5.4 Changes

[Deleted]

So the CD reduction trinket now affects:

Shield Wall
Die By the Sword
Recklessness
T4 Talents
T6 Talents

I'm quite pleased and surprised that they did that, adds a lot more personal dps and opportunities. Skull banner and shattering throw are both to good of a dps gain for the whole group, reducing those was questionable in the first place.

Prot warriors still have 2.5 minutes on skull banner but currently no tier talent cooldown reduction so i'd assume that they only changed the dps trinket for now and the prot one will follow in the next push.

If you don't happen to have a ptr client -> the actual skills affected can be found http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=145992 and http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=145991 Current cooldown reductions are 20% for prot and 39% for dps, yes you can get a bloodbath + bladestorm combo out every 45 seconds

Funny (or sad, depending on your PoV): with those changes arms probably won't even need more help with aoe (currently +50% on sweeping strikes & thunderclap, slam hitting multiple targets), just some single target throughput options.

[Skarssen]

You guys are extremely silly if you think Blizzard actually listens to anything other than well thought out posts from respected community members.

The problem with most "forum posters" is that they think bringing up what they believe to be important issues automatically translates to Blizzard doing something about it. My main is a DK, and it is very evident to most skilled and experienced DK's that our class has a very serious problem with poor stat scaling. This issue has been brought to Blizzards attention numerous times with reasonable and unequivocal arguments, but Blizzard does not acknowledge the problem. So, just being vocal is no guarantee that you will see changes. If it goes against Blizzards "vision" ("You may have scaling issues, but you have death grip and lots of raid utility!".....lol) then you will not be successful in your lobbying.

That said, if your class/spec wears a dress and prances around like a Nancy-boy shooting pretty lights out of your hands, you DO appear to have much more hope for forum QQ to be successful

[senturion]

It is not really that.. I heard from reliable sources that GC main was a Mage and that he got camped by a warrior while he was leveling it up. He rerolled a warlocked and got killed by the warrior again.. So there you have it.

[Dawnrage]

Right. The reasons Blizzard nerfs and buffs classes is in direct correlation to the amount of whining that people do. </sarcasm>
If you seriously believe that, you're deluded.

???

Did you miss the whole warlock debacle with KJC? Or mages in the first week of ToT? Hunters and stampede? We playing the same game here? I must be in Rift.

While there were constructive posts (just like we have those too, shocking I know), the majority are just as whiny. Their communities aren't magically more mature than ours. Having a huge backing is all you need to make Blizzard move for the most part (or at the very least, get their attention).

When warriors can put up a thread of over 30 pages with 25 of them being "whining", you can bet your ass Blizzard will do something about it - but we are not in that bad of a position (at least fury/prot are not, and arms has 3 people playing it) that the warrior community will do something about it.

[sjsctt]

IMHO, most of us are not great theorycrafters. I know we have collision and a few others, but when was the last time you ran numbers? I am not knocking you. I have a full time job and am guilty of piggy-backing other's research. I have ideas of how they could improve warriors without making us OP, but to sit down and do the math is an undertaking that I don't have time for. I am very thankful for those that we have, but we simply do not have many theory crafters, where the classes you mentioned do. So yes, they do have a lot of whining. BUT, they do have a handful of people with well though out maths and ideas, where we may have like....3? If that?

[Dawnrage]

IMHO, most of us are not great theorycrafters. I know we have collision and a few others, but when was the last time you ran numbers? I am not knocking you. I have a full time job and am guilty of piggy-backing other's research. I have ideas of how they could improve warriors without making us OP, but to sit down and do the math is an undertaking that I don't have time for. I am very thankful for those that we have, but we simply do not have many theory crafters, where the classes you mentioned do. So yes, they do have a lot of whining. BUT, they do have a handful of people with well though out maths and ideas, where we may have like....3? If that?

I don't know what you think they have, but they only have a few notable people (hunters actually don't have anyone I can think of). 3 is probably as much as most of the other classes.

You can be the greatest theorycrafter of your time, but go put your math on a forum and see if Blizzard will be like, "Hey, Joeblow posted a thread with lots of math, let me go read this and agree with him." You NEED backing - those guys have that. We don't. Think about it - why would they pay attention to every thread that throws out random math EVEN IF IT MAKES SENSE if no one else is making a fuss about it? They aren't aiming to please one or two guys - they are aiming to please the various communities.

There are 100s of threads everyday with different issues for different classes - the ones that get blue post/acknowledged are the huge threads (and they also end up becoming the threads where a blue condones it being their "feedback" thread). I don't have to tell you this, but it's not Mr. Prodigy Theorycrafter filling up those threads alone.

When was the last time you saw a warrior thread in the damage dealing forums go to page 10?

[Requiel]

Arms got another AoE boost with bladestorm now doing 180% weapon damage.

[Darkfriend]

Arms got another AoE boost with bladestorm now doing 180% weapon damage.

Ye but its still only the 1 weapon, instead of both.

[Flaks]

Nothing in this specific post is going to be constructive. Over the past 9 years I have given enough constructive feedback along with many MANY other warriors in the community (unimportant like myself and important figures as well) and have netted no results besides Blizzard doing whatever the fuck they want and ignoring us most of the time (on official forums of course though we know Blizzard reads this site pretty heavily too).

The commonality of all of this is that there is a lot of complaining an no suggesting. We, as a warrior community, are awesome at crying and not giving specifics and possible remedies.

After the TWO MAX PAGE THREADS ON THE OFFICIAL FORUMS back in MoP beta with the most constructive feedback from any classes in this game ever, I'm going to have to have to disagree with you. Warriors have many MANY times given constructive feedback and still continue to do. It's just too bad that there aren't enough warriors COLLECTIVELY whining to get the attention of devs to ensure that they even begin reading the constructive feedback.

- - - Updated - - -

arms has 3 people playing it

Arms is the ENTIRETY of the warrior PvP community. The fact that there's people out there that keep saying "warriors are fine" is the reason that patch after patch arms is left behind not only in PvP but also PvE. And now that the PvE community finally woke up and we're getting all these PvE changes, we're going to STILL be left in the dust in PvP come 5.4 so much so that we're going to think back on 4.3 like it was some glory days because every single other class is keeping their retarded overpoweredness or is getting nerfs that will still leave them leaps and bounds ahead of arms. Just watch.

- - - Updated - - -

You guys are extremely silly if you think Blizzard actually listens to anything other than well thought out posts from respected community members.

Wrong again. Like I said, MoP beta saw the most constructive warrior thread I've ever seen. So much so that I haven't seen a single other thread by a single other class with THAT much constructive feedback with literally not a single pure whine post. And all from people very respected within the community, even Landsoul.

And what did we see? Absolutely NOTHING for arms in PvE. A complete oversight on the blatantly obvious over the top PvP changes that warriors in that thread all agreed on and provided constructive ways to tone them down. Instead we got a complete gutting of arms by 5.2 and here we are now bottom of the barrel in both PvE and PvP.

[cFortyfive]

Sure Blizzard a company trying to sell a product is never ever going to listen even the slightest bit to their customers.

Arms is the ENTIRETY of the warrior PvP community. The fact that there's people out there that keep saying "warriors are fine" is the reason that patch after patch arms is left behind not only in PvP but also PvE. And now that the PvE community finally woke up and we're getting all these PvE changes, we're going to STILL be left in the dust in PvP come 5.4 so much so that we're going to think back on 4.3 like it was some glory days because every single other class is keeping their retarded overpoweredness or is getting nerfs that will still leave them leaps and bounds ahead of arms. Just watch.

Would be surprised if they'd really change something. I suppose it's fitting that warriors are always an addon behind concerning mechanics. Be happy to be able to use your not full immunity defensive cooldown without a giant penalty and stuff.

[Rorke]

Bladestorm now does 180% weapon damage. Why can't they just give Arms a baseline stun that's similar to throwdown?

[Skarssen]

Bladestorm now does 180% weapon damage. Why can't they just give Arms a baseline stun that's similar to throwdown?

The last thing this game needs is more CC.

[Pheros]

The last thing this game needs is more CC.

Agree wholeheartedly. I kinda feel like we'll be in a decent place come 5.4. The last thing I want is for us to be borderline OP and get super nerfed again.

[Rorke]

Agree wholeheartedly. I kinda feel like we'll be in a decent place come 5.4. The last thing I want is for us to be borderline OP and get super nerfed again.

Yeah warriors will be fine tunneling the same Resto Shaman in the 1800 brackets. A baseline stun would not make Arms Overpowered. The fact that DK's have access to Asphyxiate, a class that previously never had a stun outside of pet stun gets a superior and more efficient stun over Warriors.

Skarssen should come back here and explain to everyone how balanced it is for a spec like Unholy to have access to a 5 second stun and a 3 (4) second pet stun and have the best sustained pressure in the game while having completely superior healing/defensive and anti CC mechanics over Warriors. If you're opposed to a baseline stun for Arms, I guess it would make you opposed to a baseline pet stun for Unholy as "there's too much CC" in this game.

[Deleted]

The fact that there's people out there that keep saying "warriors are fine" is the reason that patch after patch arms is left behind not only in PvP but also PvE.

That's because, from a PvE perspective, warriors (read:fury) are not really in a bad spot. Our damage is on par with other melee dps (except rogues) and we bring a lot of utility, mobility and short window burst. With 5.4 we get even more personal defense without sacrifing our dps and the vigilance change is huge, especially for 10m. To be honest, in my opinion warriors are currently the best melee for 10man progression raiding, because they offer much more than a DK and without one plate dps a huge chunk of loot is lost.
I can imagine that in 25man perspective, where you have much more raidcooldowns, personal survivability and dps matters more, but you can' just dismiss the fact that we are already a strong melee class for 10m raids.

[Deleted]

Or you bring a ret paladin who'll drop a Light's hammer during periods of high raiddamage (ie: Megaeras Rampage) and laugh your ass off.

Arms has similar issues to Frost DK (or all DK for that matter), they're capable of killing people in PvP in a short amount of time while dealing okay-ish damage outside of burst. But they both scale super bad with gear, thus if they buff x for pve they'd either have to readjust abilities for pvp/pve (see: Colossus Smash) which they clearly said several times they don't want to do or it'd get out of hand for either side. I pitty our raids DK, he went from top of the damage with festerblight play during the first weeks of progression to the very last place of our roster over the course of 2 months.

I really hope they bite the bullet, buff mortal yet lethal and slightly deadly strike of arms & funny death knight strike of doom and terror by 30% for PvE while only allowing 75% of it's damage to be dealt in PvP. We won't see a long term solution for this crux with 5.4 but we need some bandaid to help them out. Rather similar to the whole Riposte thingy for blood & prot.

[cFortyfive]

The last thing this game needs is more CC.

The game ? Certainly. But warriors need both more heal and cc for pvp to be able to keep up with retarded hybrid mechanics. Didn't even realize how ridiculously bad pvp is.

[Deleted]

The game ? Certainly. But warriors need both more heal and cc for pvp.

No, that's the toally wrong approach. Other classes need to be stripped of exactly that to have a more enjoyable experience again for everyone. Just fight any multiple hybrid team in 2s or worse 3s, they'll outheal your pure healer while beating you thanks to several froms of CC on top of strong healing healcooldowns (as a dps!) and mediocre to decent offheals.

Just have a look at http://www.wowpedia.org/Diminishing_Returns

Does a druid really need:
cyclone, root, knockback, stun, disorient & silence to compete? They could just have one of those abilities on a shorter cooldown while also stripping most classes of the counter abilities to it. Currently the game is bloated with multiple rock-paper-scissors. You can argue that using all of those is part of the new skillcap, for me it's mostly locking a player out entirely for a crazy amount of time (see: holy priest + symbiosis on druid or just any hunter).

[cFortyfive]

No, that's the toally wrong approach.

As if they would go in right now and fix all those hilariously bad things. I am aware that it's a total cc shitfest but you won't see every class suddenly stripped of their ccs and ridiculous heals. The most you could hope for will be a fix in two addons when they may consider getting back to the basics saying that not every class needs to be able to have everything.

[galvin]

That's because, from a PvE perspective, warriors (read:fury) are not really in a bad spot. Our damage is on par with other melee dps (except rogues) and we bring a lot of utility, mobility and short window burst. With 5.4 we get even more personal defense without sacrifing our dps and the vigilance change is huge, especially for 10m. To be honest, in my opinion warriors are currently the best melee for 10man progression raiding, because they offer much more than a DK and without one plate dps a huge chunk of loot is lost.
I can imagine that in 25man perspective, where you have much more raidcooldowns, personal survivability and dps matters more, but you can' just dismiss the fact that we are already a strong melee class for 10m raids.

Maybe in your guild you're topping the meters, but not in mine. I did back in tier14. Even on our lei-shen progression I'm nearly at the bottom on boss damage. But top 5 or so on add damage. When you have really good DK, rogues, druids, mages, warlocks. You wont be top ever in single target. Except maybe on tortos. Single target is really lackluster and has been all tier.