Itemsquish reminder

[Rizendragon]

A freshly dinged 80 did around 2k dps, while hc raiders at 80 could reach around 16k~ dps.

So what changed?

Wrath actually changed the status quo in regards to this. The stat disparity occurred because of the switch to 4 raiding formats and essentially making the difference in the bottom end of the tier to the top end being 26ilvls instead of 13. So we essentially had 6 tiers of gear in 4 raids. Without this we would have ended at 252 and around 8k DPS. Cata wouldn't have had to be as absurd as it was to compensate and hard reset the gear. It has lead to this happening mid PvP season:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...-in-a-day-now/

Quite simply the stat inflation is bad for the health of the game and is broken as it is.

[Theronus]

The reason that the squish is so shunned, it's because people don't understand what it actually is.

Imagine that you have 500k health and you do 100k dps.
A random boss from the old content you LOVE to solo hits you for 10000 average and he has 2 million health.
With your 100k dps you will kill him in 20 seconds and he will damage you for a total of 200000 damage, so you're left with 300k, which is 60%.

Now imagine that now you have 5000 health, and you do 1000 dps.
A random boss from the old content you still LOVE to solo now hits you for 100 damage and he has 20000 health.
With your new 1000 dps you kill him in the same 20 seconds and he will damage you for a total of 2000 damage, so you're left with 3000 health, which is the same 60%.

So tell me, what's so different about these two cases?

[Deleted]

Wrath actually changed the status quo in regards to this. The stat disparity occurred because of the switch to 4 raiding formats and essentially making the difference in the bottom end of the tier to the top end being 26ilvls instead of 13. So we essentially had 6 tiers of gear in 4 raids. Without this we would have ended at 252 and around 8k DPS. Cata wouldn't have had to be as absurd as it was to compensate and hard reset the gear. It has lead to this happening mid PvP season:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...-in-a-day-now/

Quite simply the stat inflation is bad for the health of the game and is broken as it is.

I was about to write that but didn't find the right words, so fully agree.


Basically Itemshquish doesn't make more than jst erase the huge gaps between gear and tiers of past content.

Nothing more. So I don't understand why people complain about it, it just takes the game back to earth with numbers people can comprehend easier and which are easier to read and compare.

Or do you realy find it fund to compare 23098 haste against 13987 masters + 14986 crit
I personally woudl rather compare 212 haste against 103 mastery + 123 crit.

[asdfsaf]

Hm, true. By quite a significant exponent too. Showing how even using the (in comparison) tiny Int is still 2,000* off should get an idea of just how much this isn't an issue.

Also, as Blizz have noted that caps are being reached, I'm using the lower common value for calculations.

If we turn around and use Floats:

Current max cap: 3.402823466 E + 38. Let's say, somehow, we break that.
Let's now use a Double. New cap: 1.7976931348623158 E + 308

first of all, it has been shown on raden that health uses signed 4 byte integers.

second of all, using float for something like this is the dumbest idea ever.

[JohnBrown1917]

Wrath actually changed the status quo in regards to this. The stat disparity occurred because of the switch to 4 raiding formats and essentially making the difference in the bottom end of the tier to the top end being 26ilvls instead of 13. So we essentially had 6 tiers of gear in 4 raids. Without this we would have ended at 252 and around 8k DPS. Cata wouldn't have had to be as absurd as it was to compensate and hard reset the gear. It has lead to this happening mid PvP season:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...-in-a-day-now/

Quite simply the stat inflation is bad for the health of the game and is broken as it is.

You haven't explained why it is bad for the health of the game.

[Rizendragon]

The reason that the squish is so shunned, it's because people don't understand what it actually is.

Imagine that you have 500k health and you do 100k dps.
A random boss from the old content you LOVE to solo hits you for 10000 average and he has 2 million health.
With your 100k dps you will kill him in 20 seconds and he will damage you for a total of 200000 damage, so you're left with 300k, which is 60%.

Now imagine that now you have 5000 health, and you do 1000 dps.
A random boss from the old content you still LOVE to solo now hits you for 100 damage and he has 20000 health.
With your new 1000 dps you kill him in the same 20 seconds and he will damage you for a total of 2000 damage, so you're left with 3000 health, which is the same 60%.

So tell me, what's so different about these two cases?

The problem is that it wouldn't be a flat decrease across every thing it would close the gap on old content, but I don't think it would close it as drastically as people fear. At worst you'd need 3 people to go into MC after the squish to kill stuff. We used to do 15 man raids on Mannoroth in Wrath for fun. That is something I miss personally, because soloing raids just feels lame.

[Thyranne]

first of all, it has been shown on raden that health uses signed 4 byte integers.

second of all, using float for something like this is the dumbest idea ever.

First of all I have no idea of what raden is.

Second how do you think that you handle spells coefficient like Hammer of Wrath?

[JohnBrown1917]

The problem is that it wouldn't be a flat decrease across every thing it would close the gap on old content, but I don't think it would close it as drastically as people fear. At worst you'd need 3 people to go into MC after the squish to kill stuff. We used to do 15 man raids on Mannoroth in Wrath for fun. That is something I miss personally, because soloing raids just feels lame.

So you know it will affect the gameplay. I hope you also know many people acteally enjoy solo'ing raids for the challenge(tbc 25/wrath 10-man in cata, wrath-25 man/cata 10-man in cata).

So why should blizzard add in a visual change(its nothing more than that untill it starts affecting the performance). That will remove content from certain players? It makes no sense.

[Rizendragon]

You haven't explained why it is bad for the game.

The link pretty much sums it up. The stat disparity between a fresh 90 and a geared 90 is now out of hand. They have had to put in systems to hyperspeed people to catch up. It isn't good for the game in the long run. Previously you had people that would sub for long terms and work at gearing without being stomped into oblivion until you got a fair amount of gear, but now there is no reason to set foot into an arena until you are fully geared in current season's gear. In Wrath my ilvl200 gear was still effective into season 7 before I noticed a big drop off in survivability; which coincidentally is around the same time the stat bloat started...

[Thyranne]

The link pretty much sums it up. The stat disparity between a fresh 90 and a geared 90 is now out of hand. They have had to put in systems to hyperspeed people to catch up. It isn't good for the game in the long run. Previously you had people that would sub for long terms and work at gearing without being stomped into oblivion until you got a fair amount of gear, but now there is no reason to set foot into an arena until you are fully geared in current season's gear. In Wrath my ilvl200 gear was still effective into season 7 before I noticed a big drop off in survivability; which coincidentally is around the same time the stat bloat started...

Where exactly do they get stomped?

[JohnBrown1917]

The link pretty much sums it up. The stat disparity between a fresh 90 and a geared 90 is now out of hand. They have had to put in systems to hyperspeed people to catch up. It isn't good for the game in the long run. Previously you had people that would sub for long terms and work at gearing without being stomped into oblivion until you got a fair amount of gear, but now there is no reason to set foot into an arena until you are fully geared in current season's gear. In Wrath my ilvl200 gear was still effective into season 7 before I noticed a big drop off in survivability; which coincidentally is around the same time the stat bloat started...

I'm purely talking about PvE here.

PvP can be fixed by other means than a squish. In other words, its not affect the health of the game. The difference between freshly dinged players and fully hc geared players has always been rather big.

[Rizendragon]

So you know it will affect the gameplay. I hope you also know many people acteally enjoy solo'ing raids for the challenge(tbc 25/wrath 10-man in cata, wrath-25 man/cata 10-man in cata).

So why should blizzard add in a visual change(its nothing more than that untill it starts affecting the performance). That will remove content from certain players? It makes no sense.

Because this is a multi-player game at the core. Soloing old raids is a relatively new thing If you wanted to go back and do a quick farm run of OS at this point you might as well go in by yourself, but previously you would have found a group to do it. It's helping ruin the community by limiting party socialization which isn't the point of an MMO at all. That's a hallmark of a single player game. If i wanted a single player game I'd get a PS3 and play CoD or some such...

[Thyranne]

Because this is a multi-player game at the core. Soloing old raids is a relatively new thing If you wanted to go back and do a quick farm run of OS at this point you might as well go in by yourself, but previously you would have found a group to do it. It's helping ruin the community by limiting party socialization which isn't the point of an MMO at all. That's a hallmark of a single player game. If i wanted a single player game I'd get a PS3 and play CoD or some such...

Because getting weaker as time passes is part of a RPG? If I wanted to play a game with static numbers I'd play CoD too.

[JohnBrown1917]

Because this is a multi-player game at the core. Soloing old raids is a relatively new thing If you wanted to go back and do a quick farm run of OS at this point you might as well go in by yourself, but previously you would have found a group to do it. It's helping ruin the community by limiting party socialization which isn't the point of an MMO at all. That's a hallmark of a single player game. If i wanted a single player game I'd get a PS3 and play CoD or some such...

They added brawlers guild, they will also be adding proving grounds. Questing is something you can do solo. They added pets to solo'able bosses.
The 'MMO' argument doesn't really work.

I'm asking you why a visual change should affect the gameplay of a game. Don't dodge the question.

[Rizendragon]

I'm purely talking about PvE here.

PvP can be fixed by other means than a squish. In other words, its not affect the health of the game. The difference between freshly dinged players and fully hc geared players has always been rather big.

Not as big as it is now. In BC you were looking at 1kDPS vs 2kDPS that's 50%. If Wrath had ended with ilvl252, as it was planned, we would have been 2-2.5kDPS vs 4-6kDPS. By the end of MoP we'll be looking at 1/8th - 1/16th the power of a fully geared heroic SoO player.

- - - Updated - - -

They added brawlers guild, they will also be adding proving grounds. Questing is something you can do solo. They added pets to solo'able bosses.
The 'MMO' argument doesn't really work.

I'm asking you why a visual change should affect the gameplay of a game. Don't dodge the question.

Maybe you're simply not satisfied with my answer? I'm not dodging. I'm answering why I believe it's detrimental.

We may have reached the end of the discussion honestly. If you simply cannot understand that I believe that it is ruining the PvP aspect, the PvE aspect, and the multi-player portion of MMORPG then we probably won't ever agree on this matter.

The fact remains that the stat disparity proportional to player and boss health is getting too far apart. In my opinion that is a bad thing and in your opinion it's no big deal, but where is the line drawn? When the previous tier is no longer relevant as soon as you have full top tier heroic gear? I'll probably be out of the game if that starts happening. People simply shouldn't be soloing same expansion content, again barring very creative mechanic use, ever.

[MasterHamster]

Since the reduction would have to take heed to the fact that 1-60 is way more linear than 61-90, how exactly could soloing be unaffected? You'd end up with raids being extremely easy at their respective level if they aren't to become harder to solo.

So a 90 suddenly has 50k hp and does 10k dps, and goes against classic Ragnaros. Should Ragnaros now have 110k hp? Well, how would that affect players around the raids level? Their damage wouldn't go down as much as the 90, since 1-60 growth is pretty linear. This would make players below max level more powerful in relation to the content that are "current" for their level.

This squish will either:
Make soloing harder,
or create some very odd situations

[Deleted]

Because getting weaker as time passes is part of a RPG? If I wanted to play a game with static numbers I'd play CoD too.

That is basically what happens while leveling through MoP.

You start with around 30% crit, 20% haste and so on ... and lose like 5% per levelup without getting the gear to compensate it.

When I hit 90 I am weaker than I was with level 85.


So I can say, used to it.

[Thyranne]

That is basically what happens while leveling through MoP.

You start with around 30% crit, 20% haste and so on ... and lose like 5% per levelup without getting the gear to compensate it.

When I hit 90 I am weaker than I was with level 85.


So I can say, used to it.

So you can do 100k dps at level 85?

When my monk got to 90 I was able to do like 60-70k DPS while I was at 85 I'd do 40k.

Ps: I was using the BoA spear.

[Deleted]

So you can do 100k dps at level 85?

you can't even do that while fresh 90 so why the question?

edit:
Well I guess within a few seconds while using all brust cooldowns, probably, dps are more than that.
I have a 90 Monk aswell and I can asure you that is not true.


I did with most of my 6 90 classes more dps while being 85 then after hiting 90 ... that changed after I geared with lvl 90 heroic gear again.

But I was weaker till I got that gear.

[Thyranne]

you can't even do that while fresh 90 so why the question?

Read what I edited.