Anyone else really hate the fact they're removing Burden of Guilt?

[Damdwarf]

Just switch to Seal of Justice... Much better Having Hammer of Justice or a New Fear as a talent other than another slow, you can just switch seals.

[Morally Grey Storm]

bet you complained about not having a gap closer during wotlk

does this somehow make my point less relevant?

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Just switch to Seal of Justice... Much better Having Hammer of Justice or a New Fear as a talent other than another slow, you can just switch seals.

Fun fact: Ret is the only spec that has SoJ (in addition judgement does not apply SoJ so they must get into melee range to even apply the slow).

If they do go through with this absurd change I'm going to play without a lvl 30 talent because they are going to be worthless for me.

[Deleted]

Just switch to Seal of Justice... Much better Having Hammer of Justice or a New Fear as a talent other than another slow, you can just switch seals.

...and waste lots of GCD's on retarded seal switching, while every other melee class has actually useful snares - some of them even applied passively?

[Vathius]

I only ever used it in duels with warriors. fist was always far more superior.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I only ever used it in duels with warriors. fist was always far more superior.

of course it was, but now, Fist will not only be superior choice, but the ONLY choice, which means - no choice at all.

[Nairobi]

of course it was, but now, Fist will not only be superior choice, but the ONLY choice, which means - no choice at all.

Pretty much this. It removes all choice, on yet another tier, for no real benefit outside of "buff Holy rep at higher ratings". Now, I'm all for supporting our Holy bro's, but we've seen countless core Ret abilities butchered, nerfed, and flat out deleted in the name of balance "because Holy".

I use BoG a lot in BGs/wPVP, since it basically gives you free reign to kite all day. I use it in some 2s comps/counter-comps, but FoJ is largely superior. I also use BoG a lot in PVE situations for kiting purposes. Now, I get Fist, and Repentence 2.0 or Repentance 2.1. GG. Let me just stop chasing/swinging and cast thi- oh damn, Holy locked...

Would like to see SoJ's proc cast on Judgement, and I'd be thrilled, even if it was "only on characters 20+ yards away" or something.

[Morally Grey Storm]

yeah... the whole point of talent system is so we can choose between 3 equally tasty apples each tier: 1 yellow, 1 green and 1 red.
As it stands now, Ret will be compelled to "choose" between two rotten apples and the one that is fresh for now, speaking of T30.

Which means, the whole talent system failed, if you take into consideration all of the other paladin' tiers in regards to specs that are NOT Holy.

The choices must be equally insipiring, interesting and viable.
But well, we get what we get.

[Nairobi]

yeah... the whole point of talent system is so we can choose between 3 equally tasty apples each tier: 1 yellow, 1 green and 1 red.
As it stands now, Ret will be compelled to "choose" between two rotten apples and the one that is fresh for now, speaking of T30.

Which means, the whole talent system failed, if you take into consideration all of the other paladin' tiers in regards to specs that are NOT Holy.

The choices must be equally insipiring, interesting and viable.
But well, we get what we get.

Let's look at those apples, for Ret anyway (mainly PVP focused)

t15 - LAotL is close to mandatory. Honorable mention to SOL as a distant 2nd.
t30 - FOJ only.
t45 - SH only.
t60 - Clemency only.
t75 - HA pretty much dominates, but some prefer SW and even fewer run DP.
t90 - HPrism only (PVP).

So, for the PVP Ret out there, you get about half of one choice across 18 "options", being the t75 talent if you wish to buck HA for something a bit more "sustained". PVE ret can maybe make cases to run SOL > LAotL, SS > SH, and obv ES > LH > Prism, but even then you're only getting a few "situational" choices that are pretty damn clear cut.

At least we save money on tomes.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Let's look at those apples, for Ret anyway (mainly PVP focused)

t15 - LAotL is close to mandatory. Honorable mention to SOL as a distant 2nd.
t30 - FOJ only.
t45 - SH only.
t60 - Clemency only.
t75 - HA pretty much dominates, but some prefer SW and even fewer run DP.
t90 - HPrism only (PVP).

So, for the PVP Ret out there, you get about half of one choice across 18 "options", being the t75 talent if you wish to buck HA for something a bit more "sustained". PVE ret can maybe make cases to run SOL > LAotL, SS > SH, and obv ES > LH > Prism, but even then you're only getting a few "situational" choices that are pretty damn clear cut.

At least we save money on tomes.

yeah, except 1 point: T15.
LAotL is not "close " to mandatory, its the only viable option.
Which still does not mean its good or realiable, just viable compared to 2 other completely fail talents.

I mean, look at the other two.

Speed of Light has a long, way to long cooldown for a measly sprint.
I dare anyone saying that Ret with its massive toolkit can be played totally competitevely, to try and fight any kite-based class\spec with SoL as your T15 choice.
You will suffer well enough to get my point, I can bet on that.

Pursuit oj Justice? The one that boldly increases your runspeed by 15% ? Look me in the eye and say its a viable pvp choice.
oh, PoJ also increases your runspeed by an additional 5% for each HoPo capped at +additional 15%, well guess what, if you are sitting on HoPo, then you are not dishing out damage or healing, and as far as I remember, Ret has only 2 on demand ranged attacks that give HoPo, one of which has a whopping 15 sec cd, so you dont even build said bonus runspeed that easily and reliably.

Whereas a Warrior will simply charge, a DK will simply DGrip his target,a rogue - sprint/out-stealth you/Shadowstep, a shaman- slow/root you and ghostwolf with +60% runspeed, a druid will charge or dash, a monk will chi torpedo/tea torpedo/mana torpedo whatever the frag torpedo - the Ret will... run 15% faster....

Does it even?..

[Ealyssa]

BoG is pretty much useless actually. If you need it for PVP you are doing something wrong. (hint hint : giving up 30s hard stun or repetance for a snare is BAD for every single comp ret/holy are decent in)

[Morally Grey Storm]

BoG is pretty much useless actually. If you need it for PVP you are doing something wrong. (hint hint : giving up 30s hard stun or repetance for a snare is BAD for every single comp ret/holy are decent in)

why dont you just... read the topic before responding?.

[Ealyssa]

why dont you just... read the topic before responding?.

1)Crying against a great change for paladin, from a useless talent, to a new one wich open new PVP synergy ?
Check
2)Thread focused on PVP ?
Check

That you do not agree with me doesn't make me wrong, sorry to burst your bubble. (and actually talking about T15 talent, on a BoG thread... Maybe you didn't read OP and just rushed to the last post ??? Amiright ?)

[Revvo]

---

Whereas a Warrior will simply charge, a DK will simply DGrip his target,a rogue - sprint/out-stealth you/Shadowstep, a shaman- slow/root you and ghostwolf with +60% runspeed, a druid will charge or dash, a monk will chi torpedo/tea torpedo/mana torpedo whatever the frag torpedo - the Ret will... run 15% faster....

Does it even?..

I think it's cute that you tried to make it seem like shamans have better mobility than ret.

[Morally Grey Storm]

1)Crying against a great change for paladin, from a useless talent, to a new one wich open new PVP synergy ?
Check
2)Thread focused on PVP ?
Check

That you do not agree with me doesn't make me wrong, sorry to burst your bubble.

1) reading diagonally across the thread?
check

2) Thread focusing on pvp?
check

I fail to recall stating my disagreement with you.
I just pointed out, that you might wish to actually read the fething topic before spouting your oh so very Valid and True Opinion.
Sorry for not giving a flying frag.

- - - Updated - - -

---

I think it's cute that you tried to make it seem like shamans have better mobility than ret.

I think it's not cute how you misplaced "Mobility" with "Gap Closing".

Do you not even realise that a a talent in a tier dedicated to gap closing just makes you run faster by 15% ?
Does it even warrant a talent point?

[Revvo]

1) reading diagonally across the thread?
check

2) Thread focusing on pvp?
check

I fail to recall stating my disagreement with you.
I just pointed out, that you might wish to actually read the fething topic before spouting your oh so very Valid and True Opinion.
Sorry for not giving a flying frag.

- - - Updated - - -


I think it's not cute how you misplaced "Mobility" with "Gap Closing".

Do you not even realise that a a talent in a tier dedicated to gap closing just makes you run faster by 15% ?
Does it even warrant a talent point?

There's a reason no one uses it. I'm not sure why you complain, between freedom, emancipate and LoTL, I have no problem keeping 90% uptime on any target. Honestly, it's harder to get on people on my warrior because sure I can charge, but slow me or root me and I'm useless. Not to mention charge pathing sucks half the time, leaving you too short to put a hamstring up because you're out of melee range.

[Morally Grey Storm]

There's a reason no one uses it.

asmuch there's a reason I'm arguing and discussing and pointing at obvious flaws so people can take off the rose tinted glasses and realise: "hey, this talent tree sucks a giant douche for Ret and prot"

I'm not sure why you complain

I think it's cute how you brand a legal discussion "complaining"

[Krekko]

Fun fact: Ret is the only spec that has SoJ (in addition judgement does not apply SoJ so they must get into melee range to even apply the slow).

If they do go through with this absurd change I'm going to play without a lvl 30 talent because they are going to be worthless for me.

Yes, Ret is the only spec that has SoJ, it's apart of our spec toolkit. Prot and Holy have things that Ret does not.

I'd pay to see you go without a level 30 talent, though.

While you might not be getting what you want, it sure isn't useless. Fist of Justice, Repentance, and the new Turn Evil will find use in their own ways.

[Revvo]

asmuch there's a reason I'm arguing and discussing and pointing at obvious flaws so people can take off the rose tinted glasses and realise: "hey, this talent tree sucks a giant douche for Ret and prot"


I think it's cute how you brand a legal discussion "complaining"

It's like that for a lot of classes though. There will almost always be a "cookie cutter spec" no matter what bliz does to try to change that.

[Morally Grey Storm]

It's like that for a lot of classes though. There will almost always be a "cookie cutter spec" no matter what bliz does to try to change that.

problem is not with the cookie cutter, problem is with literal lack of choice for ret and prot.