Horde's War Council

[Wildberry]

but now the raceswould have an equal say in the command of the horde.

Not to mention, every race in the Horde owes the Orcs big time.

Trolls: saved by the Orcs from the Alliance and Murlocs with their Sea witch
Tauren: Saved by the Orcs from the Centaur
Forsaken: Given political shielding to deter the Alliance, even moreso post-wrathgate
Blood Elves: Got to tag along on the Expedition to Outland, also offered a shield against the Alliance, what with Dwarven and Darnassian Spies in Quel'thalas
Goblins: Allowed to turn Azshara into their new home after Mt. Kajaro erupted

[zito]

Got to tag along on the Expedition to Outland, also offered a shield against the Alliance, what with Dwarven and Darnassian Spies in Quel'thalas

That was the forsaken. The warchief (not orcs) accepted the treaty into the horde.

Allowed to turn Azshara into their new home after Mt. Kajaro erupted

Thrall said they could use the lands since it was basically unused. True he was an orc but he wasn't warcheif anymore.

Given political shielding to deter the Alliance

That's a bunch of crap. Political shielding... LOL

saved by the Orcs from the Alliance and Murlocs with their Sea witch

And now they are being murdered by orcs.

[checking facts]

Not to mention, every race in the Horde owes the Orcs big time.

Trolls: saved by the Orcs from the Alliance and Murlocs with their Sea witch
Tauren: Saved by the Orcs from the Centaur
Forsaken: Given political shielding to deter the Alliance, even moreso post-wrathgate
Blood Elves: Got to tag along on the Expedition to Outland, also offered a shield against the Alliance, what with Dwarven and Darnassian Spies in Quel'thalas
Goblins: Allowed to turn Azshara into their new home after Mt. Kajaro erupted

trolls - than they were executed by garrosh. they don't owe the orcs nothing anymore.
forsaken: they owe the tauren (hamuul). thrall didn't want to let them join.
blood elves - they owe the forsaken (sylvanas). thrall didn't want to let them join.
goblins - they owe nothing unless there's a contract involved

[Wildberry]

actually it's 6/7, you forgot the dark horde that served nefarian, with rend blackhand as the warchief.

Forgive me, it's late and the Dark Horde wasn't memorable.

now let's look at it. from those 6 no-warchief hordes, 5 of them fell because the warchief was bad and the last one just ended because the warchief gave his position to a new bad warchief.

Doomhammer's Horde was doing very well until Gul'dan officially betrayed the Horde
Ner'zhul's Horde accomplished what they set out to do, only to be intercepted by Kil'jaedan
Thrall's Horde Turned out Well
The Fel Horde saw demon corrupted Orcs drinking more demon Blood
The Dark Horde was led into the clutches of Nefarian
The True Horde...well R.I.P. Nazgrim...

3/6 certainly isn't as bad as you're making it out to be.

sure, the horde with a council wasn't any good either, but that's because the council was full of warlocks and necrolytes, not because the system is bad.

The system is bad because it strips away what makes the Horde, the Horde, if you want a council go play Alliance. All councils do is draw out the decision making process, lead to stagnation, and inaction. It really isn't hard to see why a dictatorship does the job in Azeroth.

a council with every race would make sure that the next warchief would keep the horde on it's place. the horde exists so that their races can watch each other's backs. when you put a single non-saintly man (or orc) with all the power, he's bound to fall into corruption, choose his buddies and do whatever the hell he wants. that's exactly what happened to garrosh.

Neither Doomhammer nor Ner'zhul were saints, and their versions of the Horde only ended badly because of factors outside of their control, not because of doing something like Garrosh has done.

We all know Sylvanas and Lor'themar will be looking out for their people only, Gallywix will make increasing his fortune his only priority, Ji doesn't have any weight to throw around, Baine has proven to be a horribly indecisive character striving too hard to be his father, sounds like a recipe for disaster.

if there was a council with one orc, one troll, one tauren, one undead and one blood elf with power to remove the warchief from his position, he wouldn't have strayed from his path.

He probably wouldn't have, but you're solving one problem by adding more problems

more than the orcs? yup. considering latest developments, even gnolls deserve more voice in the horde than orcs lol

Except for the fact that the Orcs founded the Horde and helped every race in the Horde get to where they are at today, one tyrant doesn't change the fact that the other races would be much worse off without the orcs.

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That's a bunch of crap. Political shielding... LOL

The Forsaken should Consider themselves lucky since it was the threat of an all out war with the Horde that prevented The Undercity from becoming the Capital of Lordaeron again after Wrathgate.

[zito]

The Forsaken should Consider themselves lucky since it was the threat of an all out war with the Horde that prevented The Undercity from becoming the Capital of Lordaeron again after Wrathgate.

That has nothing to do with orcs specifically or political shielding against the alliance. It has to do with a traitor and the alliance seeing an opportunity retaking lordaeron and the horde (including sylvanus) having to raid the UC to deal with said traitors.

Stay on track buddy.

[checking facts]

That has nothing to do with orcs specifically or political shielding against the alliance. It has to do with a traitor and the alliance seeing an opportunity retaking lordaeron and the horde (including sylvanus) having to raid the UC to deal with said traitors.

Stay on track buddy.

whenever someone calls sylvanas "sylvanus", I start thinking this person thinks too much about her funny hole.

[zito]

whenever someone calls sylvanas "sylvanus", I start thinking this person thinks too much about her funny hole.

I always get the pronunciation wrong :x which affects my spelling.

[kios]

A council before they can build a new warchief candidate, in a book/expansion, sounds reasonable.

[Wildberry]

That has nothing to do with orcs specifically or political shielding against the alliance. It has to do with a traitor and the alliance seeing an opportunity retaking lordaeron and the horde (including sylvanus) having to raid the UC to deal with said traitors.

Stay on track buddy.

Sylvanas was the one Ordering the plague, bro, maybe not in that manner, but plague is plague. If it wasn't for igniting the fourth war, there's no way in hell UC wouldn't have been taken by Varian at that moment. You're welcome.

[Deleted]

The Orcs won't listen to a decentralized leader, they need a single powerful Warchief to look up to. Besides, bureaucracy doesn't make sense on Horde side.

And I can't see it working either, who is going to keep Sylvanas in check when she has just as much to say as the other leaders? Everyone would simply go their own way and there would be even more tension in the Horde. The Horde needs a single leader to keep everything together. Can you honestly see Orcs listening to Blood Elves about what to do? I can't. The Horde works because they need eachother and they all listen to a single leader, if they don't have that then they realize they are too different and they all have different goals.

The only Horde races that haven't had any problems between them are Tauren and Trolls I think. Even Blood Elves and Forsaken have very different goals even though they have been relatively close for a while now.

Anyway, as for the question if I would like to see a council, the answer is no. I don't like that the Alliance gets a High King, which is essentially a copy of the Horde politics, while the Horde turns into the Alliance with their endless bureaucracy. It just doesn't fit the Horde.

[checking facts]

Sylvanas was the one Ordering the plague, bro, maybe not in that manner, but plague is plague. If it wasn't for igniting the fourth war, there's no way in hell UC wouldn't have been taken by Varian at that moment. You're welcome.

they could have put on gas masks, plague the whole city and wait in the middle until all humans die. than they could have come out and collected the corpses to use them in cata

[Wildberry]

they could have put on gas masks, plague the whole city and wait in the middle until all humans die. than they could have come out and collected the corpses to use them in cata

effectively halfing the offensive against the Scourge, I guess Arthas would have been more than happy to reclaim his kingdom though.

[JudgePayne]

Let's look at the many versions of the Horde though

The Orcish Horde: Blackhand as "Warchief", Gul'dan and the Shadow Council actually leading.
The Old Horde: Doomhammer as Warchief
Horde of Draenor: Ner'zhul as Warchief
The New Horde Horde: Thrall as Warchief
Fel Horde: Kargath Bladefist as Warchief
True Horde: Garrosh Hellscream as Warchief

5/6 versions of the Horde had all power in the hands of the Warchief, the only exception still had the common people believing the Warchief held all power. Do you see why this trend is there now?

Also, Councils are for the Alliance, Let's keep the Horde "The Horde", shall we?

I like your list but you are forgetting a huge factor in that these hordes were just 1 race mainly. Orcs.

It is easier to run a group when they are all the same people's and beliefs whereas nowadays the horde is made up of various races all with different lifestyles, needs and wants.

So the only horde with a warchief that really counts is Thralls new horde which failed since thrall would not listen to reason when Carine told him not to make Garrosh Warchief.

Thralls decision lead to Garrosh being in power and thus the death of Carine, the exile of the trolls, the grudge with the forsaken, the hatred of the blood efls and the disrepect of the tauren.

Long story short, Both thrall and Garrosh as warchiefs of a multi-cultural horde failed in the end.
Lets try a council apporach.

[zito]

Sylvanas was the one Ordering the plague, bro, maybe not in that manner, but plague is plague. If it wasn't for igniting the fourth war, there's no way in hell UC wouldn't have been taken by Varian at that moment. You're welcome.

Sylvanas was not the one ordering the plague like that not until cataclsym.

You're welcome bro. Come with with an effective argument on why the forsaken owe the orcs specifically instead of changing the subject of political shielding to traitors in the horde.

[Wildberry]

I like your list but you are forgetting a huge factor in that these hordes were just 1 race mainly. Orcs.

It is easier to run a group when they are all the same people's and beliefs whereas nowadays the horde is made up of various races all with different lifestyles, needs and wants.

So the only horde with a warchief that really counts is Thralls new horde which failed since thrall would not listen to reason when Carine told him not to make Garrosh Warchief.

Thralls decision lead to Garrosh being in power and thus the death of Carine, the exile of the trolls, the grudge with the forsaken, the hatred of the blood efls and the disrepect of the tauren.

Long story short, Both thrall and Garrosh as warchiefs of a multi-cultural horde failed in the end.
Lets try a council apporach.

The Orcish Horde was mainly just Orcs.

Doomhammer's Horde was plenty Diverse:
-Doomhammer Loyalists
-Gul'dan Loyalists
-Most Ogre Clans
-Steemwheadle Cartel
-All Forest Troll Tribes
-The Nation of Alterac at the end of the war.

The Horde of Draenor Had Orcs and Ogres

The New Horde worked well, Thrall not listening to Cairne doesn't mean it failed (Cairne was actually a hotheaded jackass and deserved to die, if he had listened to Thrall and given Garrosh Council it could've been so different)

Multi-Cultural doesn't mean much when the other cultures are a minority compared to the Orcs. Not to mention there's not much to gain from changing up something so Iconic about the Horde.

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Sylvanas was not the one ordering the plague like that not until cataclsym.

You're welcome bro. Come with with an effective argument on why the forsaken owe the orcs specifically instead of changing the subject of political shielding to traitors in the horde.

-Thrall let them in (Hamuul argued for them, but it was Thrall's decision)
-Thrall helped Sylvanas reclaim her damn city since she's too fucking stupid to realize pet Dreadlords are a bad idea.
-Thrall kept Varian from raising a Blue Flag up above the Capital City Ruins
-Thrall allowed Sylvanas to keep her place in the Horde after it was apparent that the Forsaken weren't searching for a cure for their "condition" rather making plague.
-Thrall is an Orc, the Horde is an Orcish Organization

Thanks, but try again brewski.

[JudgePayne]

Multi-Cultural doesn't mean much when the other cultures are a minority compared to the Orcs. Not to mention there's not much to gain from changing up something so Iconic about the Horde.

Not Anymore, I assume after the Seige of Orgrimmar the orcs will no longer be the largest force in the horde, I assume the forsaken will be the largest force. In fact the orcs might not be in the top 3 with regards to total population if you look at the rebel forces verus the Kor'Kron.

If this is the case then the orcs will would/should be put in their place by the other races who are now finally in the majority in terms of population.

[zito]

Thrall let them in (Hamuul argued for them, but it was Thrall's decision)
-Thrall helped Sylvanas reclaim her damn city since she's too fucking stupid to realize pet Dreadlords are a bad idea.
-Thrall kept Varian from raising a Blue Flag up above the Capital City Ruins
-Thrall allowed Sylvanas to keep her place in the Horde after it was apparent that the Forsaken weren't searching for a cure for their "condition" rather making plague.
-Thrall is an Orc, the Horde is an Orcish Organization

Thanks, but try again brewski.

Thrall is a orc not all orcs. Not to mention thrall wasn't the only one helping he was just someone who helped personally and if he did not the horde would suffer a major loss for the entire horde because of a traitor. Sylvanas might owe thrall something but not the orcs in general.

Get your facts straight.

[JudgePayne]

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-Thrall let them in (Hamuul argued for them, but it was Thrall's decision) I would say this was his advisiors descision with his seal of approval
-Thrall helped Sylvanas reclaim her damn city since she's too fucking stupid to realize pet Dreadlords are a bad idea. Because he knew that losing one of their major footholds would be terrible
-Thrall kept Varian from raising a Blue Flag up above the Capital City Ruins. Jaina did that actually
-Thrall allowed Sylvanas to keep her place in the Horde after it was apparent that the Forsaken weren't searching for a cure for their "condition" rather making plague. Her place in the horde was never questioned due to her actions in northrend and in service to the horde.
-Thrall is an Orc, the Horde is an Orcish Organization. Not anymore buddy those days seem numbered

Thanks, but try again brewski.

your move sir.

[Deleted]

Orc: Thrall <The World Shaman>
Troll: Vol'Jin <Chieftain of the Darkspear>
Tauren: Baine Bloodhoof <Chieftain of the Tauren>
Forsaken: Sylvanas Windrunner <Queen of the Forsaken>
Blood Elves: Lor'Themar Theron <King of the Blood Elves>
Goblins: Meggs Dreadshredder <Operative Leader of the Bilgewater Company>
Pandaren: Ji Firepaw <Representative of the Huojin Pandaren>

here's your council.

[Wildberry]

Thrall is a orc not all orcs. Not to mention thrall wasn't the only one helping he was just someone who helped personally and if he did not the horde would suffer a major loss for the entire horde because of a traitor. Sylvanas might owe thrall something but not the orcs in general.

Get your facts straight.

Thrall was the leader of the Orcs at the time, there certainly wasn't a rebellion questioning his legitimacy either, therefore I think we can safely assume he represented the Orcs.

Sorry but you're grasping at straws here with arguments like that.

your move sir.

-His advisors couldn't make decisions, they could only advise, it rest completely upon Thrall as to whether or not the Forsaken were allowed to be part of the Horde.
-Losing a foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms would have hurt the Horde, absolutely. Losing the Undercity and being driven to extinction would have hurt the Forsaken much more though.
-Jaina teleported Varian out, it was because the Forsaken were members of the Horde and just as much Thrall's diplomatic tendencies as it was Jaina's that Varian did not make good on his threats.
-Before she had a place in the Horde, the "work" of the Royal Apothecary Society served as an argument for Forsaken in the Horde.
-Really, give me concrete proof that the Orcs will no longer be the majority in the Horde post SoO. Where has Blizzard specifically stated that The Horde is taking a more multi-cultural route? There is a difference between "days seeming numbered" and days "being numbered". If you would like to use the argument of "What Orcs will be left?". First that's a weak argument, second, look at the losses the Humans suffered in Northrend (From the Shattering), They were still the driving force behind the Alliance, weren't they?