Huge Hunter changes incoming

[Tehstool]

Right now on the ptr the trinket is reducing the CD on rapid fire, deterrence, disengage, camouflage, bestial wrath, and stampede. Now, depending on the circumstances (extremely likely circumstances) you may be able get an extra stampede out during the duration of the fight. Now if everything hits live as it is, with the buffed stampede, that would do a huge amount of damage, just for doing nothing and hitting a button.

[Dracodraco]

You said we were losing ~2k agility in your other post. We're gaining agility. I think trading 1959 stats for the CD reduction would be worth it. Especially on the cooldowns it reduces as BM.

Erh. No? We're losing the stats for the tradeoff of CD reduction. So it's 2K stats (I was looking at the trinket with base agility when I was posting that, therefore I said agil) vs the cooldown reduction. It surely can't be worth it for survival considering BA's 20 sec duration and 24 sec CD. Rapid fire is not a boost that will have any impact and all, and that leaves stampede, which I guess we'll see. I'd imagine Zeherah is going about her way trying to program in the reduced CD's for femaledwarf already so we can see roughly how big a DPS gain the reduction is.

Right now on the ptr the trinket is reducing the CD on rapid fire, deterrence, disengage, camouflage, bestial wrath, and stampede. Now, depending on the circumstances (extremely likely circumstances) you may be able get an extra stampede out during the duration of the fight. Now if everything hits live as it is, with the buffed stampede, that would do a huge amount of damage, just for doing nothing and hitting a button.

On the other hand, some timings sees no benefit at all. If the CD reduction is 29%, then it means that the fight has to "end" in between the timeframe: 3:30-5:20 for that to happen. We'll see the third stampede at 7 minutes into the fight, where it'd normally be 10 minutes, and the fourth at 10:30. So if the fight ends between 10 and 10:30, then you'd see no increase in amount of stampedes, either.
Most fights with "hard to beat" enrage timers have historically had either a 6 minute or a 10 minute enrage timer (think Baleroc, Ultraxion, Twins, Garajal, Garalon's original form had a 6 min timer that was "nerfed" to 7 minutes due to overtuning, and so forth).

Now, I don't know if any such patchwerk/DPS tuned fight exists this tier, but historically, on the encounters it'll matter most, the stampedes will not actually be benefitting us >.<.

[Namarus]

/Cancelaura Deterrence
/Cast Deterrence

You know I used to use this macro for a while until it was pointed out that it was the worst macro ever.

Tiny bit of lag you start mashing your button, boom deterrence gets cast, and boom deterrence is off. You are far far better off having a separate macro to remove deterrence.

[kidsafe]

Erh. No? We're losing the stats for the tradeoff of CD reduction. So it's 2K stats (I was looking at the trinket with base agility when I was posting that, therefore I said agil) vs the cooldown reduction. It surely can't be worth it for survival considering BA's 20 sec duration and 24 sec CD. Rapid fire is not a boost that will have any impact and all, and that leaves stampede, which I guess we'll see. I'd imagine Zeherah is going about her way trying to program in the reduced CD's for femaledwarf already so we can see roughly how big a DPS gain the reduction is.

Which trinket would you sub for it though? The one with the base agility and mastery proc? Right now the multi-strike and cleave trinkets are absolutely terrible. Imagine the cooldown reduction on BW, Rapid Fire and Stampede with a fully upgraded Heroic Bloodsoaked trinket...

[Dracodraco]

You know I used to use this macro for a while until it was pointed out that it was the worst macro ever.

Tiny bit of lag you start mashing your button, boom deterrence gets cast, and boom deterrence is off. You are far far better off having a separate macro to remove deterrence.

I never mash the deterrence button, though. I have /stopcasting in front of it too, so there's no reason, really. As said, I don't pvp, meaning this is purely for PvE use - name me one boss where I'd want to mash deterrence in order to get the use on it off. One click to activate, one click to deactivate, done.

Which trinket would you sub for it though? The one with the base agility and mastery proc? Right now the multi-strike and cleave trinkets are absolutely terrible. Imagine the cooldown reduction on BW, Rapid Fire and Stampede with a fully upgraded Heroic Bloodsoaked trinket...

Probably the mastery one, yea. Alternatively, have anyone tested if the trinkets are on ICD or RPPM? If they're ICD based, then I might just don a heroic thunderforged renataki untill I get heroic/bloodsoaked trinkets in the next tier. With the uptime we'll be having on rapid fire through set bonus and the pure amount of added stats, I imagine RPPM will be going wild.

[Tehstool]

Erh. No? We're losing the stats for the tradeoff of CD reduction. So it's 2K stats (I was looking at the trinket with base agility when I was posting that, therefore I said agil) vs the cooldown reduction. It surely can't be worth it for survival considering BA's 20 sec duration and 24 sec CD. Rapid fire is not a boost that will have any impact and all, and that leaves stampede, which I guess we'll see. I'd imagine Zeherah is going about her way trying to program in the reduced CD's for femaledwarf already so we can see roughly how big a DPS gain the reduction is.

I am speaking solely for BM since I don't intend on playing SV during the next tier unless if one of the fights is better as SV. I think that it will be the best trinket for BM.

I think you misunderstood me. You said we're losing agi and simmed yourself losing agi. We're not, we're gaining agi in comparison to the other trinkets. Something must've went wrong and you misread what I said. If we take the CD reduction trinket we would only be losing 1959 secondary stats. Taking 1959 secondary stats out of femaledwarf makes me lose 5506.37 dps.(2.52%). For BM I think this trinket will be really good.

[Dracodraco]

As long as I continue to have an interrupting shot. They may say it's not necessary, but I've had silencing shot since I could get it and haven't change it since because it is indeed necessary for soloing, pvp and pve. Try fighting a monk rare without it and tell me how not necessary it is...

I farm the townlong rares constantly (dead realm), and it's actually quite possible to BM-burst the monk rare that drops the enchanting bag down before he even spins =P. With enough gear, of course.

[Tehstool]

Probably the mastery one, yea. Alternatively, have anyone tested if the trinkets are on ICD or RPPM? If they're ICD based, then I might just don a heroic thunderforged renataki untill I get heroic/bloodsoaked trinkets in the next tier. With the uptime we'll be having on rapid fire through set bonus and the pure amount of added stats, I imagine RPPM will be going wild.

I believe the reverse renataki's trinket is real ppm and the cd reduction one is ICD. Other than that I haven't tested the others because they aren't even good compared to them.

[Namarus]

I never mash the deterrence button, though. I have /stopcasting in front of it too, so there's no reason, really. As said, I don't pvp, meaning this is purely for PvE use - name me one boss where I'd want to mash deterrence in order to get the use on it off. One click to activate, one click to deactivate, done.

I was talking from a raiding perspective myself. I am amazed that you are are able to just get abilities to go off with a single button press. Like I said I used to use that macro until I watched one of Kripparrian videos where it really made sense not to have them together.

[Dracodraco]

I believe the reverse renataki's trinket is real ppm and the cd reduction one is ICD. Other than that I haven't tested the others because they aren't even good compared to them.

Erh. Reverse? I was saying if the new trinkets are ICD, then I'll probably be sticking to the RPPM trinket for quite awhile.

I am speaking solely for BM since I don't intend on playing SV during the next tier unless if one of the fights is better as SV. I think that it will be the best trinket for BM.

I think you misunderstood me. You said we're losing agi and simmed yourself losing agi. We're not, we're gaining agi in comparison to the other trinkets. Something must've went wrong and you misread what I said. If we take the CD reduction trinket we would only be losing 1959 secondary stats. Taking 1959 secondary stats out of femaledwarf makes me lose 5506.37 dps.(2.52%). For BM I think this trinket will be really good.

With the way encounters have been looking so far on PTR, a significant part of them heavily favors surv - just like this tier. Not to mention the tier set and the fact that we're moving away from RPPM items (if you're correct) means that the heavy boost BM got due to "double scaling" through haste (with both RPPM items and pet regen focus etc) will be an advantage the spec no longer has - Surv has always been "debatable" if haste was stronger this tier, and it won't be at all next tier. We'll see about BM.

I was talking from a raiding perspective myself. I am amazed that you are are able to just get abilities to go off with a single button press. Like I said I used to use that macro until I watched one of Kripparrian videos where it really made sense not to have them together.

Dunno, it's just never been an issue. I mean, why would I be mashing the key anyway? I activate it 0.5 second before shit hits me, mashing it wouldn't improve my timing any >_<.

[Kuul]

That's pretty much true about every class.

Some more than the others.

[Tehstool]

Erh. Reverse? I was saying if the new trinkets are ICD, then I'll probably be sticking to the RPPM trinket for quite awhile.



With the way encounters have been looking so far on PTR, a significant part of them heavily favors surv - just like this tier. Not to mention the tier set and the fact that we're moving away from RPPM items (if you're correct) means that the heavy boost BM got due to "double scaling" through haste (with both RPPM items and pet regen focus etc) will be an advantage the spec no longer has - Surv has always been "debatable" if haste was stronger this tier, and it won't be at all next tier. We'll see about BM.

Yeah, 5.4 Raid - Normal - Siege of Orgrimmar - Boss X Loot X - Agi DPS Trinket (4) essentially reverse renataki's since it doesn't have a name yet. That one should be real ppm according to my logs and testing.

Out of all the fights I have tested, BM still seems the way to go. I don't think SV will have an edge next tier.

I still don't think losing the tier sets and a trinket will make haste unattractive to BM. It will definitely be closer, but I don't think it will be enough to swap back.

[De Lupe]

I think we will get a big rework like locks did next expansion, what they did with lock specs is fantastic in making the, different, hope they do this with hunters/ rogues next.

Mages could use it a little bit too.

Not nearly as badly as H/R, but still could use a little touch-up.

As long as I continue to have an interrupting shot. They may say it's not necessary, but I've had silencing shot since I could get it and haven't change it since because it is indeed necessary for soloing, pvp and pve. Try fighting a monk rare without it and tell me how not necessary it is...

Currently? Let him start the spin/right before he heals, then hit him with:
*Scatter Shot
*Intimidate
* - Add in Readiness (as current) and you get those x2
Taurens have Warstomp
Pandaren have Quaking Palm
If you're REALLY good with the timing/positioning, you could get Freezing trap (need testing to verify.)
Monkies, Gorilla, Crane, Wasps, Bats, Sithids, Basilisks, Porcupine, Shale Spiders, Moth, Rhino, and Nether Ray all have some form of CC that CAN be used to interrupt a spell.
Powershot knockback.
Pet charge (Tenacity) stuns, I believe. Could be wrong though.

Spin:
*I believe Deterrance works for the spin (I should test that actually)
Could put a glyphed Explosive trap between you and them to throw them away from you.
Worgen has Darkflight to help keep distance.
Glaive snare.
Frost Trap slow (+root if Surv.)
Crabs, Dogs, Crocolisks, and Spiders all have snares/roots.


Case in point, Hunters have access to, literally, every CC in the game. We do not NEED a silence.

[Tehstool]

Just did some tests 5.4 Raid - Normal - Siege of Orgrimmar - Boss X Loot X - Agi DPS Trinket (5) Is ICD. It's basically a mastery version of the CD reduction trinket proc. That is your only other choice for bm because the two other trinkets don't work with it. So with roughly 20% uptime on the two of them, you would be trading 2352.2 agi + CD reduction for 2352.2 mastery and 1959 agi. So if you take the mastery proc trinket, you are losing 393.2 agility plus the CD reduction trinket. Putting in 393 agi and -1959 haste into femaledwarf gives me a dps loss of 2794.84 (1.28%) as BM. I'm still not convinced that the CD reduction trinket will not be better.

[Dracodraco]

Yeah, 5.4 Raid - Normal - Siege of Orgrimmar - Boss X Loot X - Agi DPS Trinket (4) essentially reverse renataki's since it doesn't have a name yet. That one should be real ppm according to my logs and testing.

Out of all the fights I have tested, BM still seems the way to go. I don't think SV will have an edge next tier.

I still don't think losing the tier sets and a trinket will make haste unattractive to BM. It will definitely be closer, but I don't think it will be enough to swap back.

Which encounters have you tested so far :/? The ones I tested, Surv were dominant in almost all:
Protectors - 3 targets to multidot with serpent sting (spread). Beastcleave not efficient enough.
Immerseus - many low HP targets to be bursted down, oftenly close together. The harder hitting arcane shots+serpent spread from multishot on more targets are better.
Dark shamans - pets were incredible squishy and vulnearable to random AOE making BM useless. Even if it wasn't, the adds are dominated heavily by surv's AOE abilities.
Nazgrim - pets die to bladestorming adds. It's been that way for awhile now and was some kind of fix (it's the same school of damage as the spinning crane kick that the panda rares use - in the start of the expansion our pets took no damage from it, now they get two shot, seems unlikely they'll fix it).
Along with this, it's an add-fight which means "multidotting" and aoe will again be the way to go.
The Norushen fight also has a decent amount of adds to be multidotted.

BM will (probably) dominate in the singletarget fights, those being:
Blastfuse (burst needed to kill the weapons and general singletarget damage).
Juggernaut.
Sha of Pride.
Paragon's. Malkorok.

We're yet to see Thok, Galakras, Garrosh and Spoils.

Essentially, it'll be the same as it is now - fights that favors AOE and multidotting will be survival territory. Even though Beast Cleave has been buffed, it's still not powerfull enough on the few targets there is in some of the fights (multishot is worth it on 3 targets if I recall correct).

What makes me think Surv might sneak up on BM is the fact that, as said, we're going to be losing alot of RPPM effects. This will cause BM's scaling with haste to probably still be the "strongest", but it'll still be a weaker scaling factor than it has been this tier.
At the same time, Surv loses no significant scaling as Surv was still going for crit over haste untill extreme gear levels.
Surv's mastery should become relatively stronger than it already is due to the harder hitting arcane shots, partly due to the scaling Arcane shot has with rapid fire through the tier set, making the scaling actually go up for surv comparable.

Out of interest - I have been unable to get ToTH to proc off of a reduced-cost arcane shot. Reduced cost multi shot works just fine, but arcane is a no go. Anyone else seeing the same behaviour?

[Perrito]

You know I used to use this macro for a while until it was pointed out that it was the worst macro ever.

Tiny bit of lag you start mashing your button, boom deterrence gets cast, and boom deterrence is off. You are far far better off having a separate macro to remove deterrence.

you dont mash to aply, u mash to take it off. i use it as well, not only that i have a cancel bop in it as well.

#showtooltip
#show
/stopcasting
/stopcasting
/cancelaura deterrence
/cancelaura hand of protection
/cast deterrence
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

thats my macro

- - - Updated - - -

Out of interest - I have been unable to get ToTH to proc off of a reduced-cost arcane shot. Reduced cost multi shot works just fine, but arcane is a no go. Anyone else seeing the same behaviour?

iirc they took off arcane shot out of the table, i imagine that they dont want you to proc it when it was free, now seems like it cost and they havent done anything to it. this bugs need to be reported asap. unless they make it so arcane shot is free and ms half cost.

[kidsafe]

Dark shamans - pets were incredible squishy and vulnearable to random AOE making BM useless. Even if it wasn't, the adds are dominated heavily by surv's AOE abilities.

The only thing that killed my pet on Dark Shaman was Ashen Wall. That can be avoided by tanks learning how to move just far enough...and will do reduced damage to pets by the time 5.4 is live.

Essentially, it'll be the same as it is now - fights that favors AOE and multidotting will be survival territory. Even though Beast Cleave has been buffed, it's still not powerfull enough on the few targets there is in some of the fights (multishot is worth it on 3 targets if I recall correct).

BM is superior to SV on practically every fight in ToT except Ji-kun at this point. On fights with 3-4 targets I only hit multi-shot every 4 seconds...it's not something you spam unless you have many, many targets.

[Tehstool]

Essentially, it'll be the same as it is now - fights that favors AOE and multidotting will be survival territory. Even though Beast Cleave has been buffed, it's still not powerfull enough on the few targets there is in some of the fights (multishot is worth it on 3 targets if I recall correct).

I expect them to fix all the pet deaths if we brought enough attention to it.


I still don't think the gap is as far as you say it is. BM and SV's AoE are both really close. Having adds in the fight doesn't automatically make survival better.

The burst AoE BM put out with the protector fight was huge at the start. You get a stack of the 4 piece for every add it hits. The ramp up was fast and it put out a lot of damage.

On Nazgrim you aoe all the little adds at the start. With Bestial wrath up the 4 piece stacked to its full potential in no time. Then it's just single target with some add management.

Even on fights where you can't AoE, I don't think SV's slightly more potent dot will make up for all the damage BM has on it. SrS is ticking for ~20k for me as BM and ~30k for me as SV. That adds up to 100k for BM and 150k for SV. Since you are substituting an SrS for an arcane shot, that would be (arcane shot that would be hitting for) ~60k for SV and ~50k for BM. So a ~50k damage gain for BM and a ~90k gain for SV. That puts it 40k ahead of BM. 40k over 15 seconds of damage is 2666.66667 dps. That is not enough to make up for the gap in single target damage BM has over SV. Right now switching from BM to SV in femaledwarf shows a 12634.11 (5.79%) dps loss. Which is going to be even more with the arcane shot and stampede changes which favor BM more. You would need at least 5 sustained SrS targets to make SV better if they cannot be bunched up and aoed and even then it's debatable since BM's aoe is really good at the moment.

- - - Updated - - -

BM is superior to SV on practically every fight in ToT except Ji-kun at this point. On fights with 3-4 targets I only hit multi-shot every 4 seconds...it's not something you spam unless you have many, many targets.

Ji-kun has actually been fixed. It gives the damage buff to your pet, so BM should be better.

(log for reference: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=7151#Tehstool)

- - - Updated - - -

My mistake, I forgot improved serpent sting. Mine is hitting for ~25k. That over 15 seconds is 1666.66666667 dps. So 4333.33 dps in total. You'd need ~3 targets in addition to the one you are mainly on for it to be worth it.

[Aleksej89]

I am reading all your smarty pants number crunching and - honestly - i do not care.

I am just so much happy that Readiness is gone... happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy!

May you fester in the worst infernal hole in hell, Readiness.

[Dracodraco]

The only thing that killed my pet on Dark Shaman was Ashen Wall. That can be avoided by tanks learning how to move just far enough...and will do reduced damage to pets by the time 5.4 is live.


BM is superior to SV on practically every fight in ToT except Ji-kun at this point. On fights with 3-4 targets I only hit multi-shot every 4 seconds...it's not something you spam unless you have many, many targets.

The targetted poison-wave thing also killed my pet (as it's not theoretically AOE, but a piercing shot in a direction).

And just to emphasize - Surv isn't superior to BM because it's AOE capabilities are stronger. They're pretty close.
Surv will be stronger due to the way the encounters are laid out, as it currently is (targets spread far apart) - both because Blink strikes CD is too long to reliably target switch, and because Surv can actually dot stuff up.

Stool - you're forgetting to include focus in those calculations, Arcane shot costs double as much as serpent sting.