Future of Dalaran?

[Jessicka]

exactly, where the horde spies are just that..individual spies that did things without the knowledge or consent of the other sunreavers, the first break of neutrality in favor of the alliance was a UNANIMOUS DECISION by the entire leading council of dalaran. I still don't get how a group that has dedicated itself to a neutral stance can have leaders so stupid that they don't notice when they're abandoning that by actively aiding one side against the other and feel like the outrage against the sunreavers would be more understandable (not justifiable because again it's 2 spies that did these betrayals not the entire group) if not for the terrible logic shown by the others.

I don't think it would have been possible for them to have all been oblivious to the Horde's intention. There were some who clearly harboured and supported them, but as a unit they refused to cooperate in any kind of investigation or assistance. They made themselves wholly complicit, and left Jaina with no choice but to clean shop.

as for modera...they really don't have to fully agree with the decision in order to support their group after its been dedicated to a course of action, there's a big difference between being angry and dropping all support in outrage.

Fair point, but we really don't know enough about Modera specifically, at all to know how she stood on the matter. We know she's actively fighting Sunreavers now, so she can't be that outraged.

One can only assume any misgivings are overidden by Krasus's prophecy that Jaina would ultimately come good.

[razorfire]

I don't think it would have been possible for them to have all been oblivious to the Horde's intention. There were some who clearly harboured and supported them, but as a unit they refused to cooperate in any kind of investigation or assistance. They made themselves wholly complicit, and left Jaina with no choice but to clean shop.

as I recall aethas simply tries to talk jaina out of her instant demand that the sunreavers all leave what has been their home for YEARS and it gets taken as hostility causing him to be detained..your leader is captured trying to talk someone out of something and that same person that captured them suddenly shows up using a group that you actively KNOW hates you to kill or detain you for either wanting to keep your home or trying to leave.. the only thing that could possibly be done in their favor at that point is the rescue by romath from the horde side quests but until then it's pretty much a railroaded "you're guilty, I know you're guilty cause I said so, now I'm giving you no choice but to look even more guilty to me or abandon absolutely everything you've worked for alongside us"

[Combatbutler]

Kalecgos is now a member of the Kirin Tor, so yeah they have a former Aspect of Magic amongst their ranks...

And does that make them the most powerful mortal magi on the planet? No it does not, there are still so many dragon magi out there, they could tear Dalaran apart if they wanted to. Having Kalecgos there doesn't change that, not to mention he is back to his regular self, who was beaten up by a high elf and a dreadlord.

[The One Percent]

As long as the Horde gets a hub in Northrend with all the same amenities and close to the center of Northrend as Dalaran, the Alliance can have the shitty city.

[Jessicka]

And does that make them the most powerful mortal magi on the planet? No it does not, there are still so many dragon magi out there, they could tear Dalaran apart if they wanted to. Having Kalecgos there doesn't change that, not to mention he is back to his regular self, who was beaten up by a high elf and a dreadlord.

And some of the best Blue Dragon magi got their asses handed to them by some mysterious Horde **Cough** Sunreavers **Cough** Magi and Warlocks. Being dragon =! omnipotent user of magic.

[razorfire]

And some of the best Blue Dragon magi got their asses handed to them by some mysterious Horde **Cough** Sunreavers **Cough** Magi and Warlocks. Being dragon =! omnipotent user of magic.

there ARE magic users outside the kirin tor you know, heck jaina was an independant mage between warcraft 3 and tides of war. assuming horde mage instantly means sunreaver is a bit close minded.

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And does that make them the most powerful mortal magi on the planet? No it does not, there are still so many dragon magi out there, they could tear Dalaran apart if they wanted to. Having Kalecgos there doesn't change that, not to mention he is back to his regular self, who was beaten up by a high elf and a dreadlord.

..I kind of lost track of how many times kalecgos shows up in a story just to wind up being a plot device to get beaten up so some other character can be more important in comparison to a dragon.

[Jessicka]

there ARE magic users outside the kirin tor you know, heck jaina was an independant mage between warcraft 3 and tides of war. assuming horde mage instantly means sunreaver is a bit close minded.

True, but incredible how many people just flat out refuse to accept it's a possibility.

[Combatbutler]

And some of the best Blue Dragon magi got their asses handed to them by some mysterious Horde **Cough** Sunreavers **Cough** Magi and Warlocks. Being dragon =! omnipotent user of magic.

That doesn't change the fact, that the kirin Tor are not the epitome of arcane power, there are many faction outside of the Kirin tor, not to mention the only reason Dalaran survived the nexus war was because all the other Dragonflights battled the blues.

[razorfire]

True, but incredible how many people just flat out refuse to accept it's a possibility.

not saying it isn't possible, just saying the only sunreavers blizzard has actively shown to be responsible for any of this are the 2 spies that actively worked for garrosh over the sunreavers. the majority seemed completely unaware until suddenly they were being imprisoned for the actions of 2 people. it just feels a lot like the southern barrens quest really, each faction's version is dedicated to making the other faction look like murderers.

really the dalaran purge situation as a whole seems kinda...dumb to me really. the logic blizz used to make it happen seems faulty (I've pretty much repeatedly pointed out the breaks in neutrality from kirin tor only to have the ones met with outrage be when a spy in the sunreavers does something similarly wrong AFTER)..it could've been handled way better in a way where it might actually feel dramatic and interesting but to me it wound up just making jaina look absolutely insane and kirin tor seem petty.

[Scummer]

really the dalaran purge situation as a whole seems kinda...dumb to me really.

I thought it was pretty well done tbh. It was a grey moment that showed this for both sides where both lost and gained something.
The only part of it though that I thought was dumb was the part where Varian berates her after he reveals that he'd been working with the Blood Elves. Why he hadn't told her before is very much a mystery to me and it felt forced so that Varian could go all High King on Jaina.

it could've been handled way better in a way where it might actually feel dramatic and interesting but to me it wound up just making jaina look absolutely insane and kirin tor seem petty.

It actually was supposed to show them as desperate and fearful in particular Jaina. I think people went out of their way to black wash it and forget that Jaina's actions while harsh and quick were out of fear for what she had experienced at Theramore from the same people and not out of some insane "Horde must die!" attitude that people force upon her.
In the end one side felt threatened by the other and caused the other to feel the same.

[Talen]

individual spies that did things without the knowledge or consent of the other sunreavers

Which ultimately changed nothing. The Sunreavers had dragged the city into a conflict it didn't want.

the first break of neutrality in favor of the alliance was a UNANIMOUS DECISION by the entire leading council of dalaran.

Regardless of how you see it, the point here is that the defence of Theramore WAS a decision by the Council. The Silver covenant didn't decide to do it. The Council did. That was their right. It was not and never was the Sunreavers place to decide whether Dalaran should abandon or modify its stance of neutrality.

EJL

[Verdugo]

Regardless of how you see it, the point here is that the defence of Theramore WAS a decision by the Council. The Silver covenant didn't decide to do it. The Council did. That was their right. It was not and never was the Sunreavers place to decide whether Dalaran should abandon or modify its stance of neutrality.

Then why is Jaina outraged at the supposed neutrality breaking when Dalaran broke neutrality not once but TWICE before that.

[Aquamonkey]

The council agreed unanimously to defend Theramore from Horde aggression. Aethas was amongst the council at that point - the contention is whether Aethas knew of the Horde's plans and agreed to let the Kirin Tor assist on the basis that it would ultimately be useful to the Horde in that it would help set them up for a coup in Dalaran if you consider what would have resulted if Vareesa and Jaina had also died in Theramore as planned.

It was not a unanimous decision to defend Theramore. You are making up a lot of fanon.
“You are a very persuasive woman, Lady,” said Rhonin. “While the Kirin Tor feels very strongly that we should remain impartial, your plea moved us to action. Even Aethas Sunreaver voted in favor of rendering aid. It seems that to not assist you against such tremendous opposition would be to tacitly support the Horde. At least, that’s the logic he used.”
--Tides of War

“It was my lord Aethas who cast the deciding vote.” --Songweaver, Tides of War

Aethas supported Jaina to become the new leader of the Kirin Tor.
“Not just on this. You’ve always been strong, my lady. In your power, and in your character,” said Aethas Sunreaver unexpectedly. “Even when tested and tried. And when you faced both an unimaginable horror and an inconceivable temptation—and were perhaps yourself tainted by the effects of the mana bomb—you still chose a path that was fair and just, rather than vengeful and dark. It is, you must admit, unlikely that anything else will ever tempt you so again. And I do not think there stands among us anyone who, were he or she in your place, could have done better. Indeed… we might not have done even half so well.”
--Tides of War

Aethas during 5.1 questline: "Silvermoon has been allies with Dalaran for over 2000 years. It is not a friendship we should toss idly aside at the whim of our "esteemed" Warchief Garrosh."
Under Sha influence, revealing his true feelings: "The sin'dorei must be free from the yoke of the Horde!"

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Which ultimately changed nothing. The Sunreavers had dragged the city into a conflict it didn't want.

Because smuggling goods through a neutral port is totally the same as sending military aid...

[Northem]

Both the Kirin Tor and Dalaran have always been a cornerstone of the Alliance, leaving aside the stupid idea of Rhonin about the neutrality ...

Dalaran has always been and will be a city of the Alliance, and any dirty member of the Horde will never tread the Kingdom of Dalaran unpunished, especially those traitors Blood Elves ... we must kill them all!

[Aquamonkey]

Both the Kirin Tor and Dalaran have always been a cornerstone of the Alliance, leaving aside the stupid idea of Rhonin about the neutrality ...

Dalaran has always been and will be a city of the Alliance, and any dirty member of the Horde will never tread the Kingdom of Dalaran unpunished, especially those traitors Blood Elves ... we must kill them all!

You realize that Dalaran existed for almost 2000 years before the Alliance? That whole time, they were allied with Quel'Thalas which is now part of the Horde. Dalaran should be a Horde city.

[Faroth]

Neutral Dalaran will remain in Northrend.

Alliance supporting Dalaran, I'm betting, never appears in the game.

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You realize that Dalaran existed for almost 2000 years before the Alliance? That whole time, they were allied with Quel'Thalas which is now part of the Horde. Dalaran should be a Horde city.

Because all those Horde "kill Kirin Tor" quests in Classic would continue to endear the Horde to them, right?

[Aquamonkey]

Because all those Horde "kill Kirin Tor" quests in Classic would continue to endear the Horde to them, right?

Well, Quel'Thalas wasn't part of the Horde at the time. Certainly they can bury the hatchet after TBC. England and France are like BFF now after having been at war with each other for much longer than the Horde and the Kirin Tor.

[Faroth]

Well, Quel'Thalas wasn't part of the Horde at the time. Certainly they can bury the hatchet after TBC. England and France are like BFF now after having been at war with each other for much longer than the Horde and the Kirin Tor.

Yet the Horde still claim Garithos is overwhelming evidence of Alliance bigotry and irrefutable defense that the blood elves are allied with the Horde and would have not made sense to reunite with the Alliance.

I dunno. Azeroth denizens seem to hold grudges....hardcore.

[Aquamonkey]

Yet the Horde still claim Garithos is overwhelming evidence of Alliance bigotry and irrefutable defense that the blood elves are allied with the Horde and would have not made sense to reunite with the Alliance.

I dunno. Azeroth denizens seem to hold grudges....hardcore.

It wasn't just that, the Alliance infiltrated and actively sabotaged the Blood Elves after the 3rd War under the guise of peace emissaries. Sylvanas went there with a genuine offer of aid and then brought them into the Horde.

The Blood Elves were willing to look past that stuff and rejoin the Alliance before Jaina went apeshit.

[Florena]

It's pretty much implied that the Alliance controls Gilneas via the Silverpine story line, and that the Forsaken are still attacking despite the ceasefire. The Battle for Gilneas battleground represents the Forsaken trying to re-open the coastal front after the entire Forsaken Fleet blockading Gilneas got sunk by a single submarine. The border is drawn at the Greymane Wall.

The 7th Legion hasn't been completely wiped out, either, since Halford Wyrmbane was shown on board the Submarine, and the Alliance had retreated from Silverpine over getting destroyed.

Sylvanas will go super villain eventually, probably after we kill the last Old God/defeat the Legion/etc.

And Stromgarde's story is in limbo, too. Danath needs to come back and bury his family.

The rogue legendary quest chain leaves its fate ambiguous. A dragon rallied some gilneans and managed to take the city, presumably from the forsaken, and the quest never addresses whether they're able to continue holding it from the Forsaken after the dragon is slain by you.