooldown reduction in PvP.
Some people in the lock section figured out the 84% proc is reduced to 36% for ilvl 463 gear, so expect at least a ~20% drop on ilvl 522 gear (67%, 31%)

[Tyrean]

Where are you guys seeing 84%? Everywhere I look it is 14% and it seems to be a flat modifier. 14% extra crit healing/damage, 14% extra mastery, and 14% extra haste. Seems not too unreasonable to me.

Chaos bolt would be the obvious problem spell because it scales with mastery and the crit percentage change is a flat buff since it always crits. Fully geared destro locks have something like 9200 mastery, which gives them 46% mastery so like 200 mastery for 1% increase in damage. Also will have like 12% crit. Dark Soul increases crit by 30% which is a flat 30% damage increase. The mastery increase is roughly 6.5% damage increase on chaos bolt. He has like 22k spell power.

So right now it would hit for something like this:
( ( 2.25 * 24000 ) + 2164 ) * 2 * 1.03 * 1.05 * 1.43 * 1.70 * 1.33 *.35 = 138575 self buffed on a target with no base damage reduction or CDs up.
Spell power * crit * crit meta * curse 5% * crit * mastery * pvp power * resilience

The trinket would change that too
56614*2.28*1.03*1.05*1.43*1.77*1.33*.35 = 164480 self buffed yada yada. So it is like a 19% increase on chaos bolt. Wow, that is actually pretty strong. God help us if it is actually 84%. Let's look at that number, lol.

56614*3.68*1.03*1.05*1.43*2.08*1.33*.35 = 311973. LOL. That is assuming the increases crit damage is mutiplicative which may not be the case. Let's assume the increases crit damage part is just additive.

56614*2.14*1.03*1.05*1.43*1.77*1.33*.35 = 154380 or a 11% increase.
with trinket at 84%
56614*2.84*1.03*1.05*1.43*2.08*1.33*.35 = 240761.

I just don't see it being 84%. If it is you will be able to nearly one shot people with chaos bolt ALL THE TIME. 14% seems more reasonable. I did not even figure into the above other buffs from teammates (mastery/crit) or self buff talents like sac. I just don't see how you can go from a 140k hit on live to a 240k hit by equipping a trinket. It will change even more than that because of the item level boost on gear.

Has to be nerfed into oblivion for pvp, it just has to.