Is Vengeance Getting Out Of Control?

[nightfalls]

Also, to be fair, I have topped meters on both H Jin-rok and H Primordius, if that makes you feel worse about yourself, I apologize.

Right, and my argument was that tanks aren't actually bad on Jin'rokh or Primordius either, but rather, the top ranks on WOL are skewed because those are "gimmick" non-tank fights. Basically, tanks are really just topping meters overall.

I don't DPS on my main so there's nothing for me to feel "worse" about... but thank you for proving my point. Yet again, you are the only one getting personal in this thread.

What's going to happen with the new tank cloak regarding vengeance? Can you stand in some retarded 10mill damage attack and live, and gain vengeance from it? D:

Vengeance now ignores overkill damage.

[kendro1200]

If they lowered tank damage back to Cata or even TBC levels I'd probably re-roll back to a DPS class.
To me, playing a tank these days is a lot of fun. It's somewhat challenging and very rewarding.

I wouldn't want my fun to get nerfed.

^ This
Exactly what is bad about tanks doing high damage? You can't stack tanks and sit dps specs to cheese encounters, so there really isn't an issue. The current system is actually pretty nice, and having the ability to push meaningful dps, if you have the capability to along with doing your job of tanking, is a nice extra skill side grade to the tanking role. I mean let's face it, as it currently stands active mitigation basically gives you the illusion that you're being amazing over the WotLK and Cata models, you're pretty much tanking the same relative amount of damage each fight, but by pushing buttons you feel like you're actually contributing to your survival. If active mitigation worked to actually make you more survivable to the previous passive mitigation iteration, THEN there would be far less healers needed if the amount of aoe damage to the raid stayed the same as to the past, because tanks would be able to sustain off incidental aoe heals. So with an illusion that you're amazing in play for your role, having the ability to actually make a contribution via dps is nice. This also provides the possibility of maybe having people who are solely interested in dps coming to the tanking roles because of numbers they see other tanks putting out.

[nightfalls]

This also provides the possibility of maybe having people who are solely interested in dps coming to the tanking roles because of numbers they see other tanks putting out.

/shrug, the only actual (legitimate, that is) reason I see for having tank numbers so high is just to get more players to play tanks. Seeing as people somehow have an aversion to doing so, even though tanking normal modes (or below) is pretty much trivial.

[Deja Thoris]

And for the idiots linking ra-den logs, seriously, fuck yourselves.

I have given you a direct reason why you're viewpoint is invalid, as is tradition on the internet, when someone is shown to be wrong, that person is now entitled to make a personal attack at the person who pointed out their retardation, so, flame on sir.

You're a shining example of how debates take place on the internet.

[djtravitrav]

You're a shining example of how debates take place on the internet.

Hey, at least I own it.

[Deleted]

Nah. I enjoy hitting like a truck as a monk tank.

[Pickwickman]

/shrug, the only actual (legitimate, that is) reason I see for having tank numbers so high is just to get more players to play tanks. Seeing as people somehow have an aversion to doing so, even though tanking normal modes (or below) is pretty much trivial.

And the sad part is, that the removal of vengeance as it is bow will make lots of those tank rerollers roll away from the spec again.

Now, as I've said, and will stay say, those fights you're talking about are irrellevant. They are irrelevant for a reason. People that rank so high always cheese something in the fight, and in the current raiding tier there's too much shit to soak vengeance from that it's borderline retarded (can give you examples on every single boss that explains this). And thé way to combat it IS just get rid of vengeance gain from void zones.

It's funny how you are putting shutters infront of your eyes for the actual problem here. And THAT is the reason why I keep saying that only Ra-den and DA are actual fights where vengeance reaches highpoints legitimately.

And going into 6.0 that's what I want to see from vengeance.

Ps: Nice comment about my posts being walls of text without meaning. I am sure that your walls are oh so informative. Good way of debating bro.

[nightfalls]

Pickwick, as of now this is my last post in reply to you here. I must say I'm disappointed after finding your characters considering it was you who tried to ask "what raid mode I played" as a "nice" introduction.

1) I think you vastly overestimate how much of a tank's damage intake (on a typical fight) comes from void zones.

2) Ra-den is simply an absurdity among absurd tank DPS. It's pointed to because it's just so extreme, but even if you removed him from the equation you would see tanks dominating meters in general. Obviously some specs (monk) do so more than others (DK).

---

To others: As I have openly admitted and not tried to disguise/hide/lie, I don't personally tank heroics for progression (it's not my main spec). So to a point, I can defer to more experienced tanks, but my observations above purely are going off of log data.

[Dero]

Pickwick, as of now this is my last post in reply to you here. I must say I'm disappointed after finding your characters considering it was you who tried to ask "what raid mode I played" as a "nice" introduction.

1) I think you vastly overestimate how much of a tank's damage intake (on a typical fight) comes from void zones.

2) Ra-den is simply an absurdity among absurd tank DPS. It's pointed to because it's just so extreme, but even if you removed him from the equation you would see tanks dominating meters in general. Obviously some specs (monk) do so more than others (DK).

---

To others: As I have openly admitted and not tried to disguise/hide/lie, I don't personally tank heroics for progression (it's not my main spec). So to a point, I can defer to more experienced tanks, but my observations above purely are going off of log data.

Just to set it clear right now again I said it earlier if vengeance is nerfed then they need to fix most of the tank cds/active mitgation because as it is at the moment the only ones that would be slightly to nothing unchanged is druids/dks cause blood shield doesn't scale with vengeance and only frenzied regen does for druids. Where as expel harm, guard, level 30 talents for monks do. For pallies wog,eternal flame and other heals they have. Warriors have shield barrier which scales alot with vengeance

[nightfalls]

Just to set it clear right now again I said it earlier if vengeance is nerfed then they need to fix most of the tank cds/active mitgation because as it is at the moment the only ones that would be slightly to nothing unchanged is druids/dks cause blood shield doesn't scale with vengeance and only frenzied regen does for druids.

And to also set it clear, I said earlier two things

1) Any major vengeance changes should be for 6.0. Even the "vengeance cap" may be too big a change for 5.4, let alone an entire rework. Even though in principle, I don't like tanks playing such a large role in raid DPS, I've accepted that will be the case in MOP and trying to "fix" it aside from void zones and /sit will probably lead to more negative than positive.

2) Obviously tank mitigation would have to be reworked if vengeance is overhauled for 6.0. Tank mitigation will probably be tweaked again for 6.0 anyway (hopefully not as massive a change as going from passive -> active), but what exactly they would do we'll see.

I might not "main-spec" tank in raid but I still completely understand how ability AP scaling works

[Dero]

And to also set it clear, I said earlier two things

1) Any major vengeance changes should be for 6.0. Even the "vengeance cap" may be too big a change for 5.4, let alone an entire rework. Even though in principle, I don't like tanks playing such a large role in raid DPS, I've accepted that will be the case in MOP and trying to "fix" it aside from void zones and /sit will probably lead to more negative than positive.

2) Obviously tank mitigation would have to be reworked if vengeance is overhauled for 6.0. Tank mitigation will probably be tweaked again for 6.0 anyway (hopefully not as massive a change as going from passive -> active), but what exactly they would do we'll see.

I might not "main-spec" tank in raid but I still completely understand how ability AP scaling works

Well at least you understand the scaling because most people here asking for these nerfs are just mad but they aren't the one on the other end making sure that said player is using his mitigation correctly because if not you practically get gimped...ala Tsulong without shuffle up on a monk is pretty much dead.

[Shiny212]

I think it was a stupid mechanic to begin with and it destroyed my enjoyment of tanking. Ever since the 300% increase to threat gen what I found fun in tanking, that is to build threat on mobs and hold aggro as dps viciously try to take it back, was gone. Giving tanks the ability to do huge amounts of damage simply because they get a passive and massive increase in damage by being hit hard does not make it more fun.

[nightfalls]

Well at least you understand the scaling because most people here asking for these nerfs are just mad but they aren't the one on the other end making sure that said player is using his mitigation correctly because if not you practically get gimped...ala Tsulong without shuffle up on a monk is pretty much dead.

It's a pretty difficult discussion to have, IMO idiocy on both sides.

One side basically has people with no clue how tanks work and wants to make illogical suggestions to "nerf tanks" without realizing that big blanket nerfs have pretty sweeping consequences. The other side has people who basically are just screaming "don't nerf me bro" even if it's thinly-veiled under a layer of bravado.

I think it was a stupid mechanic to begin with and it destroyed my enjoyment of tanking. Ever since the 300% increase to threat gen what I found fun in tanking, that is to build threat on mobs and hold aggro as dps viciously try to take it back, was gone. Giving tanks the ability to do huge amounts of damage simply because they get a passive and massive increase in damage by being hit hard does not make it more fun.

The irony is that eliminating threat is intended to make things more fun for the DPS to begin with, not the tank.

[Pickwickman]

Yup, you sure found me. Perhaps you searched pickwickman on the armory and thought that's me. Cute.

Jon'Rokh: Eat orbs during lightning phase, stand in waters.
Horridon: Keeping DoTs rolling on you: particularly the disease from the 3rd door.
Council: Sands.
Tortos: Eating full rockfalls.
Mageara: This one is tricky, but cinders are a good source, but no decent guild would have cinders in melee.
Ji'kun: Pools, all the pools. I gained 40-50k dps on my alt pals just by soaking those.
Durumu: standing solo in colorblinds, eating more stacks than needed if 2 tanking.
Primordius: Meh, no real way of cheesing that actually contributes to dps.
Dark Animus: See zerg start. If not, eating an orb of the Anima ring.
Iron Qon: Fire lines. Fire lines. Fire lines. Rest of the lines are useless.
Twins: Keep your beast alive as long as you can. Eat as many Fans as you can.
Lei Shen: Keep adds that spawn with chain lightning alive, e eat the decapitate and keep tanking him with the debuff.

Man, you ARE clueless about current tanking. AND I haven't even talked about /sit or solo tanking (council/tortos/mageara/durumu/Iron Qon/Twins and normal mode Lei Shen can all be safely solo tanked on HEROIC. If you aren't seeing that THAT is the problem you're delusional.

Ps:http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...night/advanced

Edit: I might sound cranky towards you, but really, you need to consider the implications of what I posted, and my first question to you about your raiding level.

Because as you said, an average tank can easily outdps an average DPS because in my opinion the skillcap of a tank is lower than that of a DPSer, and if you were someone who falls into the 'average' then it would be clearer how to approach your statements, I didn't want to make you feel as if I was looking down on you.

And, I do agree with that vengeance should be changed for 6.0 tanks should be able to compete with dpsers, but not be able to obliterate them on the charts.

Pps: mobile phone keyboards are Hell.

[Deleted]

Nowhere in that description does it infer that tanks can't do competitive damage.

Fights are balanced around tanks doing "decent" dps these days.

Noone cares about levelling dungeons. (The game is balanced around endgame)

Tanks are the most sought after role in game. Anything that makes them feel more fun should be encouraged, not discouraged. Being a sponge to soak damage does not encourage people to roll tanks.

If a dps of a similar item level can't outdamage a tank then they are bad. Perhaps tanks know their shit better than dps'rs (generalisation) because when they get it wrong theres wipes and angry noises. Dps'rs derping and doing low damage is just par for the course.


There, that's 5 points. If they want to do a "tuning pass" to stop the game losing subs then I'm sure tank damage will be low on the prio list.

This post hits the nail on the head.
While I don't tank to do insane damage, it is still a nice bonus and it's fun to see a big number pop out every now and then.

[Paulosio]

When tanks are the top damage in a lot of fights there are issues. This is particularly the case with paladin tanks who can solo tank a lot of bosses.

When tanks are rewarded with higher damage for doing things like deliberately standing in fire there is a problem (my guilds main tank stands in burning embers on Iron Qon for example...). Obviously on heroic mode most guilds aren't going to emply such tactics (but some do).

[nightfalls]

When tanks are the top damage in a lot of fights there are issues. This is particularly the case with paladin tanks who can solo tank a lot of bosses.

Right, my particular issue is simply how raid contribution is weighted. Obviously due to spec, role, and (perhaps most importantly) skill variations it won't be perfectly equal for all 25 players and it's unrealistic to think it will be.

But when 1-2 players are contributing 1) most of the damage mitigation of the raid (minus some external/raid cooldowns from healers/DPS), 2) more healing than any healer, and 3) more DPS than any DPS, that's when the player is just too important compared to the rest of his group (and notice I said by design, this is assuming relatively equally skilled players).

In fact, this "contribution" concept is well known to many tanks. Back in the day when they did not do much damage, a popular complaint was that they could "afk auto-attack." Obviously they would still contribute positive damage and thus should not do so, but that positive contribution was so little it didn't make much of a difference in their minds. This is even when due to other reasons (boss positioning and damage mitigation for instance) they were still extremely important members of the group.

[nightfalls]

There's a new thread if you're interested but it has far more actual tank players who agree that vengeance levels at this point are ridiculous.

Yup, you sure found me. Perhaps you searched pickwickman on the armory and thought that's me. Cute... I might sound cranky towards you, but really, you need to consider the implications of what I posted, and my first question to you about your raiding level.

Yes, I found your armory that you linked. I wasn't going to link it for the forum to read though. I've considered all of the implications of what you posted and I will not answer your first question about raiding level other than to satisfy your curiosity, I have killed more bosses than you. Inb4 "that doesn't mean shit" - well, that's why I didn't answer your question.

Anyway I think this post is worthy of responding to, so here goes:

Jon'Rokh: Eat orbs during lightning phase, stand in waters.

Standing in water is effective, eating orbs does really little. As far as I know, you're better off just tanking him the entire time if you want damage, at the cost of massive raid damage.

Horridon: Keeping DoTs rolling on you: particularly the disease from the 3rd door.
Tortos: Eating full rockfalls.

The contribution from that disease and rockfalls compared to what you get just for tanking Horridon / the bats is absolutely pitiful. Yes it might be a positive number but it is definitely not what is inflating tank DPS.

Ji'kun: Pools, all the pools. I gained 40-50k dps on my alt pals just by soaking those.

You sure it wasn't just from taking extra Talon Rakes?

Primordius: Meh, no real way of cheesing that actually contributes to dps.

Extra stacks of the DoT and getting the buff first sounds like a good idea. Earlier on this used to be way more effective than it is now, that's why they nerfed the health of the boss, to make up for nerfing tank DPS because tank DPS really contributed that much. In fact prior to nerfs this was one of the only fights where tanks were specifically given an ability (and an expectation) to contribute significantly toward the boss damage.

Iron Qon: Fire lines. Fire lines. Fire lines. Rest of the lines are useless.

Of course the other lines are useless, they debuff you. Frankly again most of the vengeance-contributing damage comes from... melee and impale.

Lei Shen: Keep adds that spawn with chain lightning alive, e eat the decapitate and keep tanking him with the debuff.

The chain lightning is suicidal on heroic your raid is NOT going to keep that alive. Yes, you can get something from Decapitate, but honestly you don't need to. The real damage comes from AoE on those bouncing lightnings especially in Phase 3. In Phase 3 you will NOT be easily cheesing damage from taking more than you should but you don't need to, the damage you take naturally in Phase 3 is quite enough.

Man, you ARE clueless about current tanking.... If you aren't seeing that THAT is the problem you're delusional.

Perhaps I am, but at least I'm aware of how encounters work. Anyway I really responded to this 1 by 1 just to show my point earlier, which is that you (and many others) are vastly overestimating how much "cheesing" contributes to damage total.

[Rucati]

I love how everyone just jumps straight to Ra-Den. You realize that is just about the only fight where you will see numbers like that? Go look at all 13 fights of ToT and see how many tanks are topping damage on.

If you have a fight with very high damage on the tank, he will do very high dps. That is why you see quite ridiculous levels of tank dps on Ra-Den. On other fights, you really don't see this.

Looking at the first 12 fights, I see a tank in top 10 DPS on...
Horridon
Council
Tortos
Primordius
Dark Animus
Iron Qon
Twin Consorts
Lei Shen

So tell me, why should a tank be able to be top 10 DPS on over half the fights in the raid? This is taking into account 10 and 25 man.

Tanks are there to tank things, to absorb damage, maybe do 2/3 the damage of a DPS class, not to straight up beat all the DPS in the raid. That's completely idiotic, how can anyone look at numbers like that and think Vengeance is acceptable as it is now? Completely idiotic.

[Lemons]

Now we have TANKS posting in the TOP TEN on WoL? Jesus Christ. This is one of the reasons I stopped playing this game, the balance is simply atrocious. I played pure DPS, and there was a time when that felt good because you did the most DPS. Then they felt bad for hybrids so they made them do good DPS, but there was a small "hybrid tax" meaning they did a tiny bit less (estimated to be around 5%). Then somewhere along the line that idea fell by the wayside, because hybrids seem to do just as much DPS as a pure nowadays, and no one even says shit about the hybrid tax anymore. However, I can deal with that, because I'll win by being a superior player and generally being the tryhard that I am.

But then in MoP I started noticing that on certain fights, mostly when AoE is involved, my tank would outdps me. That pisses me off. That should never be possible I don't care if he's in heroic raid gear and I'm wearing grey boots off Hogger. Okay, bad analogy, but you get my point. Shouldn't be #*@!ing possible under normal circumstances.

And honestly I don't care if tanks are having fun DPSing. If they find DPSing so fun then they should stop tanking and spec/roll DPS.

And finally...I see this as a problem for tanks as well. the name of the game for many years, when it comes to tanking, has been homogenization. Make all the tanks more or less the same so that you can "take the player, not the class" when it comes to selecting your tanks. When DPS comes into consideration, however, it makes some tanks superior. Some simply do more DPS than others. You could say "well just homogenize tank DPS", but Blizzard already have enough balancing to do wihtout that taking up room on the to-do list. Tanks shouldn't have to be balanced in that way, all tank DPS should be so low that it's a non-factor to all but the most hardcore of guilds.