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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    If it didn't add value for some people it wouldn't sell. If Blizzard didn't think it would sell, and given the requests they have had for such a feature, I am sure it will sell.
    Allowing people to skip content devalues it, I have not seen a single request to allow people to skip content by paying an additional fee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Yeah, I once heard these insane claims about a man 7 meters tall. Let's assume he was only 6 meters tall....
    Is there a point to this silly remark? Perhaps if you think I am wrong you could get some figures from Bliizzard P&L statements?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Would you be happier if this feature was offered for free?
    I would prefer that there were enough different ways to level and that it was not overly long and boring that this item was not needed, but given that would be extremely difficult to do if this item is going to be available I would prefer that it was for in game currency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    How does adding this particular feature affect their ability to spend money to make "interesting content"? If anything it should result in more money being available to make interesting content. Or are you trying to imply that Blizzard are spending that 80% of profit making this particular feature simply so that they can make more profit?

    Honestly, that just makes no sense. What makes a lot more sense:

    People (particularly in Asia) have been requesting the ability to buy xp boosts for real money.
    Blizzard are simply giving them what they asked for.
    If Blizzard cannot make content that is interesting enough that people do not want to skip it already I doubt the income from this item is going to change that.

    From what I have read the Asian gaming population is a lot more transient than Western gamers as they can move from game to game without incurring the costs associated with buying a new game why would they ask to pay extra to skip content rather than moving to another game that offers content they actually want to play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Who says they are expecting people to pay? They are giving people a choice. A choice they are asking for. If Blizzard thought that most people would rather just skip the "boring bits" surely they would simply remove those bits from the game.
    They are making a paid for item and then not expecting people to buy? Gotcha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Maybe. Or maybe they are doing the best they can already. Either way I don't see how adding this particular feature affects that particular argument one way or another.

    Basically what you are saying is that, for you, it's not about the feature per se, but that you believe the addition of this feature proves that Blizzard are producing bad content. Which it, of course, does not.
    We had more levelling in content in Wrath than we had in Cata or have now I do not see how offering less than they previously have is doing their best.

    I am not saying that at all however existence of this item suggests that Blizzard believe people will pay for it why would anyone pay to skip something they enjoy?

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Yeah, I once heard these insane claims about a man 7 meters tall. Let's assume he was only 6 meters tall....
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/afonteve...achilles-heel/

    World of Warcraft (WoW) has helped ATVI maintain its stock price, with this one single game providing roughly 30% of the revenue for the entire company via its expansion packs and monthly payments. Subscription revenue alone totaled $1.2 billion both in 2008 and 2009, and an additional $1.36 billion in 2010. Corresponding costs (the overhead cost of maintaining WoW’s virtual world) totaled a mere $404 million in the first two years mentioned, and $241 million in 2010. This means that WoW subscriptions have generated gross margins over 80% consistently. Since WoW has very high operating leverage any decline in revenue will have dramatic effects on the bottom line.
    Operational costs for WoW are very low and getting lower while the profit margin is 80%. Blizzard has made almost 2.5 billion dollars from Subs during TBC and Wrath without investing any of that money back into WoW. We have been getting less and less content, raids, zones, art, etc. Instead of a better service and more content we have been getting more grinds, dailies, recycling and 4 modes for the same raids, 3 modes for the same dungeons and 2 modes for the scenarios.

    Blizzard have no justification for milking their players more than they have for the past 8 years. It's just pure greed to add more premium shit in their game.

  3. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Allowing people to skip content devalues it, I have not seen a single request to allow people to skip content by paying an additional fee.
    I've seen the idea bandied about before. Also it solves a problem many have complained about: namely that of managing alts.

    Saying that I want to speed up the levelling process on my 5th alt is very different from saying I don't care for the levelling process. Personally I enjoyed the MoP levelling experience, twice already. However it was definitely a lot more fun the first time around. This is why I personally don't play alts. But a lot of other people do. They want to experience end game content on those alts, and for them going through the same levelling process would be undesirable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Is there a point to this silly remark? Perhaps if you think I am wrong you could get some figures from Bliizzard P&L statements?
    Since your argument was based on a massively exaggerated claim, I wanted to highlight that.

    If you want to quote their profit margins, it is up to you to go and do the research, not pull out some BS estimated figure that is inaccurate by a factor of nearly 4 in order to prove your point.

    Looking it up, they declared a dividend of 85c per share. Given that their revenue was around 5bn and the profit was around 1bn, their profit margin is about 20% as a company. The exact profitability of WoW is likely rather impressive, but still unknown, and most likely a lot less than you would guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    I would prefer that there were enough different ways to level
    You mean maybe having a choice of two different levelling zones to choose from? How about refurbishing all the quests so they are fresh and exciting? You mean expecting them to put in the work of two expansions to create 2 totally different ways to level up different characters?

    Sound familiar? It should, because this is what they did for Cata and it burned them badly.

    Besides, there are already a number of different ways to level. You can quest. You can dungeon. You pet battle. You can PvP. You can do the Darkmoon Faire once a month plus all the holiday events. You can even level up doing archaeology.

    Or you can do a combination of all of the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    and that it was not overly long and boring
    One man's meat is another man's poison. Or so the saying goes. I don't think levelling up from 85-90 was overly long or boring - the first time I did it. The first time I did it, it was awesome. The second time it wasn't the same. I don't plan to level a third alt any time soon. Not because there is anything wrong with the content, but because I have done it already. Doing it again and again and again becomes a chore.

    Personally I think it would be silly to just buy a level up for your main character at the start of a new xpac. You would be missing out on so much fun. But then again I don't plan to do it that way. Why I should care about what some other guy prefers when it doesn't really affect me though, is a mystery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    if this item is going to be available I would prefer that it was for in game currency.
    That's not a bad suggestion. However why not have both options? Have it available for ingame currency or for real money? Again, how does it hurt you if someone else wants to buy it for real money?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    If Blizzard cannot make content that is interesting enough that people do not want to skip it already I doubt the income from this item is going to change that.
    Just because some people will want to use this does not mean that Blizzard is not making "content that is interesting enough". Not everyone is the same. What 90% of the players find interesting enough might not apply to the other 10%, and making content specifically for those 10% might not be appealing to the other 90%. Plus there is the issue of alts. Which is why, making this feature strictly optional is nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    They are making a paid for item and then not expecting people to buy? Gotcha.
    sigh. You are playing with semantics instead of trying to understand the meaning.

    I expect you to pay for the experience buff =/= I expect you will pay for the experience buff. They have two very different meanings.

    Blizzard is anticipating that some people will be prepared to pay for this feature. However that does not mean they are going to force everyone to do so. The post I was answering to was implying the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    We had more levelling in content in Wrath than we had in Cata or have now
    Really?

    875 quests in WotLK for the achievements.
    555 quests in Cata for the achievements. Plus about 2000 quests in the refurbished old world. For levelling up of course.
    ~1050 quests in MoP on Pandaria (for horde, minus all level 90 quests which can't be used to level up)

    The numbers simply don't support your argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    existence of this item suggests that Blizzard believe people will pay for it why would anyone pay to skip something they enjoy?
    1) People doing the content on alts might well pay to skip the content the second, third or tenth time around.
    2) Not everyone is the same. There will always be some people who don't enjoy the content no matter what Blizzard do. You can't please everyone all the time.

    This item is good way to help out both these groups of people. It does not mean the content is unenjoyable.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2013-07-10 at 02:52 PM.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Since your argument was based on a massively exaggerated claim, I wanted to highlight that.

    If you want to quote their profit margins, it is up to you to go and do the research, not pull out some BS estimated figure that is inaccurate by a factor of nearly 4 in order to prove your point.

    Looking it up, they declared a dividend of 85c per share. Given that their revenue was around 5bn and the profit was around 1bn, their profit margin is about 20% as a company. The exact profitability of WoW is likely rather impressive, but still unknown, and most likely a lot less than you would guess.
    The numbers are likely correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    We had more levelling in content in Wrath than we had in Cata or have now

    Really?

    875 quests in WotLK for the achievements.
    555 quests in Cata for the achievements. Plus about 2000 quests in the refurbished old world. For levelling up of course.
    ~1050 quests in MoP on Pandaria (for horde, minus all level 90 quests which can't be used to level up)

    The numbers simply don't support your argument.
    The zones in Wrath were way more diverse, there was better art, more dungeons, more raids and raid bosses, the list goes on.

  5. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    If you're in Korea.
    Now now. We both know that what starts in the Asian markets eventually hits US and European soil. Anyone who thinks this will NOT either affect the US or reach the US eventually is simply fooling themselves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgarlaw View Post
    This stuff is for the asian regions.
    So that means it will never make its way to US soil? Are you always this naive, or do you just not believe the great and powerful Blizzard would do that to its players or its game?


    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgarlaw View Post
    Dont use words you do not understand. Makes you look like a fool.

    Even if they sold charms, which they arent. They sell a BUFF that increases the droprate, it still wouldnt be pay to win.

    pay to win implies that people can buy stuff that people who do not pay cannot get.

    Not the case.

    The XP potion already drops in the game, and getting lesser charms is a joke.
    You're complaining over fuck all.
    Buy as many rolls as you want? Get lost, you can only hand in the quest once per week.
    Yes, and there is no longer a crisis in the Middle East. Feel free to blow it off and forget about it. But, I would wager $100k says this market is made available in the US within 18-24 months and the firestorm will be 10x what it is now. I won't debate this with you any further since your opinion is steeped in emotion, and insults.

  6. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    The numbers are likely correct.
    Not a chance.

    He quoted 85% profit margin, saying 80% was a conservative guess.

    Yes, WoW makes a very healthy profit. But to claim that it is "easily" 80% is ridiculous.

    To put it into perspective, from the article you quoted from Forbes, which btw is cherry picking numbers to create a perception of an operating profit margin far higher than it actually is:

    In 2010: They estimate $1.36 billion in sub revenue. Corresponding costs (the overhead cost of maintaining WoW’s virtual world) totaled $241 million.

    What about 2013?

    I doubt the overhead cost of maintaining WoW's virtual world decreased (remember that cost had come down from previous year's at $404M because they streamlined and retrenched). Their subs have certainly come down. So let's say:

    In 2013: I estimate $750 million in sub revenue. Corresponding costs (the overhead cost of maintaining WoW’s virtual world) totals $250 million.

    Which is a 66% operating margin.

    Operating Margin =/= net profit. What about ongoing development costs (eg for 5.4)? What about marketting? What about reinvestment into future projects (eg Titan, which recently had to be rebooted)?

    So, once WoW's real profit margin is calculated, if you genuinely think 80% is "likely correct" then I'm afraid you need to rethink it a bit.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Not a chance.

    He quoted 85% profit margin, saying 80% was a conservative guess.

    Yes, WoW makes a very healthy profit. But to claim that it is "easily" 80% is ridiculous.

    To put it into perspective, from the article you quoted from Forbes, which btw is cherry picking numbers to create a perception of an operating profit margin far higher than it actually is:

    In 2010: They estimate $1.36 billion in sub revenue. Corresponding costs (the overhead cost of maintaining WoW’s virtual world) totaled $241 million.

    What about 2013?

    I doubt the overhead cost of maintaining WoW's virtual world decreased (remember that cost had come down from previous year's at $404M because they streamlined and retrenched). Their subs have certainly come down. So let's say:

    In 2013: I estimate $750 million in sub revenue. Corresponding costs (the overhead cost of maintaining WoW’s virtual world) totals $250 million.

    Which is a 66% operating margin.

    Operating Margin =/= net profit. What about ongoing development costs (eg for 5.4)? What about marketting? What about reinvestment into future projects (eg Titan, which recently had to be rebooted)?

    So, once WoW's real profit margin is calculated, if you genuinely think 80% is "likely correct" then I'm afraid you need to rethink it a bit.
    The costs of $404 million are the costs for 2008 and 2009 combined in 2010 the costs rose from an average of $202 million to $241 million in both 08 and 09 WOW had a yearly income of $1.2 billion and $1.36 billion in 2010 thus the statement that WOW had a gross margin of over 80% is correct (83% in 08 and 09 and 82% in 2010). I we assume that costs have remained relatively stable since 2010 at $250 million in 2011 Subscription, Licensing and other revenues (this does include COD elite) rose to $1.498 billion (83% gross profit) and in 2012 income was $1.236 billion (80% gross profit).

    Secondly I did not say that 80% was a conservative estimate (although it has been 80% or greater for five years) I said take the figure of 80% for argument's sake.

    You are talking about the profit of the company as a whole I am talking about the margins on WOW.

  8. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    Now now. We both know that what starts in the Asian markets eventually hits US and European soil. Anyone who thinks this will NOT either affect the US or reach the US eventually is simply fooling themselves.
    Be prepared that when you say something people will respond to what you say:

    Agreed... but this one will be. Selling Lesser charms means no more dailies or farming them. Now you can just buy as many rolls as you want.
    It's somewhat unlikely, but not impossible, that we'll see a cash shop in the US/EUR regions during MoP. Lesser charms may not live out beyond the expansion. And you certainly can't buy as many rolls as you want now. Or any time soon likely. And we have no idea if in future iterations of the game if lesser charms, if they exist at all, will be even tied to dailies.

    I don't doubt that this will eventually be put into the game for everyone and I'm largely ambivalent about it (which I suppose means to some people I'm gung-ho for it to happen but what it really means is that I'm ambivalent about it, probably won't use it for anything and if I do it's no one else's business but my own). The larger point is really we have no idea what will really be there when it is available and whether or not the game will be changed in response to it. Which all goes to final point that it's too soon to be making assumptions about it and that we should wait and see.

    That said I think it's fine to get out on the table what everyone's thoughts are about how and if it should be limited and see if it's possible (unlikely) to have a civil discussion about what "Pay2Win" actually means.

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    I think the term Pay-to-win is just a very loose and fluid concept. The term pay-for-bypass is likely the better verbiage. No one can pay to win in a Game since that implies they could purchase a level cap character in full hardmode gear with 10m gold in their account and all of their achievements unlocked. So as far as "pay-to-win" is concerned, we can agree the term is over generalized and usually mis-used.

    As for the cash market, I really would bet money on not just the implementation in the US in the future, but also the items. It will be much like the Cartel Market in SWTOR purchasing matching set gear and modding it as you see fit, or certain mounts and such like the current store already has. This is just the tip of the iceberg, and sadly, the blissfully happy group of gamers are the Titanic.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by Buxton McGraff View Post
    If they're doing it because Vivendi might siphon money from them, then I support it. I only support them if they NEED the money or if they're planning on going F2P.
    I do not support this if they're just doing it to be greedy and milk their customers for more money.
    To avoid a cash shop in a subscription required game, I would support raising the sub a dollar or two...at least everyone would still be on equal ground. Instead of "ha ha, I've got more money to spend than you do" it's "I played the game and got my reward" This is why I even hate the real money only mounts in the Blizzard store.
    Last edited by bigmac; 2013-07-10 at 09:07 PM.

  11. #531
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    If it comes to the US version, depending what is in it I know I'll be throwing more moneyz at blizzard lol. They'll have lowest subs ever and highest profit ever...lol

  12. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    It will be much like the Cartel Market in SWTOR purchasing matching set gear and modding it as you see fit, or certain mounts and such like the current store already has. This is just the tip of the iceberg, and sadly, the blissfully happy group of gamers are the Titanic.
    Given the reviews of the SW:TOR F2P (god, the acronyms) system I don't expect an eventual Blizzard F2P schema to look anything like that so what might be in the store apart from what you wrote is anyone's guess at this point. They would be smarter to do F2P more like Trion although it's really hard to say since the F2P point for WoW is considerably different than a lot of people believe it to be. Blizzard is bigger than most other studios and WoW pays for a lot of irons in the fire so the correct calculation on that is not when they lose so many subscribers the game becomes unprofitable but more like when the game can't fund Blizzard at the level it does now. When that revenue point hits though where F2P is better for them than P2P, they'll embrace it in a heartbeat.

    They really need to get busy and diversify their product line. Too many eggs in the WoW basket for too many years in my opinion. It's worked for them for a very long time so it's difficult to say they were wrong per se. It appears to me that they've possibly painted themselves into a fiscal corner though.

    A smarter play for them might be to do F2P up to the current expansion with the cash shop and whatnot but require people to buy the newest expansion to play in it and then convert that to F2P when the next comes out. I think that's something like SOE does with EQ/EQII. And of course, have a plan like they do now, $15 a month gets you what you get now and add a monthly credit towards cash shop stuff. Somewhere in there, there's probably a viable plan. You could likely expect 20+ million players in a WoW F2P system, perhaps more.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-07-10 at 09:49 PM.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  13. #533
    Love listening to the apologists justify the addition of a cash shop because vivendi MIGHT try and siphon money from acti-blizz. (in a game that requires initial purchase fee (for each xpac mind you) as well as subscription). Poor blizzard, so strapped for cash, look at all the eager little ignorants desperately justifying why they want to give them more money.

    I have never seen a more gullible group of consumers.

  14. #534
    Not much of a shock, we all knew once the Sparkle Pony made them $1 million in under 24 hours it was inevitable.

    With subs crashing and expected to continue to decline they have to figure out a method to keep profits rising.

    Lets review what they've done so far...

    Many more pets/mounts added to the cash store
    Lay off as many workers as possible to streamline the customer service experience
    LFR to produce cheap content for mass consumption

    Well whats left? Revenue must be increased and they know they cannot expect to increasing their sub base again. So if you have less people paying, the only way to increase profit now is to make each person already paying pay more.

    Now if they raise the sub rate they risk backlash so that's a last ditch choice. But if you can entice folks to shell put more money voluntarily for items not available in game you can increase the pay-per-person amount.

    So enter The Cash Shop!

    Anyone with any ability to think objectively saw this coming along time ago. I quit WoW back when they 1st open the "mount/pet" store knowing that this day would come sooner or later.

    The funny thing is Activison has killed WoW, it just took them a little longer because of how large and popular it was. On the plus side now I can laugh and so I told you so

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Lomak View Post
    I have never seen a more gullible group of consumers.
    stop thinking of them as consumers; they dont behave like consumers do in any other area of life. if you think of them as cult members, the behaviour starts to make a lot more sense.
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  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    stop thinking of them as consumers; they dont behave like consumers do in any other area of life. if you think of them as cult members, the behavior starts to make a lot more sense.
    Someone really needs to study how company's like Blizzard and even Apple manage to create this feeling of "fanboyism". I mean imagine developing a customer base where you can almost do no wrong and people will buy what ever you make just because you made it.

    Not only that but your consumers will actively go out and defend those decision, voluntarily and sometimes almost obsessively to any detractors.

    Really it boggles my mind; your right Hueh its almost akin to faith.

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    I think the term Pay-to-win is just a very loose and fluid concept. The term pay-for-bypass is likely the better verbiage.
    I agree with you, but imo this term shouldn't be used at all in relation to cash-shops. Cash-shop is cash-shop, selling in-game goods, which is fine for games for which you don't pay (f2p). But if someone pays for game, cash-shop is out of the question. If WoW would be f2p, there would be little to no issues with cash-shop. But it is p2p, and currently existing cash-shop is already too much. And even having it as part of in-game UI is nothing but an insult to paying customers.
    stop thinking of them as consumers; they dont behave like consumers do in any other area of life. if you think of them as cult members, the behaviour starts to make a lot more sense.
    It would sound funny if it wasn't sad at same time. Too close to the truth :(

  18. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    stop thinking of them as consumers; they dont behave like consumers do in any other area of life. if you think of them as cult members, the behaviour starts to make a lot more sense.
    The "Cult of the Anti-Blizzard" makes as much if not more noise than the "Fanboys of Azeroth". Neither side covers itself in glory in this regard. It really is striking how many people who have left and apparently hate the game hang around to post on forums. Not to mention their constant marveling at the idea that people that visit fan web sites might be actual fans. So too with the cash shop. There's potential for good and bad things but not really enough is known about it to say anything for certain. Not that that stops anyone.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Raxis View Post
    Someone really needs to study how company's like Blizzard and even Apple manage to create this feeling of "fanboyism". I mean imagine developing a customer base where you can almost do no wrong and people will buy what ever you make just because you made it.

    Not only that but your consumers will actively go out and defend those decision, voluntarily and sometimes almost obsessively to any detractors.

    Really it boggles my mind; your right Hueh its almost akin to faith.
    What's actually MORE boggling is when someone holds their opinion in such high regard that they can't possibly fathom that someone really, truly enjoys playing a game that someone else finds poorly done. It's like, how is it POSSIBLE for someone to disagree with that person when they know they're the arbiter of good taste and all that is right?

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The "Cult of the Anti-Blizzard" makes as much if not more noise than the "Fanboys of Azeroth". Neither side covers itself in glory in this regard. It really is striking how many people who have left and apparently hate the game hang around to post on forums. Not to mention their constant marveling at the idea that people that visit fan web sites might be actual fans. So too with the cash shop. There's potential for good and bad things but not really enough is known about it to say anything for certain. Not that that stops anyone.
    From an objective standpoint, as a gamer, I find what blizzard is doing (their entire philosophy when it comes to design) disgusting and disingenuous. Posting about that, and the reason why, is just as reasonable to do (if not more so) then blindly praising every decision, or worse off, going out of the way to make up excuses for their practices.

    Doesn't make us haters for spreading the truth.

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