Thread: Dangers of F2P

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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakshamash View Post
    I'm too poor to play F2P games, so I stick with P2P.
    Hello completely nonsensical statement.

    Out of the dozens of F2P games I play, I've played at least half of them while paying nothing, or as little as 20 dollars total.

    What are these F2P games requiring you to pay more than $15 a month? The ones I can think of that sell/restrict content generally provide all said content as part of the normal subscription.

    So...I'm curious as to what these F2P games that force you to pay $15 or more a month. Last I checked, I'm never actually forced to pay anything. But hey, that's just me. I might just be strange or something.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    Hello completely nonsensical statement.

    Out of the dozens of F2P games I play, I've played at least half of them while paying nothing, or as little as 20 dollars total.

    What are these F2P games requiring you to pay more than $15 a month? The ones I can think of that sell/restrict content generally provide all said content as part of the normal subscription.

    So...I'm curious as to what these F2P games that force you to pay $15 or more a month. Last I checked, I'm never actually forced to pay anything. But hey, that's just me. I might just be strange or something.
    Actually, it isn't completely nonsensical, because a lot of studies have shown that people spend more money on aggregate in F2P games than they do in subscription games.

    The fact that your data sample of 1 indicates otherwise isn't really relevant.

    You are correct that nobody is forcing you to pay anything - obviously, it is just a game. However, the vast majority of people do, and F2P games are very skillfully designed to make it (at the very least) strongly compelling to be spending significant money on them.

  3. #83
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    F2P works when its cosmetics that you can buy. There is no real pain that is removed there.

    Most F2P beyond that model I have found disgusting and will never play.

    EA and other games do this same thing with microtransactions.

    Last edited by Collegeguy; 2013-07-02 at 07:57 AM.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by KenNorth View Post
    Actually, it isn't completely nonsensical, because a lot of studies have shown that people spend more money on aggregate in F2P games than they do in subscription games.
    That's entirely optional. Nobody ever forces you to spend a penny in F2P. You can play F2P games for free all you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenNorth View Post
    The fact that your data sample of 1 indicates otherwise isn't really relevant.
    So another data sample of 1 indicates something different is more relevant?

    Quote Originally Posted by KenNorth View Post
    You are correct that nobody is forcing you to pay anything - obviously, it is just a game. However, the vast majority of people do, and F2P games are very skillfully designed to make it (at the very least) strongly compelling to be spending significant money on them.
    So why is the model vilified when it's the people who have little self control that are the issue? I've never overspent on a F2P game because I have an established gaming budget every month an I make sure I never go over it. Most months I never even come near the established maximum.

    Why is it the business models fault that people overspend? It allows people to spend as much as they want, so if they spend too much, that's their damn fault, not the games.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by KenNorth View Post
    Actually, it isn't completely nonsensical, because a lot of studies have shown that people spend more money on aggregate in F2P games than they do in subscription games.

    The fact that your data sample of 1 indicates otherwise isn't really relevant.

    You are correct that nobody is forcing you to pay anything - obviously, it is just a game. However, the vast majority of people do, and F2P games are very skillfully designed to make it (at the very least) strongly compelling to be spending significant money on them.
    Thank you very much!

    No matter how FREE F2P game can be, but in the end if you want fun (I play games for fun, sorry) you must pay if you want to have fun. Been there, done that, played numerous "F2P" games, they are free, I admit, but fun costs.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakshamash View Post
    No matter how FREE F2P game can be, but in the end if you want fun (I play games for fun, sorry) you must pay if you want to have fun.
    Strange, most of the F2P games I've played/still play and had "fun" while playing, I either pay(ed) nothing or make only occasional purchases. I guess I must be doing it wrong or something : (

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    That's entirely optional. Nobody ever forces you to spend a penny in F2P. You can play F2P games for free all you want.
    True. Except, I have life and my day isn't 36 hours long and I don't really find myself spending whole day at computer for days/weeks/months to achieve something, that someone who pays gets it in 2 minutes. In some games, yes, it's possible, but I didn't find another way, except hacking and exploiting.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakshamash View Post
    True. Except, I have life and my day isn't 36 hours long and I don't really find myself spending whole day at computer for days/weeks/months to achieve something, that someone who pays gets it in 2 minutes. In some games, yes, it's possible, but I didn't find another way, except hacking and exploiting.
    Curious, which games?

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Totori View Post
    Curious, which games?
    Yeah, I'm curious too. Because I split my time up between most of the F2P games I play pretty unevenly, so I'll play them in bursts or only for the odd hour every here and there. Never found anything that straight lets me buy my way through something the way you describe, nor anything that I felt was unnecessarily prohibitive.

    Mind though: I'm not talking about some of the shittier F2P games like Perfect World International/Aika etc. that put a heavy premium on grind because they're designed with the oldschool early/mid 2000's F2P model in mind, are designed on low budgets, and are imported from Korea/China. I'm talking about Western games like LOTRO, DCUO, SWTOR, Rift, etc.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Totori View Post
    Curious, which games?
    PWI, Forsaken World (not sure about other PWE games) and their new Neverwinter; Allods, Runes of Magic, Vindictus, C9, Dragon Nest, some of Aeria craps... If I remember more, I'll post.

    ---------- Post added 2013-07-02 at 10:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    I'm talking about Western games like LOTRO, DCUO, SWTOR, Rift, etc.
    Sorry, those were designed as P2P games, however any of those except Rift (don't know about DCUO and their limitation, played that game long ago), I consider like free trial.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakshamash View Post
    PWI, Forsaken World (not sure about other PWE games) and their new Neverwinter; Allods, Runes of Magic, Vindictus, C9, Dragon Nest, some of Aeria craps... If I remember more, I'll post.
    Perfect World Entertainments games are almost universally shit, with the games coming from Cryptic (who they own) being the exception. The cash shops aren't great, but you can still almost entirely ignore them. I spent 5 bucks on Champions Online to unlock some back slots but beyond that nothing on Neverwinter/Star Trek Online, and have had a ton of fun playing both.

    Allods has a terrible model and really isn't that great of a game. Not much to be expected from a Russian studio with a low budget working on a WoW clone.

    RoM is mostly the same thing as Allods, though I believe that Runewalker is Thai.

    Vindictus I'm actually curious as to what you need to spend money on. I've dropped some cash on under armor (underwear) and a new haircut, but nothing more, and have spent tons of time having a blast in the game.

    C9...yeah...Webzen...they don't really make good games.

    Can't speak to Dragon Next because it's the one game on your list I've mostly avoided due to a lack of interest.

    Aeria makes terrible games on the whole. They're one of the Korean import publishers.

    So you've pretty much listed a series of non-Western games (excluding Neverwinter, which is made by a Western developer but published by a Chinese publisher with a history of fucking up cash shops) and summarily ignored a whole host of Western games with great business models, and even some Korean games (Aion, Lineage 2) with great business models as well.

    Redit: I highly recommend checking out Rift, Tera, GW2/TSW (both B2P, so not super relevant), Lord of the Rings Online, Star Trek Online, DC Universe Online, Vanguard, Aion, and Path of Exile if you want to see some more "modern" Western F2P games with solid business models.
    Last edited by Edge-; 2013-07-02 at 08:45 AM.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    So you've pretty much listed a series of non-Western games (excluding Neverwinter, which is made by a Western developer but published by a Chinese publisher with a history of fucking up cash shops) and summarily ignored a whole host of Western games with great business models, and even some Korean games (Aion, Lineage 2) with great business models as well.
    Usually that business model have hidden cost. I exclude Rift, cause I didn't find anything that will ever force me to spend a penny, but we'll see that after, too perfect to be true. And with sub or not, game is not appeal to me. Though, I liked Rift 1.x more than SL (daily grind/quest/rep, no ty) and been subbed for maybe 5-6 months. Have in mind, that all those western, non-chinese games and some Korean were designed with P2P model, but failed for many reasons to keep sub. But, no matter how u can split games between east/west, they have F2P right after their title. Shitty or not, some those games, single, made more money than Rift/Swtor/DCUO/LOTRO together. So, as businessman, I'd call that succsessful business model.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakshamash View Post
    Thank you very much!

    No matter how FREE F2P game can be, but in the end if you want fun (I play games for fun, sorry) you must pay if you want to have fun. Been there, done that, played numerous "F2P" games, they are free, I admit, but fun costs.
    I have having fun in Rift have I have not spent a dime....so that there proves you wrong. There is f2p models that do work out really well and rift is one of them.

    Also in the US Aion is 100% free and Terra is F2p in the same way rift is as well. Also TSW is F2p and only thing you pay for "if u want" is some DLC that comes out.
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  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    I have having fun in Rift have I have not spent a dime....so that there proves you wrong. There is f2p models that do work out really well and rift is one of them.

    Also in the US Aion is 100% free and Terra is F2p in the same way rift is as well. Also TSW is F2p and only thing you pay for "if u want" is some DLC that comes out.
    Read my post above. Also, do you play games cause they are free? I play them cause I want fun and to spend my extra time (and money?). No matter if they're free or not, as long as I like game. I played Aion on release, was subbed. Same with Rift. Tera - 2 years waited for game, finally got into beta - and was pretty dissapointed. Didn't played TSW, but played GW2. Something happend that couldn't me hold more than 3-6 months in game. If I didn't have fun before, will I have now, cause... those games... are free?

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakshamash View Post
    Read my post above. Also, do you play games cause they are free? I play them cause I want fun and to spend my extra time (and money?). No matter if they're free or not, as long as I like game. I played Aion on release, was subbed. Same with Rift. Tera - 2 years waited for game, finally got into beta - and was pretty dissapointed. Didn't played TSW, but played GW2. Something happend that couldn't me hold more than 3-6 months in game. If I didn't have fun before, will I have now, cause... those games... are free?
    I play "MMO's" that are free because there has not been a MMO that to me is worth shelling out 15$ a month.

    Why pay 15$ a month when I can play something that has equal to more content then a P2p mmo or why pay 15$ a month when I can drop 60$ once and pop in and out anytime I want. Even tho I mite have fun in a game I still want to get my moneys worth.

    For Example I love soloing in World of Warcraft and that is fun to me but is not worth 15$ a month when I don't care to do the other 99.9% of content in the game.

    If I am playing a f2p MMO "for Example Rift" and sometime down the line they may release a mount I like I may pay for it but that is my choice to decide to drop 15$ for that mount maybe once a year and if I decide not to I can still play the whole game for free. In games like WOW I am forced to pay 15$ a month if I even want to play the game then another 20$-25$ if I like a mount out of the cash shop.

    Another Example Elder Scrolls Online: If it comes out as B2p/F2p Ill jump on it but if it has a sub chose I won't even give it a look because as I said I personally don't see MMO's being worth 15$ a month when I could spend that 15$ somewhere else to have just as much fun if not more.
    Last edited by Jtbrig7390; 2013-07-02 at 09:24 AM.
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  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by KenNorth View Post
    You are correct that nobody is forcing you to pay anything - obviously, it is just a game. However, the vast majority of people do, and F2P games are very skillfully designed to make it (at the very least) strongly compelling to be spending significant money on them.
    That's a good thing.

    If people have a choice between grinding something and buying it, people are going to have to lean toward buying it in order for the game to make money.
    If people lack the self control, that's their own fault. We shouldn't coddle them and protect them from making bad decisions.
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  17. #97
    I'm playing Rift free currently. Much of what you can buy is cosmetic, stuff that doesn't affect your game play(costumes, special mounts, minipets, dimension stuff). You can also buy using credits things you can buy with in game currency-additional specs, bags, but honestly, that stuff isn't expensive in game anyways, so if you want to buy a bag it's trivially easy to do so.

    And even if you, for whatever reason, don't want to spend your in game funds and would rather make a cash purchase, you won't be out a ton. $5 gets you like, 1100 credits or something like that. An additional spec for your class costs something like, 25 credits, buying a bag is like 9 credits, the lvl 1 mounts are like 9 credits and the lvl 25 ones are like 36, so basically, with $5 you can get your toon full bags, several specs, each tier of mounts and still have leftover credits for your next toon. And as I said, none of those is remotely close to being necessary to get with cash, with my first toon just playing to lvl 15 I had bought a mount, second spec, had bags for each slot, and still had in game currency to spend...

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    You are forced to grind the ingame currency if you don't give them $$$$ because there is no other way to gain the content and even then its only a pass to do it for a few days.

    Its a illusion of choice and to me ways not worth it when I can get all or dam near cost to all content in other mmo's for free perfect example is rift.
    Rift has a better model, that does not mean that the choice between grinding and paying in swtor is an illusion. I grinded and one my friends payed. We both have, for the most part, unlocked accounts. That's not an illusion.
    Last edited by Bardarian; 2013-07-02 at 09:40 AM.
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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Bardarian View Post
    Rift has a better model, that does not mean that the choice between grinding and paying in swtor is an illusion. I grinded and one my friends payed. We both have, for the most part, unlocked accounts. That's not an illusion.
    Ok but feel free to correct me if I am wrong but on the f2p account you must pay the 80k each week for the pass's right???? so yes you are forced to grind to play that content and since raid's/Pvp make up 2/3 of the endgame content you are forced to ether grind and pay the fee or not play at all or the 3rd option is to sub like they want you to do.

    its a illusion that you are playing all content for free when your not. You are play a extended trail and if you want more then that you must grind your face off or give them 15$ a month.
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  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    Perfect World Entertainments games are almost universally shit, with the games coming from Cryptic (who they own) being the exception. The cash shops aren't great, but you can still almost entirely ignore them. I spent 5 bucks on Champions Online to unlock some back slots but beyond that nothing on Neverwinter/Star Trek Online, and have had a ton of fun playing both.
    I have to stop you here.
    Neverwinter has a really shit F2P model and had even more retarded ideas about the game.

    The game was in "open beta" up till what? 2 weeks ago? even less. Even if it was still BETA, they had micro-transactions in it.
    People got banned for "abusing exploits" even tho many of them were reported ever since the closed beta. I was banned because I was trying to find bugs and report them.
    Even tho the game was in beta, it was 10 euros for a talent tree respec. I had bad talents playing DC so I couldn't get into any group. I picked up bad talents because I wanted to test them and make sure everything was working fine for release. I wasn't able to do that for free and I just got a build that seemed good without actually trying to find out if they work or not because I couldn't afford it.
    Zen for AD exchange? Not even close to possible. Zen was 550-600 AD each when I respecced. 600x550=330.000 AD... with a limit of 16k AD/day (that's what I had at that time for a limit) means 21 days reaching the cap. And it was kind of impossible to reach it and even doing all the dailies took way too long, let's say around 6-7 hours each day for more than 1 month... just to afford a respec.
    Most of the content in Neverwinter is locked behind real money. If YOU don't have to pay, doesn't mean someone else doesn't. The Zen exchange is there but with Zen bought by other people for real money. Runes, profession materials, wards, etc, everything useful was gated behind real money. Maybe not YOUR real money but someone had to pay. Not really F2P in my opinion.

    Currency for it was going at insane prices tho so I can't complain, I got more out of it than I invested, much more but I still look at it from a normal person's pov.

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