5.4 Changes

[Deleted]

Maybe in your guild you're topping the meters, but not in mine. I did back in tier14. Even on our lei-shen progression I'm nearly at the bottom on boss damage. But top 5 or so on add damage. When you have really good DK, rogues, druids, mages, warlocks. You wont be top ever in single target. Except maybe on tortos. Single target is really lackluster and has been all tier.

I did not say topping the meters. I said we deal similar damage to other melees except rogues, just look at raidbots statistics. You don't have to compare us to ranged.
It is simply not viable for a raid to neglect the complete plate dps loot and for a 10m progression guild it is not feasible to take two melees. Like I said, for a 10m progression raid I would prefer warriors before DKs (can't talk much about ret, but since every decent 10m guild has a prot+heal pala you already have pala cds), just because they bring (much) more utility and their damage is on par.

[Flaks]

Or you bring a ret paladin who'll drop a Light's hammer during periods of high raiddamage (ie: Megaeras Rampage) and laugh your ass off.

Arms has similar issues to Frost DK (or all DK for that matter), they're capable of killing people in PvP in a short amount of time while dealing okay-ish damage outside of burst. But they both scale super bad with gear, thus if they buff x for pve they'd either have to readjust abilities for pvp/pve (see: Colossus Smash) which they clearly said several times they don't want to do or it'd get out of hand for either side. I pitty our raids DK, he went from top of the damage with festerblight play during the first weeks of progression to the very last place of our roster over the course of 2 months.

I really hope they bite the bullet, buff mortal yet lethal and slightly deadly strike of arms & funny death knight strike of doom and terror by 30% for PvE while only allowing 75% of it's damage to be dealt in PvP. We won't see a long term solution for this crux with 5.4 but we need some bandaid to help them out. Rather similar to the whole Riposte thingy for blood & prot.

If you read what I wrote it was pretty much about nothing but arms. I know fury is competitive, but unlike say...mages, rogues, dks, warlocks, shaman who all have 2 pretty competitive PvE (and at time PvP) specs, there's literally no reason for arms to be as bad as it is because right now it's lacking in BOTH aspects of the game.

[Darkfriend]

I did not say topping the meters. I said we deal similar damage to other melees except rogues, just look at raidbots statistics. You don't have to compare us to ranged.
It is simply not viable for a raid to neglect the complete plate dps loot and for a 10m progression guild it is not feasible to take two melees. Like I said, for a 10m progression raid I would prefer warriors before DKs (can't talk much about ret, but since every decent 10m guild has a prot+heal pala you already have pala cds), just because they bring (much) more utility and their damage is on par.

I don't see two melee being too much for 10m. Three, perhaps mainly due to IQ and Meg BS.

[CollisionTD]

We ran 3 melee when I was in my old guild. It's really not a huge deal, even on Megeara/IQ.

[Damosapien]

I did not say topping the meters. I said we deal similar damage to other melees except rogues, just look at raidbots statistics. You don't have to compare us to ranged.

no...
all melee are higher except frost dk's. all viable specs are higher except frost dk's and depending on rng that week ele shammy.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...10100000000000

[Pheros]

Yeah warriors will be fine tunneling the same Resto Shaman in the 1800 brackets. A baseline stun would not make Arms Overpowered. The fact that DK's have access to Asphyxiate, a class that previously never had a stun outside of pet stun gets a superior and more efficient stun over Warriors.

Skarssen should come back here and explain to everyone how balanced it is for a spec like Unholy to have access to a 5 second stun and a 3 (4) second pet stun and have the best sustained pressure in the game while having completely superior healing/defensive and anti CC mechanics over Warriors. If you're opposed to a baseline stun for Arms, I guess it would make you opposed to a baseline pet stun for Unholy as "there's too much CC" in this game.

I don't disagree with your point on DKs. I'm not sure how I would address the inequality from a game dev perspective, but anything to reduce available CC in the game I'm all for. It's certainly a tough situation, and I can't say I have the answers. Remove asphyxiate? Remove baseline pet stun? Reduce the # of separate DRs? Make DR curve a little sharper? I'm no expert, but losing control of your character for more than 10 seconds with trinket down should never be possible under any circumstances, regardless of the # of attackers.

[Deleted]

no...
all melee are higher except frost dk's. all viable specs are higher except frost dk's and depending on rng that week ele shammy.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...10100000000000

And if you change it to only the top 100 parses fury suddenly is within 2% of every spec except assassination (although in 10m UH and ENH are still 5% higher, interesting). But you're right, the average warrior is behind the average other melee classes. Not sure if a damage buff is the right solution for that.

I don't see two melee being too much for 10m. Three, perhaps mainly due to IQ and Meg BS.

That's probably true for most of the encounters, I think I'm just biased by monk healing, which basically means you have another melee.

[Rorke]

I don't disagree with your point on DKs. I'm not sure how I would address the inequality from a game dev perspective, but anything to reduce available CC in the game I'm all for. It's certainly a tough situation, and I can't say I have the answers. Remove asphyxiate? Remove baseline pet stun? Reduce the # of separate DRs? Make DR curve a little sharper? I'm no expert, but losing control of your character for more than 10 seconds with trinket down should never be possible under any circumstances, regardless of the # of attackers.

You can't just start removing CC without altering the insane amounts of damage and healing levels in this game. It would require a complete overhaul of the entire game and in the end it wouldn't even feel like the same game anymore. They better do the item level squish next expansion or else the game will have more CC's, more defensive cool downs, more insane damage and more healing output. This has been happening every expansion and sooner or later Blizzard is going to have to hit the brakes on it.

[cFortyfive]

And if you change it to only the top 100 parses fury suddenly is within 2% of every spec except assassination (although in 10m UH and ENH are still 5% higher, interesting). But you're right, the average warrior is behind the average other melee classes. Not sure if a damage buff is the right solution for that.

Well it has been the preferred solution often enough.

[Darkfriend]

And if you change it to only the top 100 parses fury suddenly is within 2% of every spec except assassination (although in 10m UH and ENH are still 5% higher, interesting). But you're right, the average warrior is behind the average other melee classes. Not sure if a damage buff is the right solution for that.


That's probably true for most of the encounters, I think I'm just biased by monk healing, which basically means you have another melee.

Part of the problem is you can play an UH DK at competent raid levels with very little work. Save some RP to get DT up quick, spend death runes on SS, don't cap runes or RP, apply diseases at high AP, win. It's much harder to do that with a warrior. And so it makes fury warriors look weaker than they really are, which is why you need to compare numerous data points as the guy I'm quoting sorta does. Look at the top page of ranks on fights (many will be RNG or cheese, but gives an idea still) and the last page. Look at overall, look at sims, and look at what people are doing in your raid. Get the BIG picture.

[Kalmah]

You can't just start removing CC without altering the insane amounts of damage and healing levels in this game. It would require a complete overhaul of the entire game and in the end it wouldn't even feel like the same game anymore. They better do the item level squish next expansion or else the game will have more CC's, more defensive cool downs, more insane damage and more healing output. This has been happening every expansion and sooner or later Blizzard is going to have to hit the brakes on it.

What does this have to do with item squish ? Numbers are relative. What matters is the ratio between damage output, healing output and health pools. It doesn't matter if you're doing 3 billion dps or 300.

[Rorke]

What does this have to do with item squish ? Numbers are relative. What matters is the ratio between damage output, healing output and health pools. It doesn't matter if you're doing 3 billion dps or 300.

Yes it does matter. There isn't enough stamina to cope with with each tier of content's pve item damage/healing level scaling. This game is balanced around pve first and everything is just toppled onto pvp after. That is why there's stats like Resilience, Battle Fatigue, PvP power to restrain the effective pve damage and healing and make it somewhat playable in a pvp environment. The only reason pvp power and battle fatigue are in this game currently is because MoP's gear scaling is through the roof and if Blizzard didn't add those stats in this game would complete garbage.

It also has to do with the vast item level leaps MoP has gone through. There's a big difference in damage between a dude wearing 502 gear and another dude wearing 522 gear. How big is their stamina difference? Not much.

[Beefkow]

That is why there's stats like Resilience, Battle Fatigue, PvP power AND ILVL SCALING to restrain the effective pve damage and healing and make it somewhat playable in a pvp environment.

Fixed that for you.

Fury is only good in pve because your pretty much enraged 24/7 and with the mastery affecting that, it gets more benefits while arms has to rely on (i think 35% crit with full heroic and 5% crit buff) crits to get you enraged, even if you are enraged your damage still isn't high enough to compete with other melee because the weapon dmg percentage on the abilities (such as mortal strike, slam, and overpower) aren't high enough (compare slam to TV or obliterate). Keep in mind that slam is easy to use because it costs 20 rage while you need a decent amount of resources to use TV and obliterate (am i allowed to compare abilities that are somehow relevant?), but however arms rotation is all involved around a 1.5 GCD, which makes the arms spec very boring (if slam is going to be slow, make it HIT HARD).

There is one simple solution to adjusting arms damage (i admit, they struggle in both pve and pvp) is just up the wep % from 175% to 200% for MS and 125% up from 105% on overpower (why does overpower have 105%? what a strange number), and maybe reduce the rage cost on OP to 5 rage? i feel really rage starved just from using a useless ability that is only awesome because it crits almost 24/7.

[Brakthir]

I mean, if you legitimately believe that Blizzard, as one of the most successful companies in gaming, both commercially and critically, listens to whining on forums (which constitute a minority of players, by the way), then you are seriously deluded. They're professionals who have been doing this job for a long time. You may not agree with their current balancing team and hell, even I get angry now and then at their decisions, but trust me. They're not applying fixes because of whiners. They're applying fixes because they want the game to be balanced.

[Flaks]

i feel really rage starved just from using a useless ability that is only awesome because it crits almost 24/7.

Best part is seeing it crit for 15k on a colossus smashed mage.

- - - Updated - - -

They're applying fixes because they want the game to be balanced.

I think you need to go back through forum archives since 2004 and follow the trends in changes in the game especially following 2009. You'll notice a pattern. And that pattern won't be "seeking balance"; it'll be "appeasing the masses".

[Brakthir]

The burden of proof is on you. Why don't you provide examples instead of a general, sweeping statement that you expect me to take for granted.

[Flaks]

From 2 pages ago:

It's very clearly been shown to be true over almost the past decade now. Rogues and warlocks have by far the smallest communities (least played classes) yet they have a massive forum following that gives A LOT of feedback. While rogues were certainly over nerfed at the beginning of the expansion they and warlocks have both been riding competitive PvE specs if not contending for the number 1 spot for a LONG time while also being exceptionally strong in PvP.

Similarly, pallies are the most played class in the game. Thus ret has gotten A LOT of attention on the forums. Thus it has seen massive and sweeping changes for 3 expansions running ALL changes ensuring that they stayed rank 1 viable. And yet, despite this, players of the class continue to complain and the SPEC continues to get arguably unneeded buffs and changes.

Contrast with shaman who, while having at least a medium sized community has been rather quiet for the vast majority of the game's history on the forums. Thus, the classes' two dps specs have for the most part been under par in both aspects of the game. NOW, after a very VERY long time players of the specs have come to the forums in droves and you can very clearly see the results it has netted them.

If you want more specific I'll point you to the massive overhaul warlocks have gotten despite being on top in PvE and PvP all of Cataclysm coming into MoP.

Or the ridiculous overnerf warriors received in 5.1/5.2 due to the massive amount of bitching against them on the forums.

Or how hunters continue to do exceptionally well despite many MANY players complaining about them simply because the voice of hunters (the second most played class in the game) drowns out the rest.

Or how rogues, with their tiny community in Cataclysm were able to ride the OP train in 4.3 and got legendaries with the excuse from Blizzard, and I quote: "rogue representation is low, we are looking for ways to increase rogue representation" as a reply to rogues' cries for help based ENTIRELY on rogue representation and not the strength of the class. Which lead to a very tiny increase in overall rogue rep and massive increases in pve and pvp end game rogue rep.

This post can take the whole page of this thread AT LEAST if you want me to keep going.

[Brakthir]

Are you talking PVE or PVP? Because Hunters put out good damage but don't have much, if any raid utility in 25man raids, thus are usually sat for Locks/Mages/Shadow Priests/Boomkins. And if you seriously think they released a legendary (which, by the way, they start working on at the start of an expansion) because rogues whined, you are extremely silly.

[Flaks]

I'm talking both. The legendaries may not have directly been the effect of rogue QQ, but the retardedly over the top buffs sure were. The legendaries WERE cited as one of the ways of "increasing rogue representation" though as far as I could glean from what they were saying though I guess it might be a bit of a stretch. But that really doesn't matter because I do believe the rest of my examples as well as the hundreds or thousands of others have proved my point that Blizzard DOES in fact balance around QQ.

[Brakthir]

There is no changing the minds of people like you. You stamp your feet, fingers in ears and insist on conspiracy theories and whiners.