25 man little things do help.

[Boottybounce]

I realize the 'every little thing helps' thing, But in a twenty five man raid would say, the wrong enchant on a dps ultimately kill or wipe a boss? I know in 10 man it's more crucial, But there are some people who would believe otherwise. I think it would be stalling our progression ultimately. Any evaluation on this?

[Koji2k11]

it's not any different in 25m heroic progression every DPS counts

[Boottybounce]

it's not any different in 25m heroic progression every DPS counts

It's actually not heroic, It's just normal, we've recently started up and alot of us have never done 25 man and some never raided (ones with wrong enchants, obv.)
Do you think that changes anything?

[Henako]

Obviously every little bit helps, but on the whole, player skill will account for far more than that one lazy fucker with no boot enchant.

[Deleted]

It's actually not heroic, It's just normal, we've recently started up and alot of us have never done 25 man and some never raided (ones with wrong enchants, obv.)
Do you think that changes anything?

That's the point, it changes nothing...
You still need to come to raid FULLY prepared.
And from my experience - that's exactly the attitude you need to change in fresh PvE guild(or fresh 25man guild).
Come fully prepared, focus - and you get you normals down faster than you think.

[Twansition]

I personally wouldn't raid with people not willing to make the effort, but you need to look at what is wiping you.

Is the tank dying? Is he not enchanted?

Are you hitting enrages? Are adds not dying on time? Are the DPS not enchanted?

Are healers keeping up? Are the healers enchanted?

While you might have enough DPS or whatnot, more always makes things easier.

[Boottybounce]

It really bugs me too, because I'm in no authority of telling people what to do, and what I hear these few who don't do stuff right are real rude and me recently joining the guild I don't feel right about telling them oh 'you're wrong fix it.' and I've been told I do come off rude sometimes by people. Also I don't really want to feel like a snitch. >.<

[Rucati]

One person not having an enchant isn't the difference between a kill or a wipe in any difficulty. It simply isn't. If you wipe because your Warrior did 100k less damage than he would normally do then it's because your group did something wrong mechanically. Even if you hit the enrage timer you're probably doing something wrong where an extra 5k DPS isn't going to matter.

At the end of the day DPS is less important than mechanics, someone doing the fight wrong is a problem in 10/25 normal or heroic, someone doing slightly less DPS really isn't.

[Boottybounce]

I personally wouldn't raid with people not willing to make the effort, but you need to look at what is wiping you.

Is the tank dying? Is he not enchanted?

Are you hitting enrages? Are adds not dying on time? Are the DPS not enchanted?

Are healers keeping up? Are the healers enchanted?

While you might have enough DPS or whatnot, more always makes things easier.

Right now I feel like it's just mechanics we need to get through, but I really don't want this to stop us later on, I'm not exactly sure what I'm trying to get out of this thread. >.< basically we have geared people (520+) doing less DPS than I in the 500s.

[Seriss]

Sure you can kill bosses if people have missing or wrong enchants, gems, aren't hitcapped, etc. One bad egg in a basket of 25 should be barely noticeable if the rest of them manage to cover it up.

IMHO, if a character isn't kept in shape (correctly gemmed, reforged, enchanted, etc.), that's just a symptom of an underlying problem. The player of that char doesn't really care about their performance in the raid. In my experience, people who slack at caring about the state their character is in, often also slack about what they do in the raid, be it healing, dpsing or tanking. It's the guys who, when confronted, will say something like "I play the way I want to play; I play for fun, it's not a job."

If you're in a guild in which this is acceptable behaviour - and casual guilds generally don't put that much emphasis on progression - then you'll have to accept it and be quiet about it. You chose to play with those people. So you have to suck it up when someone doesn't do a perfect job about their character. If having fun in the raid and joking around are emphasized more than the goal of clearing a raid while it's current (even if it's only normal mode - normal modes aren't a walk in the park for most people nowadays, as they're quite a bit more difficult than they used to be), you'll have to accept it. If the raid leader doesn't care, you as a regular member don't have a say in the matter.

If you're not happy in a more social and casual guild as you seem to be in, you need to find a guild whose goals more closely mirror yours.

That's probably one of the main problems 25s are facing today: Getting 25+ players together that are at about the same skill level and have about the same goals. It's no good to have some 15 acceptable-good players and then throw 7 overly skilled hardcores together with 9 newbies into the mix. Expectations are bound to clash.

[Ninotchka]

How wrong is 'wrong'? Is it something like a mage putting the strength enchant on his legs, or is it something like a mage putting a cheap haste enchant on his bracers rather than the more expensive int enchant?

If it's something obviously Wrong, speaking up is a good thing. It may be part of an inside joke you're not yet privy to. But if it's something like using a money-saver, well, making money in WoW is simple but there always seem to be people who just can't keep more than 100g in the bank. If you're not willing to pony up the gold for the correct enchant then keep your mouth shut.

And if he has a crap enchant on a piece of crap gear, well, that may be a superstitious offering to the gods of RNG, or a refusal to waste money on something he hopes to upgrade Real Soon Now.

But if he just doesn't know any better and gets mad when this sort of thing is pointed out, that's a sign of possible deeper dysfunction. Keep an eye on him and plan your escape route just in case.

[fangless]

One person not having an enchant isn't the difference between a kill or a wipe in any difficulty. It simply isn't. If you wipe because your Warrior did 100k less damage than he would normally do then it's because your group did something wrong mechanically. Even if you hit the enrage timer you're probably doing something wrong where an extra 5k DPS isn't going to matter.

At the end of the day DPS is less important than mechanics, someone doing the fight wrong is a problem in 10/25 normal or heroic, someone doing slightly less DPS really isn't.

Basically this. Things like 25 more stats on a food buff won't save your raid, even if the whole raid wasn't using it. If you fail so close where it would, then your raid is lacking the precision to get through the fight correctly.

2 people left alive kills are neat and all, but if you can get that close, you're probably within a few pulls of a legit kill :P

[Auloria]

If a person has never raided before, and you're going to get nit picky about every thing they do wrong, all you are going to do is turn them off from raiding.

Give them time to get addicted to the experience first. They will eventually want to improve themselves on their own.

[Harekrsna]

In reality it doesn't matter [much], but the thing that a raid leader or officer should be troubled by is the lack of regard and respect that someone who shows up with the wrong enchants, gems, or no enchants or gems in their gear has.

If someone isn't trying to min-max at least to the basic levels (proper rotation, right gems, reforging, enchants, consumables) then they are probably not putting much effort into looking into the fights, playing to their best ability on the encounter, or really have much desire to see the content cleared. That isn't someone you want around in your raid if you have any focus on progression (even if you aren't hardcore to the point of removing bad players, people should at least show that they want to be there by meeting a minimum requirement).

It is the raid leader or GM/Officer that sets the expectations and making those expectations known and enforcing them is the best way to go about this, there's no right answer to how much effort needs to be put in to be raiding "right" but the raid itself decides where it draws the line; from showing up on-time, to min-maxing your character in every possible way.

Another thing to keep in mind is recruitment situation. When I first started the guild I raid lead today (or begin raid leading it I should say) the expectations were lower because I could only expect so much, and I couldn't recruit to replace people who didn't meet what my personal expectations were. As time has gone on my expectations have gone up and I have the ability to remove players who don't meet them and replace them with those who will.

A great example is back when I started some of our raiders didn't even have capped professions, and many of them had 1 or 2 gathering professions. At the time this was acceptable not because it was what I felt was fine, but because the alternative is that I simply don't have a 10th player if I remove them (or even worse I only have like 6). Over time I convinced more of them to get professions that were better suited to raiding like engineering, and those that didn't change their professions or cap them eventually showed their flaws in other areas as well and I worked to replace them over time.

Its a process of elimination, if you cut them all out at once you'll be left with nothing, but if you work at it slowly you can rebuild over it and become stronger.

[Deleted]

A wrong enchant isn't a litle thing. When I started to raid I got booted out of the raid when I wasn't properly enchanted, I understood why and deserved it.

Everyone needs to carry their own weight.

[Eranthe]

The wrong enchant on an item on 1 player is pretty much never going to make the difference on any boss. But if you have the wrong enchant, why do I have to spend gold getting the right enchant? If it's okay for you, it's okay for me too, and pretty soon you have 6 people with the wrong enchant. Then you might hit an enrage timer.

Min/maxing makes a difference for every player, but it's not a huge deal until it's spread across 25 people. Then the cumulative difference is much larger.

[Daedelus]

It really bugs me too, because I'm in no authority of telling people what to do, and what I hear these few who don't do stuff right are real rude and me recently joining the guild I don't feel right about telling them oh 'you're wrong fix it.' and I've been told I do come off rude sometimes by people. Also I don't really want to feel like a snitch. >.<

There are polite and clever ways of doing it.

For example, point out that if you have, say, 10 casters in the raid, and none of them are using flasks, that's at least 10,000 spellpower you're missing overall.
If every caster is missing one red int gem, that's 1600 spellpower.

Those are just daft examples, the point being that one person missing the odd enchant or flask/food buff won't make any real difference but once several people are doing the same it soon adds up. It also instills a "well if he's not doing it then why should I?" attitude.