"you don't have any kills, sorry"... always hiding behind that same lame excuse

[Tomhvk]

This is my thought process when making a pug :

If they have LFR Gear with decent gems / enchants with no current raid experience, but they have 20+ kills of last teir, I will happily bring them, it shows they have raided properly before.

If they have no raid experience but it is an alt with good gems/enchants and they tell me the name of their main, ill do a quick double check on armory, make sure they have atleast raided before, and I am happy to bring them.

If they have LFR gear with no experience at all then I will not bring them. Or if they say 'o yeh my main is on a different server and i cant remember his name' then i tell them where to go.

[Deleted]

I dont care if it is a alt for that person! So because it is an alt, it is ok for that person to require the rest of the group to have the achi

[...]

The tacts for all fights differs for ranged, melee and tanks! If you dont have achi on said char, dont request one of the other 9/24 people!

If he has done it on his main (and not just 1 kill by buying from Russians) then he probably knows what to do. If he's not a complete moron he will pick up the tactics quickly, be it ranged, melee, tank, 10m, or 25m.

for them to be sure they do not wipe?

You can never be sure about that. You are trying however to minimize the risks.

The tacts for all fights differs for ranged, melee and tanks! If you dont have achi on said char, dont request one of the other 9/24 people! It is not "fine" for you to teach someone and wipe a couple of times because they dont have the achi, but the other 9/24 people must be content to wipe and teach your alt how to do the fight?

The chance you know the fight on your alt if you've farmed it on your main is higher than the chance you've never done it before, ever, on any character. The chance you know the fight if you've farmed it on the character you come on is higher than the chance you know the fight when you've farmed it on main but are new on alt

If you are so friggen leet, tell your RL to bring your alt on the next raid so THEY can carry you!!

I don't play alts in main raids unless they bring something unique to the table (ie. Demonic Gateway). I play 25m, and my RL has more than enough options to bring other mains over my main, including warlock.

[fangless]

The success of a pick up group for Throne, or in general, is very dependant on the level of success (especially immediately) to time invested.

If you try to join a group and have what looks like a fresh 90, that's a red flag to the group leader that you may very well have no idea what you're doing. They can't afford to bring fresh players in, as wiping 2-3 times on the first boss likely means the run will just disband.

[Vakna]

Start your own pug?

This, not that I don;t have sympathy for your current situation, but if you really REALLY want to raid and feel you can hold your own without having prior exp, then making your own group is the only logical step.

The needing xp to get xp is the vicious circle of WoW pug culture that will never end no matter how annoyed you become at it. Make of it what you can or stop trying, those are your only options.

[Deleted]

My guild did 3 alt runs this week, since it doesn't take long to clear ToT now. We had to pug for all 3 of those runs and I was posting in trade "LFM ToT full, fresh and fast clear. /W ilvl and exp". So I get a few whispers from people with nothing but LFR exp and I told them no. Most of them could understand, since I posted it would be a fast run and well, shit geared players with no experience will result in a not so fast or smooth run.

Anyways, this one guy kept whispering me. Pleading for me to bring his 490 DK with normal clear on his main. When I told him that the average ilvl of the group was way above that and that we weren't looking to boost random people, he got so butthurt that he went emo on me.

He said the same thing that several others have said in this thread - that "elitist endgame guilds makes it impossible for casual players to gear up". My response was, that getting to at least 500 ilvl doesn't require much more than farming LFR a few weeks. But this is what annoys me; the entitlement of some players. What gives you the right to tell me or others, who we should invite?

If I make a pug run with players who're 13/13 Heroic on their mains, why on earth would I bring some random crap geared person with LFR exp? I mean, I get decent players to join, cause they know my run will be fast and smooth. We have fun on TS, we have a fair loot distribution and while there may be the occasional wipe, we're clearing the instance and everyone's happy. So tell me, why you think you're entitled to a spot in my run (or any pug run for that matter), cause I just don't get it.

[Blachshma]

Tried to find a pug group with my alt healer who's 497 ilvl (never mind that in the last raid I outhealed on this char a 525 disc priest and a 528 resto druid), nobody would take me, despite my armory having 6/12 on alt. So yes, they don't even take people who have the kills, its all about the ilvl .

[Tekkommo]

Gem, Enchant and Reforge correctly, first impression is vital.

If you do neither of the above, don't expect to come on my pug run with 0 experience.

If you show you know your class, I'd probably take you.

Had a look at your armoury after writing the above.

I see your character passed the audit and you now have exp with 7 boss kills.

I guess it doesn't help being a Ret Paladin either.

What you say about guilds demanding EXP to raid with them is wrong (some will ofc), especially since I'm on the same server as you. The guild I currently raid with have taken trials on with 0 experience in ToT and the guild I was in before that, took players with no experience if they wrote a great app.

[Nobleshield]

If I make a pug run with players who're 13/13 Heroic on their mains, why on earth would I bring some random crap geared person with LFR exp? I mean, I get decent players to join, cause they know my run will be fast and smooth. We have fun on TS, we have a fair loot distribution and while there may be the occasional wipe, we're clearing the instance and everyone's happy. So tell me, why you think you're entitled to a spot in my run (or any pug run for that matter), cause I just don't get it.

To be fair though, this is part of the problem: People want "fast" runs of everything, so they expect (if not outright demand) high levels and "Players who're 13/13H on their mains" for their own benefit and enjoyment. Which do you think would be better received by the community:

1) Doing an alt run for other hardcore raiders, who don't need alt runs to gear up (as either their guild does them for guildies, or they just swap out to their alt since the content is on farm now and it doesn't matter if they get carried)

2) Doing a pug for the general populace, something like "Guild XXX (13/13H) is doing a normal ToT run with our alts to help the raiding community. Come get your start in Throne of Thunder with our tutelage. Going as far as we can with what we have available (full clear not guaranteed). Open rolls on loot. Need X, pst with iLevel and any ToT experience you have. Must have TS. We will explain fights."

#1 is selfish and only helps your own kind, who often don't need it anyways. #2 might get some good players who just haven't been able to get into ToT or are in bad guilds that don't raid more experience in the content, at little or no cost to you since the content is over and done for you. Of course, you aren't obligated to do anything for the community, which is why I think so many people demand outgearing and "fast runs" and the like, because they don't care about a thriving community so long as they benefit from what they're doing.

[Deleted]

And folks wonder why LFR is so popular.

This.

Why even bother dealing with such things, when there's LFR around?
Sure, normal mode gear is better, but imo, it's not worth it - especially under such circumstances.

[TrollShaman]

This.

Why even bother dealing with such things, when there's LFR around?
Sure, normal mode gear is better, but imo, it's not worth it - especially under such circumstances.

Some people, like me, would like to take it to the next level which has existed long before LFR did. Don't forget there may be potentially good raiders who are bored of LFR because sometimes it gets too easy and they'd like to try a new environment.

[Deleted]

Reminds me of my guild's RBG. 1st they said they won't take me because: I'm a melee, don't have high ratings and my gear isn't full tyranical. I got the gear and ratings and my role inside the RBGs was as an alarm post near a flag. I certainly needed all that crap just to sit around and call incomings.

[Lord Pebbleton]

I can understand they want to be sure with the people they pick, but they don't even give you a chance to show what you're worth.

Once, they were forming a run for Firelands Heroic on Openraid. I applied saying i'd do my best. I got a spot with just 3/7 heroic experience.
I was second-third on dps throughout the raid, and when we wiped it wasn't my fault even if i just read tactics, not having experience.
Two hours later i was a Firelord.
Moral of the story? It is a game. I've seen heroic equipped people being the worst players around just because they had time to raid in the evening. Until the community doesn't take its risks, i'm sticking to LFR, and i don't give a damn if someone says LFR is a bad thing. Most times it's the same people who don't take you in without experience. It is our only option.

Enough said.

[Deleted]

To be fair though, this is part of the problem: People want "fast" runs of everything, so they expect (if not outright demand) high levels and "Players who're 13/13H on their mains" for their own benefit and enjoyment. Which do you think would be better received by the community:

1) Doing an alt run for other hardcore raiders, who don't need alt runs to gear up (as either their guild does them for guildies, or they just swap out to their alt since the content is on farm now and it doesn't matter if they get carried)

2) Doing a pug for the general populace, something like "Guild XXX (13/13H) is doing a normal ToT run with our alts to help the raiding community. Come get your start in Throne of Thunder with our tutelage. Going as far as we can with what we have available (full clear not guaranteed). Open rolls on loot. Need X, pst with iLevel and any ToT experience you have. Must have TS. We will explain fights."

#1 is selfish and only helps your own kind, who often don't need it anyways. #2 might get some good players who just haven't been able to get into ToT or are in bad guilds that don't raid more experience in the content, at little or no cost to you since the content is over and done for you. Of course, you aren't obligated to do anything for the community, which is why I think so many people demand outgearing and "fast runs" and the like, because they don't care about a thriving community so long as they benefit from what they're doing.

I get what you're saying and back in Wrath I actually hosted Naxx 10 and 25 man pug runs every week, where I would bring 2-3 inexperienced and undergeared players on 25 man and 1-2 on 10 man every week. So that new players or alts would get a chance to step into raiding. Keep in mind, this was before LFR though. But back then, people knew that first impression matters. That they were gemmed and enchanted mattered.

Now, we have LFR for new players and LFR serves as a stepping stone for a lot of players, just wanting to get into Normal mode guilds.

What you suggest that a guild like mine should do, is basically what a lot of players would offer to pay us to do - carrying them to free kills. And we don't seven sell runs, cause well, we don't wanna boost random people to something they did not earn.

You're arguing that a guild like mine doesn't even need to gear alts but that's not really true. We don't bring alts into our main run, unless we need a specific class i.e Disc Priest or Warlock for instance. Other than that, we don't do that. Only just now, we're starting to plan Heroic alt runs to gear our main alts for the next Tier.

But you call option 1 selfish, while option 2 is for the better of the whole raiding population. But is it not selfish to expect to be carried to gear and experience? I mean, in one of the alt runs we did, we had a tank who was so shit, that we kept wiping on Lei Shen and had to give up in the end. This reset we brought 2 pugs, one had 9/12 Normal exp and I invited him cause I thought he could pull his weight with ilvl 517 ish. Turned out that the dude was trying Fire for the first time and did less dps than my 505 DK tank that I have no clue how to play - doing around 65k on bosses. And this is why I personally don't want to bring players with crap gear or no experience, cause this is what you risk getting.

Generally speaking, I know that there's good players around who just haven't gotten the chance to prove it. But a lot of guilds do actually give inexperienced players a chance. When we were 7/13 Heroic, we accepted a Mage and an Spriest for trial. I'm not even sure the Mage had a full normal clear and the Spriest had only Heroic Jin'rokh. But because their applications were good, they were given the chance.

It's just that it requires some footwork, if you want to be given a chance. And players who can't make a good application, demonstrating in-depth knowledge of their class, don't know what WoL is and generally make a crap application just won't be given that chance. But who's fault is that?

Anyways, I still don't think it's fair to put the responsibility of the general raiding population on end game guilds. Cause what's stopping people from forming their own pug? Is it that it might be hard for someone with nothing but LFR exp to get other equally experienced/geared players to join - knowing that the chance of success might not be that high?

[Nobleshield]

True but you said yourself that LFR experience isn't enough. I do see your point though. Also I would have thought that people pay for heroic carries, not normals. I mean of course you are under no obligation to do anything for the community, but there's also an issue with people not being experienced enough for content and personally I would have loved when I was inexperienced for a high-end guild to host a normal run to get people's feet wet without expecting compensation.

[Deleted]

True but you said yourself that LFR experience isn't enough. I do see your point though.

No, not in itself. But I was referring to the easiness of gearing up and used it as an example when telling about the ilvl 490 dude who wanted a spot and got upset when I said no. I also said, that we did in fact bring a player who hadn't done more than 9/12 Normal. The other pug was an ex Apex with several server first achievements like Lich King Heroic 25 etc.

But I think that the "optimal" solution lies somewhere between. As in, maybe more people need to give less experienced players a chance - assuming they have decent gear with gems, reforge and enchants etc (which is kinda what my own guild has been doing to some extend) and then inexperienced players putting in the effort and not being cheap with a Windsong on a 502 wep in stead of Dancing Steel/Jade Spirit etc.

I just don't think it's fair to put all the blame on the raiders here and I definitely won't be forced into bringing crap geared players with no exp to avoid being called all sorts of names.

[Nobleshield]

But I think that the "optimal" solution lies somewhere between. As in, maybe more people need to give less experienced players a chance - assuming they have decent gear with gems, reforge and enchants etc (which is kinda what my own guild has been doing to some extend) and then inexperienced players putting in the effort and not being cheap with a Windsong on a 502 wep in stead of Dancing Steel/Jade Spirit etc.

I just don't think it's fair to put all the blame on the raiders here and I definitely won't be forced into bringing crap geared players with no exp to avoid being called all sorts of names.

Agreed, but I can't really fault people for going cheap on some enchants; the prices of the higher-end ones (at least on my realm) are outright ridiculous. For instance, Dancing Steel goes for just under 3k, which makes it crazy expensive for anything other than near-BiS weapons. Gems tend to sell for 300-500g which while not a lot can get very expensive when you are looking at several.

The blame doesn't lie on any one person, but a lot of raider types do look down on people with just LFR experience, perhaps without realizing those people have to start somewhere and someone who has done all the fights on LFR is at least a step better than someone who has no experience or has just watched videos without actually seeing it in action. On the flip side a lot of inexperienced/undergeared people expect or demand to be able to join any group they want, instead of managing expectations. A heroic guild's alt run is much less likely to take someone without solid experience than a random trade "Let's down a handful of bosses and get some upgrades" run.

[Deleted]

Difficult. Usually after long breaks (had 2 in WoW) I rely on people that know me (and thus know that I can pull my weight) to hook me up with a raid spot in one of their alt runs. Then look where the path takes me.

If you have no friends that raid at all I can see how there is a big problem.

However your timing is really bad. Even most PuGs on my realm can clear the place on normal by now. Personally I'd be hard pressed to take someone who I don't know with neither gear (meaning no normal gear) and no experience over the other 1000 people in trade chat with better referances.

My advice is: Make a few friends and start out your own run.
(How to make friends in WoW in its current state however I really cannot say.)

[Drummerboy]

If you're in the right place at the right time you can find a good pug. And there are things you can do to make sure you're in the right place too. I put some of my alts in an insanely large raiding (6000+ members) guild in hopes that I could fill my "off-time" with more casual raiding. The guild is part of a raiding podcast community so most everyone in the guild has the same aspirations of raiding.

One night I was looking for a ToT pug in that alt guild and couldn't find one...so I started my own. I only required above 495 ilvl and at least ToT LFR experience. I picked up a mix of people ranging from 1/12 to 7/12 (I have a full clear experience). We went 5/12.

On the other hand I would never start a ToT pug on my main's server because...well... I've been in recent groups that wiped on Sha. There is a difference between being inexperienced and just being a terrible player. Since my faction can't even kill Sha (much less Oondasta) then I won't even bother with pugging LFR.

The point is if you're in the wrong guild,faction or server you probably will never find a pug. May be the virtual realms will make this better. If the virtual realms just combine a bunch a small servers I doubt it will because the more raiding driven players have already transfered off to better servers. We'll just end up with a concentration of terrible players who will still wipe on Sha.

[kamuimac]

Agreed, but I can't really fault people for going cheap on some enchants; the prices of the higher-end ones (at least on my realm) are outright ridiculous. For instance, Dancing Steel goes for just under 3k, which makes it crazy expensive for anything other than near-BiS weapons. Gems tend to sell for 300-500g which while not a lot can get very expensive when you are looking at several.

.

Hc raiders buy stuff from bAH for hundred of thousand of gold and u say 3k is expensive - just dont :/ if u dont care about ur gear to famr some gold to but enchants/gems dont expect people carrying u while u underperform ;/

[Nobleshield]

I don't know about you, but farming gold doesn't seem trivially easy for me. I can get some via dailies and when I get lucky on the AH, but I don't play the AH like some people do to make hundreds of thousands; I think the most I've ever had was about 20k and I used half of that to powerlevel professions. Besides, there's usually a negligible difference between the high-end and the second-best enchants that doesn't matter to most people outside of the top progression raiders. Gems are pretty much the only exception where you really don't want to use the green-quality gems except in gear that you plan to replace in a couple of runs.