Prot Nerfs

[abijax]

You don't like that dodge and parry were devalued, and then complain that they re-value them?

You're a tank, you're supposed to like tank stats. If not you should be playing DPS.

So why aren't dodge and parry buffed survivability or utility wise? If we're supposed to like tank stats why the re-value is switching dps from haste to dodge/parry?

[Aceshigh]

So why aren't dodge and parry buffed survivability or utility wise? If we're supposed to like tank stats why the re-value is switching dps from haste to dodge/parry?

Exactly. The reason they're not is because if you stack full avoidance it will give you the least damage taken overall on average (not sure if the math still says that, but in the past that's ALWAYS been how it was, least damage taken but most unpredictable and therefore not very valuable). It's not that they're terrible it's that they are unpredictable and therefore unattractive. They are uninteresting not to mention they go completely against the active mitigation model Blizzard is pushing (and say they like).

[Tonk]

If the paladin tank is the most injured raid member, do we get the heal?

[Deja Thoris]

I'd like to hear their logic behind these changes. It seems to me they see a class in a good spot that people like playing and decide to mess it up a bit. Why not just tweak whatever is messed up with warriors / *insert tank class here*

BH I don't care about, its healing is never make or break but I can't quite wrap my head around the mana one. Part of the reason I play a pala is I dislike having to babysit resources as a tank. If I wanted to manage rage / runes I'd roll one of the other classes.

[Aceshigh]

I'd like to hear their logic behind these changes. It seems to me they see a class in a good spot that people like playing and decide to mess it up a bit. Why not just tweak whatever is messed up with warriors / *insert tank class here*

BH I don't care about, its healing is never make or break but I can't quite wrap my head around the mana one. Part of the reason I play a pala is I dislike having to babysit resources as a tank. If I wanted to manage rage / runes I'd roll one of the other classes.

The thing is, Holy power is our resource management. The gap between an average prot paladin (someone who just dumps HP) versus a great one (precision timing of HP use) is pretty massive. It's more than that though, we don't even get to manage mana as a resource if SOI never gives it back. All this means is that eventually we'l have to stop hitting buttons and just auto attack even if we have stuff that is off cooldown. That just SCREAMS lazy to me and there is no way they'll let this hit live.

[Ferocity]

Exactly. The reason they're not is because if you stack full avoidance it will give you the least damage taken overall on average (not sure if the math still says that, but in the past that's ALWAYS been how it was, least damage taken but most unpredictable and therefore not very valuable). It's not that they're terrible it's that they are unpredictable and therefore unattractive. Not to mention they go completely against the active mitigation model Blizzard is pushing (and say they like).

Nothing was really added to make active mitigation system. ShotR can be called as rather interrupt against bosses when they are about to do their nukes. Outside of those nukes (Sha's Thrash, Jin'rokh's small windows of debuff-tanking, Horridon's Puncture, Tortos's bite, etc.), which were made around those "interrupts", bosses don't pose that much threat damage-wise. And timers between those nukes were made with enough window, so you can gain 3 holy power with 0 haste and with occasional miss/dodge/parry.

On top of that, you can't compare Monk's benefits from haste (faster energy regen) and druid relying on mastery/crit (which he did most of time, and leather with defense/dodge was something barely existing). Haste affecting only 2 gcd's is a subject of latency and makes rotation more of a mess. If you gain 2% more haste, you won't start magically do 2% more holy power generation as it will be mostly neutralized by 1.5 sec gcd of other cd abilities. Haste reliably affects only Sacred Shield, but return is quite small. Haste is only forgiving, because of current raid mechanics, where bosses don't pose much threat outside interrupt-based nukes and where you can sit to take crits in face for more vengeance and do more stupid stuff like that to take more damage.

P.S.: I am not against active mitigation system if it is introduced well. Like Barriers in Allods Online (though that system has changed a lot now probably, I didn't check AO for years), which is the only system which can be called by some awkward term "active mitigation". But you can't call what's happening on tanking scene in-game atm as any kind of mitigation at all. If anything, it is some mess based on dps's approach with focus on taking as much damage as possible without dying.

[announced]

if their doing this it'd be nice to change AS to be able to hit a max of 6 targets instead of 3 per bounce.. i can imagine raping mobs like no tmr.. atm GC change sucks ass.

[Aceshigh]

Nothing was really added to make active mitigation system. ShotR can be called as rather interrupt against bosses when they are about to do their nukes. Outside of those nukes (Sha's Thrash, Jin'rokh's small windows of debuff-tanking, Horridon's Puncture, Tortos's bite, etc.), which were made around those "interrupts", bosses don't pose that much threat damage-wise. And timers between those nukes were made with enough window, so you can gain 3 holy power with 0 haste and with occasional miss/dodge/parry.

On top of that, you can't compare Monk's benefits from haste (faster energy regen) and druid relying on mastery/crit (which he did most of time, and leather with defense/dodge was something barely existing). Haste affecting only 2 gcd's is a subject of latency and makes rotation more of a mess. If you gain 2% more haste, you won't start magically do 2% more holy power generation as it will be mostly neutralized by 1.5 sec gcd of other cd abilities. Haste reliably affects only Sacred Shield, but return is quite small. Haste is only forgiving, because of current raid mechanics, where bosses don't pose much threat outside interrupt-based nukes and where you can sit to take crits in face for more vengeance and do more stupid stuff like that to take more damage.

P.S.: I am not against active mitigation system if it is introduced well. Like Barriers in Allods Online (though that system has changed a lot now probably, I didn't check AO for years), which is the only system which can be called by some awkward term "active mitigation". But you can't call what's happening on tanking scene in-game atm as any kind of mitigation at all. If anything, it is some mess based on dps's approach with focus on taking as much damage as possible without dying.

I'm just saying the reason they don't buff dodge/parry or give it added utility is because right now the math shows it's isnt bad OVERALL, it just doesn't work well in practice and hasn't for a long time (long before mop). They've become increasingly uninteresting as every single patch in this game has gone by and they've become increasingly out of place.

[Kethmil]

What if precisely is that what they want? Us to go oom if we stack haste to current levels. They could be forcing us dropping on haste and increase or avoidance.

I ran oom in like 1 minute while hitting dummy with truth, ~17k haste.

Sad panda

[Deleted]

On top of that, you can't compare Monk's benefits from haste (faster energy regen) and druid relying on mastery/crit (which he did most of time, and leather with defense/dodge was something barely existing). Haste affecting only 2 gcd's is a subject of latency and makes rotation more of a mess. If you gain 2% more haste, you won't start magically do 2% more holy power generation as it will be mostly neutralized by 1.5 sec gcd of other cd abilities. Haste reliably affects only Sacred Shield, but return is quite small. Haste is only forgiving, because of current raid mechanics, where bosses don't pose much threat outside interrupt-based nukes and where you can sit to take crits in face for more vengeance and do more stupid stuff like that to take more damage.

You... don't play a prot paladin, right?
Through SoB, haste affects way more than 2 gcd.
It affects every single thing except the lvl 90 talents.

2% more haste gives almost exactly 2% more HP.

[Aceshigh]

What if precisely is that what they want? Us to go oom if we stack haste to current levels. They could be forcing us dropping on haste and increase or avoidance.

I ran oom in like 1 minute while hitting dummy with truth, ~17k haste.

Sad panda

That is what I assume they're testing out here, but I don't see how they can let this go live, at all. I'd be shocked/sad/pissed all at the same time if they did. The only thing I can say for certain is I won't be playing prot any longer if they completley kill haste. I'll go ret or switch to my Monk tank. Prot without haste isn't something I enjoy, even a little bit.

[Terridon]

Don't see much of a problem.
The heal to the most wounded one is pretty nice actually if you're not just some ego-tank as OP :P
Doubt i'm going to change my stats. Just getting a bit less holy power, that will be gained from the set-bonus instead.

Highly doubt they want us to go oom, since it's only a few days ago they said they was pretty satisfied with where prot pala is.

[Deleted]

How can something that targets the lowest HP character overheal? Except insofar as it overhealed already.



You don't like that dodge and parry were devalued, and then complain that they re-value them?

You're a tank, you're supposed to like tank stats. If not you should be playing DPS.

- - - Updated - - -



If the rotation is so shit without a full haste build then the rotation needs to be redesigned. Tanks ignoring tank stats and stacking a DPS stat is silly. It's okay if haste is useful, but when it's optimal that's just dumb.

Why ? I think its great when Tanks can choose if they want more Haste or more Avoidance

[Kaeth]

What if precisely is that what they want? Us to go oom if we stack haste to current levels. They could be forcing us dropping on haste and increase or avoidance.

I ran oom in like 1 minute while hitting dummy with truth, ~17k haste.

And you'll still go OOM in 2 to 3 minutes at zero haste. I can't believe that the SoI change is a deliberate nerf to haste gearing. Looks like more of a pointless and unnecessary nerf to Holy, which is in need of massive buffs on PTR right now.

If the rotation is so shit without a full haste build then the rotation needs to be redesigned. Tanks ignoring tank stats and stacking a DPS stat is silly. It's okay if haste is useful, but when it's optimal that's just dumb.

There's a problem of semantics here. In MoP, haste is a "tank stat" for paladins just as crit is a "tank stat" for monks. Dodge and parry are garbage for keeping tanks alive through what matters in this expansion -- predictable burst damage -- despite looking potentially useful on paper for reducing overall damage taken.

You don't like that dodge and parry were devalued, and then complain that they re-value them?

You're a tank, you're supposed to like tank stats. If not you should be playing DPS.

The Grand Crusader change doesn't "re-value" dodge and parry for boss tanking. It's great for AoE tanking at best. Gaming an unreliable 30% (of D+P, so less than 20% overall) proc for 1 HoPo every so often while tanking a boss isn't going to improve your SotR uptime over stacking haste. Not consistently, anyway.

I do like tank stats. They just happen to be hit, expertise, haste, and mastery.

[Danifilth]

And this is why i want recount removed from the game or the nerfs are going to happen every week.

[Deleted]

And this is why i want recount removed from the game or the nerfs are going to happen every week.

I can't see this being the result of recount because monk does even more damage. They said they will buff other tanks damage and not nerf paladin or monk (except for vengeance point of view).

EDIT: And already did by Riposte for Warrior and DK.

[Zantos]

Like others have said, if they don't put in something else for our mana, kiss paladin tanks good by. No one will bring a tank that within 2-3mins is going to be completely useless. "Oh, paladin tanks oom again, everyone slow down dps while he waits for his mana to regen a bit or you will rip aggro.". "Oh, you couldn't build holy power to use shield of the righteous on that huge predictable damage spike so you got insta killed? Need more spirit."

Seriously, if they don't buff our mana and we really will go oom, I'll just quit. I love prot paladins. Not going to be forced into a reroll after all my hard work on them because we are now the least desired tanks because by the 3min mark we can't use a single ability.

[Deleted]

BH changed - not bothered, rarely used it in 25 man anyhoos
im sure that blizz wont intend us to go oom so this will get fixed imo
GC change is a bit meh, but not game breaking

[Noradin]

Druids don't give a shit about dodge gear anymore. Druids and Monks both take agility and crit as their best stats and before crit with monks it was haste. I don't understand how it's dumb.

There is even crit on one of the legendary tanking cloaks, istn't there?
So how can anyone say tanks aren't intended to use classic dps stats now?

[Nillo]

There is even crit on one of the legendary tanking cloaks, istn't there?
So how can anyone say tanks aren't intended to use classic dps stats now?

Because the very same cloak also has dodge rather than haste or expertise.
Same as some of the monk/guardian specific tank items with dodge.

The thing is we are intended to use the new dps/tank stats but the devs still feel the need to force tanks into using shitty avoidance stats that haven't be useful since the introduction of diminishing returns by the end of bc...