Itemsquish reminder

[Deleted]

I don't get this. High numbers isn't problem, as long as you don't suck at math it's fine I think.

The problem is that a cumputer has to operate with higher and higher bits in order to use highe rnumbers. And in games server resources are very limited, therefore it makes alot of sense to reduce the numbers for the calculations.

For the user it isn't important if there are 100 damage with 1000 hp pools or more

[Thyranne]

If I only have 10 hp, I'm pretty screwed.

Just like Griffter's Frostbolt wouldn't hit hard if you had 300b HP

The problem is that a cumputer has to operate with higher and higher bits in order to use highe rnumbers. And in games server resources are very limited, therefore it makes alot of sense to reduce the numbers for the calculations.

For the user it isn't important if there are 100 damage with 1000 hp pools or more

Excuse me, where did you find this information about more numbers = more resources have to be spent to calculate them?

[ssviolett]

Griffter's Frostbolt hit you for 89,456,556,458.

Quite annoying.

Griffter's Frostbolt hits you for 89,46b damage.
Better now ?

[TyrantWave]

The problem is that a cumputer has to operate with higher and higher bits in order to use highe rnumbers. And in games server resources are very limited, therefore it makes alot of sense to reduce the numbers for the calculations.

For the user it isn't important if there are 100 damage with 1000 hp pools or more

Read my last post. It isn't an issue.

[Rizendragon]

Read my last post. It isn't an issue.

Let me fix that for you:

Read my last post. It isn't an issue, yet.

It will need to happen at some point. People need to stop denying that. Character progression isn't about the gear or the DPS # it's about progressing through the content. I honestly couldn't care less if I was only doing 1000 more DPS by the end of an expansion. I progressed through the content, I look cool, and I got more powerful along the way. Why do the numbers need so large for one to feel that way?

[Thyranne]

Let me fix that for you:

When bosses' HP get close to 3.40282e+038 we can start worrying about it.

[Rizendragon]

You don't have to care about numbers to be against wasting manhours on a pointless endeavour.


What does it matter if it was planned to be 250 and then got another 30 tacked on due to the changes or if it was planned to be 150 and then got another 30 tacked on? The squish will not change the steps between tiers in an expansion. It will affect the steps between expansions.

I was pointing out where it happened, how it happened, and why it should have been addressed already. It will help alleviate the bloat during an expansion. Right now if you're a fresh 90 and you were to go against a fully geared heroic raider you'd be doing 1/4th of his damage, and we're not even done with the expansion yet. That isn't how character progression should work really. This kind of disparity lends a hand to arena and pvp imbalances and it really puts the curve high for fresh alts and brand new players coming to the game mid-late expansion.

[Evil Inside]

I was pointing out where it happened, how it happened, and why it should have been addressed already. It will help alleviate the bloat during an expansion. Right now if you're a fresh 90 and you were to go against a fully geared heroic raider you'd be doing 1/4th of his damage, and we're not even done with the expansion yet. That isn't how character progression should work really. This kind of disparity lends a hand to arena and pvp imbalances and it really puts the curve high for fresh alts and brand new players coming to the game mid-late expansion.

They tried the "linear ilvl" thing in BC and early Wrath, you know how that worked out? People were wearing naxx gear in kara and BT/Sunwell gear well into Wrath Naxx, and that's something blizzard dont want because we're supposed to be progressing, not staying in the same gear into a new expansion.

[Thyranne]

I was pointing out where it happened, how it happened, and why it should have been addressed already. It will help alleviate the bloat during an expansion. Right now if you're a fresh 90 and you were to go against a fully geared heroic raider you'd be doing 1/4th of his damage, and we're not even done with the expansion yet. That isn't how character progression should work really. This kind of disparity lends a hand to arena and pvp imbalances and it really puts the curve high for fresh alts and brand new players coming to the game mid-late expansion.

That's exactly why they are (or already did) adding things like LFR, gear for VP, more craftable gear, flex raiding, heroic scenarios and many other things.

[Aquamonkey]

They tried the "linear ilvl" thing in BC and early Wrath, you know how that worked out? People were wearing naxx gear in kara and BT/Sunwell gear well into Wrath Naxx.

Dem set bonuses.

[TyrantWave]

Let me fix that for you:



It will need to happen at some point. People need to stop denying that. Character progression isn't about the gear or the DPS # it's about progressing through the content. I honestly couldn't care less if I was only doing 1000 more DPS by the end of an expansion. I progressed through the content, I look cool, and I got more powerful along the way. Why do the numbers need so large for one to feel that way?

Our hits, right now, aren't even at 0.05% of the cap. (Mages highest simmed hit is for ~600k base.) Eventually, when we're finally hitting for around 2,000 times more than we are now it will be an issue. At which point, if the type is changed to a LL, we'll be back down to 0.00000005% of the new cap

Anyway, onto the point about "Why do we need such large gains to feel powerful":

Let's say you have 100 Str. Your new sword gives you +10 Str. That's a 10% increase! wow!
Let's say you have 10,000 Str. Your new sword gives you +10 Str. That's a 0.1% increase. woo?

To keep the same feeling of progression, upgrades must be based on the current gear. This is why it's exponential.

[Rizendragon]

They tried the "linear ilvl" thing in BC and early Wrath, you know how that worked out? People were wearing naxx gear in kara and BT/Sunwell gear well into Wrath Naxx, and that's something blizzard dont want because we're supposed to be progressing, not staying in the same gear into a new expansion.

Yes i do remember that. If I remember correctly the world first Naxx25 was done in the first lockout in full Sunwell gear. Though I felt that was kind of dumb, was it really a problem? Maybe the content should have been tuned a bit higher? We also must remember that it was the top 1% that had this gear and demolished the raid in the first few weeks. The rest of us dredged through and geared up before going into the raid. That raid team did progress their gear to do the raid easier eventually, but it quite possibly may have been for the best to continue a linear ilvl path in hindsight.

[Thyranne]

Yes i do remember that. If I remember correctly the world first Naxx25 was done in the first lockout in full Sunwell gear. Though I felt that was kind of dumb, was it really a problem? Maybe the content should have been tuned a bit higher? We also must remember that it was the top 1% that had this gear and demolished the raid in the first few weeks. The rest of us dredged through and geared up before going into the raid. That raid team did progress their gear to do the raid easier eventually, but it quite possibly may have been for the best to continue a linear ilvl path in hindsight.

If they tuned it higher then they'd also have to make those drops better.

[Deleted]

Read my last post. It isn't an issue.

And how do you know which numbers internal serversided systems use in order to calculate them?
The servers have to handle more than just substracting 100k frostbolt from 400k hp.

Also my statement was based on blizzards explaination why they are considering an item squish in the first place when it was first announced.

No at the moment it is not an issue, but it will become one with time, so they are interested in a solution that is there when it comes to that point.



I realy hope they will do that squip, I can't stand those numbers anyway, in classic a 2k crit was huge, now we're speaking of a 200k crit being huge just 5 expensions later.

[corebit]

This whole stat inflation makes PVP, particularly world PVP pointless. A heroic geared 90 can basically one-shot a fresh 90 right now, without even talking lower levels. It's just ridiculous.

Some people say it's just numbers on the screen, but they're wrong. Even PVE is affected. Some classes can already solo heroic dungeons of the CURRENT expansion. A DK just soloe'd Sha of Fear recently.

[Thyranne]

And how do you know which numbers internal serversided systems use in order to calculate them?
The servers have to handle more than just substracting 100k frostbolt from 400k hp.

Please, tell me in what architecture 5 + 5 would be faster than 100 + 100?

Because the way my computer sees it is:

00000101
+00000101

and

01100100
+01100100

This whole stat inflation makes PVP, particularly world PVP pointless. A heroic geared 90 can basically one-shot a fresh 90 right now, without even talking lower levels. It's just ridiculous.

Some people say it's just numbers on the screen, but they're wrong. Even PVE is affected. Some classes can already solo heroic dungeons of the CURRENT expansion. A DK just soloe'd Sha of Fear recently.

A rogue soloed Patchwerk in Naxxramas25 in WotLK.

[TyrantWave]

And how do you know which numbers internal serversided systems use in order to calculate them?
The servers have to handle more than just substracting 100k frostbolt from 400k hp.

Also my statement was based on blizzards explaination why they are considering an item squish in the first place when it was first announced.

No at the moment it is not an issue, but it will become one with time, so they are interested in a solution that is there when it comes to that point.



I realy hope they will do that squip, I can't stand those numbers anyway, in classic a 2k crit was huge, now we're speaking of a 200k crit being huge just 5 expensions later.

You're right, they do need to calculate more than that.

However, even with a squish, they'd still need to calculate the exact same steps. Only one of these steps is currently in "danger" of needing a type change to Long Long - the final step where damage is subtracted from the bosses health pool. Yes, this does need to be fixed, and yes, I do reckon Blizzard have had people working on that very issue since MoP landed.

Why do I assume the servers are using Ints for damage calculation? Because I'd be more surprised if they didn't.

[Deleted]

This whole stat inflation makes PVP, particularly world PVP pointless. A heroic geared 90 can basically one-shot a fresh 90 right now, without even talking lower levels. It's just ridiculous.

Some people say it's just numbers on the screen, but they're wrong. Even PVE is affected. Some classes can already solo heroic dungeons of the CURRENT expansion. A DK just soloe'd Sha of Fear recently.

This is something people refuse to understand.

Back in for exemple BC the difference between two tiers of pvp gear were like 12 strengh per item. Numbers you could overcome with skill against gear.
Now we're talking about nearly 150 str difference per piece of gear.
And that is just the difference between two pvp tiers.

It is like a scissor, the farer you reach the end the bigger the gap will become.

[Rizendragon]

Our hits, right now, aren't even at 0.05% of the cap. (Mages highest simmed hit is for ~600k base.) Eventually, when we're finally hitting for around 2,000 times more than we are now it will be an issue. At which point, if the type is changed to a LL, we'll be back down to 0.00000005% of the new cap

Anyway, onto the point about "Why do we need such large gains to feel powerful":

Let's say you have 100 Str. Your new sword gives you +10 Str. That's a 10% increase! wow!
Let's say you have 10,000 Str. Your new sword gives you +10 Str. That's a 0.1% increase. woo?

To keep the same feeling of progression, upgrades must be based on the current gear. This is why it's exponential.

My naked DK at lvl90 with no spec has 212 Str. It's absurd that we are getting gear that has 1000+str on them. A Titansteel Destroyer has 124 Str on it. A Heroic Bryntroll had 185 Str on it. If we were to even squish gear down to a linear item level progression from Wrath we'd fix a bunch of the numbers issues we have atm.

[Thyranne]

You're right, they do need to calculate more than that.

However, even with a squish, they'd still need to calculate the exact same steps. Only one of these steps is currently in "danger" of needing a type change to Long Long - the final step where damage is subtracted from the bosses health pool. Yes, this does need to be fixed, and yes, I do reckon Blizzard have had people working on that very issue since MoP landed.

Why do I assume the servers are using Ints for damage calculation? Because I'd be more surprised if they didn't.

They actually use float.

My naked DK at lvl90 with no spec has 212 Str. It's absurd that we are getting gear that has 1000+str on them. A Titansteel Destroyer has 124 Str on it. A Heroic Bryntroll had 185 Str on it. If we were to even squish gear down to a linear item level progression from Wrath we'd fix a bunch of the numbers issues we have atm.

What issue exactly?