Why do lesser skilled players feel entitled to see content?

[anaxie]

well then tell me your brilliant solution. because the lfr audience isn't going back to your precious guilds, ever. there isn't even the slightest chance of going back to schedules and guild rules once you get something like LFR. if the problem is not convenience but difficulty, blizzard should explore new ways for making a matchmaking system for challenging content.

Really? LFR shaman friends and family joins us and starts doing alt raids. Last 6 months or so joined main raids and is now one of the best Enhance shamans in the entire world. LFR players won't play the game? Please... The only thing LFR does is provide 0 tools to learn about organized group play. In TBC 5 mans facilitated learning to work as a group. Currently you need to be doing NORMAL raiding to even get that understanding of the game.

But fuck keep LFR. It won't stop me from getting biigger and better raids which are a direct result of LFR. No coincidence MoP is the greatest expansion for end tier heroic raiding in the history of the game if org doesn't flop <pretty unlikely>. Only player experience being diluted are the new players. That is very unfortunate for them. I would take the TBC 5 man experience and only Kara over the current LFR game any day as a new player who cannot commit to raid times.

[Raelbo]

I know I'm not wrong, is the thing.

And I know you ARE wrong. Because I am smarter than you. It's that simple! (see what I did there?)

The game will be over in less than 2 tears with you carebears steering the ship.

Try looking up correlation vs causation. Yes, WoW is shrinking. Possibly even dying (although I suspect it will be in decline for many more years before it finally kicks the proverbial bucket). Yes, this is happening during the age of LFR.

But simply jumping to the conclusion that LFR is the cause is foolish. What about the possiblity that the declining subs in WoW were the reason LFR was created in the first place?

It is quite possible that without LFR, WoW would be dead already. Of course we can never know what would have happened had different choices been made. We can only guess based on what we do know. Personally I am going with those who can support their arguments with sound logic and reason that stands up to scrutiny rather than the special snowflake who simply "knows" he is not wrong....

[Aquamonkey]

You know as well as I do that those blue posts are the bulk of what they've said. To me they make it pretty clear the vast majority of LFR players aren't coming out of the normal/heroic mode raiding pool.

Obviously you disagree

I don't disagree. Both GC's posts say exactly that. The majority of LFRers are not coming out of the raiding pool.

Take the worst-case scenario with conservative estimates:
People like to throw around that only 2% of all WoW players are raiders. Let's say it's 10%, including anyone who has ever stepped foot in normal. Let's say 30% of all WoW players do LFR. Even if every raider quit and joined LFR, they would only account for 33% of the LFR population. LFR-only players not coming from the raiding pool would still be in the vast majority.

GC's statements would still be true no matter how many traditional raiders left for LFR. What I'm saying is that you can't determine how big of a dent LFR is making on traditional raiding based on those statements alone. It could be small, it could be large.

[Jainzar]

Normal mode this expansion is pretty close to heroic.

No, it is not. Not even close.

If you don't understand why there is no new blood, well, I can start by telling you it's not because of LFR.

Of course not exclusively, but it does play a huge part. If it wasn't for LFR, there would be a lot more people into normal mode and heroic mode raiding.

[Deleted]

LFR is anti-social in it's basic principles. Normal and Heroic is the opposite, it's quite social and you get to know great ppl..

you also get to meet some right arseholes. lets not pretend that raiding & raiders is all sweetness & light.

[Aquamonkey]

Do you /w players in LFR who are topping meters and wearing nice gear if they want to join your guild? Similarly, if they're on a crap geared alt, how do you know if they've got a decent main to recruit?

I've seen people try to recruit out of LFD.

[razorfire]

I think the thing that gets me the most about this recent crop of wannabe hardcore raiders bashing LFR and everything, is the insulting tone of language. "Lesser players", "scrubs", "baddies" and the like. You can make a point without resorting to hurling insults at other people, but this always seems to be lost and IMO indicates the type of person who doesn't really want a discussion, they want to just be a rude douchebag to other people.

agreed, I honestly don't care what difficulty the content you do is, the issue I have is when people start demanding everything be for them and them alone and blames the problems in content on anyone not doing the same thing as them. "casual" and "hardcore" are really simple labels placed up to separate people in their own minds so that someone can feel superior or have a "they're the enemy" mentality...I've already said it but IT'S A GAME! PLAY TO HAVE FUN NOT TO HATE OTHER PLAYERS!

[barackohmama]

Purely my opinion here but why would anyone want forced socialisation? Just from my perspective but I'm a teacher, I don't want to socialise with high school age kids, and I'm quite sure they don't want to socialise with me either (can you imagine the horror in finding out the person you've just been forced to socialise with was your school teacher?). That doesn't mean the game isn't social for me, but there's no need to force people to interact on a personal level who don't really want to or need to.

Then you should know why so many hate school. You're in a group with ppl that doesnt want to know you, just like LFR.

[Deleted]

Really? LFR shaman friends and family joins us and starts doing alt raids. Last 6 months or so joined main raids and is now one of the best Enhance shamans in the entire world. LFR players won't play the game? Please... The only thing LFR does is provide 0 tools to learn about organized group play. In TBC 5 mans facilitated learning to work as a group. Currently you need to be doing NORMAL raiding to even get that understanding of the game.

But fuck keep LFR. It won't stop me from getting biigger and better raids which are a direct result of LFR. No coincidence MoP is the greatest expansion for end tier heroic raiding in the history of the game if org doesn't flop <pretty unlikely>. Only player experience being diluted are the new players. That is very unfortunate for them. I would take the TBC 5 man experience and only Kara over the current LFR game any day as a new player who cannot commit to raid times.

a small minority chooses to experience organized raiding, over many more that want to stay the hell out of it.
btw i'm not asking for heroic raids to be removed, in my opinion if that's your favourite playstyle its fine. problem is that heroic raiders want to take away the most important feature in the whole game, while its actually the only one that keeps the majority of the playerbase playing the game.
the raider lifestyle is not for everyone, actually its only for very few people. its not sustainable for the average gamer, but not because of the difficulty... because of the unreasonable RL/social requirements.

[Normie]

Only player experience being diluted are the new players. That is very unfortunate for them. I would take the TBC 5 man experience and only Kara over the current LFR game any day as a new player who cannot commit to raid times.

You realize what you're saying is "I know you enjoy what you're doing but if you did it my way you would enjoy it so much more."

You know how often that's actually true?

You know how often that's actually just selfish, patronizing bullshit?

[Jessicka]

No, it is not. Not even close.

Of course not exclusively, but it does play a huge part. If it wasn't for LFR, there would be a lot more people into normal mode and heroic mode raiding.

Would there? Or would they have quit the game altogether when they roadblocked at Elegon/Garalon/Horridon? I know more players who did the latter than 'dropped down' to LFR.

[Deleted]

I don't think lesser skilled/casual/'scrubs'/'bads'/non-raiders feel entitled to see anything. I see people like the OP are determined to lock them out of content, though.

[anaxie]

Do you /w players in LFR who are topping meters and wearing nice gear if they want to join your guild? Similarly, if they're on a crap geared alt, how do you know if they've got a decent main to recruit?

I've complimented plenty of players. I've similarly shittalked rets of my spec who are doing less dps then I was doing back in Firelands. Depends on the mood.

Trust me a shit 470 alt of a good player is going to still beat 95% of the players in LFR. It's not that hard to spot.

[DechCJC]

This guy started on the bottom and now he is here. Complaining on a forum. Isn't the higher ilvl gear enough? This is about the 1000th post about this topic, a topic that has been going on for years. First it was in Naxx when the heroics were to easy. Then Cataclysm when LFR popped up, flex raiding, so on and so forth. Why make this topic now?

I don't think any of these "lesser skilled" players feel entitled to see it. It was Blizzard's choice to add it and guess what. They added it. So deal with it.

It's not about higher ilvl, it's about having an incentive to raid - Which a lot of the time is just seeing the content, but if you're even being forced to gear up through the current raid tier via LFR - You will have seen the content multiple times before you get to it. If you're in an average raiding guild, you will clear it on normal mode before it gets properly hard in like, less than a month. There's no incentive to continue raiding and quite frankly, i'm getting extremely bored with it because of this reason. I don't give a fuck that i'll be on Lei Shen hc in a few weeks, why? Cause I've killed him like 40 times already.

And no, i'm not going to 'deal with it' - Perhaps one day whenever there's enough QQ, they'll revert this stupid change and just keep flexi raid or something, I personally think flexi raid has MUCH more potential for casuals than LFR - But they NEED to restrict certain wings of the raids, you need to have the incentive to step it up a level.

If you can level to 90, you can raid normal modes. The OP isn't trying to lock anyone out of content, he's trying to give them the incentive to actually raid PROPERLY. LFR isn't raiding, I can literally go afk as a healer and make some tea, come back and go "oh look, I won a random fucking epic and no runestone, brilliant". If you can see the content first hand, there's no desire to do anything more difficult - This RUINS the raid feeling for actual raiders because challenge alone isn't why we want to raid, you really have to experience setting your eyes on a boss not many players have seen for the first time to understand it. Ra-Den was a cool idea, but I don't think it was enough personally (especially considering how hard he is to get to) - Not many raiders will get to see him at all, which is cool, but it means that the rest of the raid is still boring as absolute fuck.

It's not about better gear, or challenge, it's about the incentive to do better so that you can see new content. It's not there.

[anaxie]

I don't think lesser skilled/casual/'scrubs'/'bads'/non-raiders feel entitled to see anything. I see people like the OP determined to lock them out of content, though.

This thread says otherwise unless you are blind. People certainly do feel entitled and they are quite proud of it.

[Jessicka]

I've complimented plenty of players. I've similarly shittalked rets of my spec who are doing less dps then I was doing back in Firelands. Depends on the mood.

Trust me a shit 470 alt of a good player is going to still beat 95% of the players in LFR. It's not that hard to spot.

Complimented? How about actively recruited. That's what I asked.

[Deleted]

Not sure where the entitled mentality came from in WoW but it does seem to be a WoW exclusive thing.

Imagine sending a scathing e-mail to From Software with the same entitled mindset complaining that you can't beat a boss on Dark Souls and that you paid the same as everyone else for your copy of the game so they should do something about it! They'd be patching the game right away i'm sure...

[Raelbo]

Whatever blue posts there were, if they say that LFR isn't causing raiders to quit raiding, then they are simply lieing. People do lie...

People also tell the truth.

Honestly, this assertion that raiders quit because of LFR makes no sense to me. People quit normal/heroic raiding for other reasons: time committment, burnout, lack of enjoyment of the content. And while I can accept that some of these people would have clung onto the raiding scene for a bit longer if they didn't have LFR to fall back on, I seriously doubt there is any significant number whose quitting normal/heroic raiding wasn't imminent and inevitable even without the existence LFR.

I mean, just look at all the comments on MMO-C about the topic. I have seen a ton of people claiming that tons of other people are quitting normal/heroic raiding to go to LFR. But from the side of those doing LFR, I have never heard a single player claiming that he/she has stopped normal/heroic because they prefer the LFR experience.

What I have heard a lot of is: "I can't raid anymore, so I do LFR". Take the part about LFR out of that sentence, and what are you left with? "I can't raid anymore".

[anaxie]

a small minority chooses to experience organized raiding, over many more that want to stay the hell out of it.
btw i'm not asking for heroic raids to be removed, in my opinion if that's your favourite playstyle its fine. problem is that heroic raiders want to take away the most important feature in the whole game, while its actually the only one that keeps the majority of the playerbase playing the game.
the raider lifestyle is not for everyone, actually its only for very few people. its not sustainable for the average gamer, but not because of the difficulty... because of the unreasonable RL/social requirements.

Taking away LFR would be insane because ti has directly resulted in the insane sized raids we have seen. Blizzard said so themselves. I HOWEVER feel the LFR needs topresent a far more challenging experience then it currently does. Not quite normal modes but you shouldn't beable to ignore every single mechanic or directly EAT all the bad mechanics and still be alive.

Hopfully Flex is this type of raid enviroment. Honestly FLEX appears to be what LFR should had been.

[Deleted]

IRL you dont see footballplayers in lower divisions complaining they dont get a chance to win the Premier League.
So why should WoW be any different? It is a game but people take raiding as competition, and if you dont cut it at the higher level there are lower divisions (LFR).

Im getting so tired of all this "hurpaderpa I dont have time to learn to play the game I pay 15$ give me this handfeed me that" nonsense.