Warlock patch 5.4 discussion

[Deleted]

Assuming for demonology warlocks that the new AD works like HoG, considering the recharging. This seems to me a pretty trivial buff for me, basically it only gives us an option to burn an extra DS at the moment we choose the best (maybe trinket+ banner under 25%?). How ever the KJC is even more trivial due to the fact that it won't allow us to cast soul fire while moving. With MF also getting a "slight" nerf for demonology, i don't see any of the talents being a must have, if AD:s charges don't have separate recharge timers. Unless the reworked DS glyph is something astounding this remake of the level 90 talents is going to be a complete disaster for demonology(at the moment), and force us to a even more proc based play style. Someone might say that with all the talents being pretty much even, blizzard has done a good job...

[Shodan30]

If they had kept KJC the way it use to be, i probably would still be using it for destro even if AV/AD is a better dps option. the nerfed version still helps some 'technical' issues about warlock dps on the move, however the 'fun' part that we are losing is still gone. I can no longer resummon my pet on the move (except the insta resummon), casting chaos bolts and immolates or summon my healthstone fountain while everyone runs back from a wipe, etc, etc. These are quality of life changes to the warlock, not technical dps results and with those removed, KJC becomes less viable. I've switched from KJC to the AOE size talent for primordius fights, and i have to make myself forget that i cant start casting a CB and then move. sure the fights reasonably easy for raid level gear right now, but so many of the ToT fights are geared for movement that this is going to take some time getting use to.

To the comment earlier about how locks thought KJC was vital, and now they flock elsewhere, you forget that the new KJC is nowhere near the same as the old. The new does not compare, and yes we are still losing that advantage, so warlocks return to being mages with better style. Its an easier decision to change talents to something else then it was, and if KJC was not nerfed, it would be a much harder decision for lots of warlocks then it is now.

[Kildragon]

@Kildragon

Not useless, but far from better choice.
They gave to it the same treatment grimoire of sac got, it's still usefull, but under certain conditions, very limited talent.

It's essentially useless now. Which spec is going to take it? Demo PvE will be taking either AD or MF depending on the fight. Demo PvP will be taking AD since CCs aren't affected by KJC anymore. Affliction and destruction PvE are in the exact same boat as demo pve. AD is just looking very powerful and if they fix MF for destro you'll want to take it for destro AoE as well. The fel flame buff and affliction changes would've reduced the value of KJC as is on live anyways. As for PvP, CC missing from KJC is already big enough to make it nearly useless. Add the AD changes and you'll never want to take KJC. They already ruined MF for PvP since its value for demo was in the increased radius for HoG/chaos wave and its value for destro was in both RoG ember generation and F&B aoe damage in RBGs.

[Grubjuice]

As for your last statement, almost all AoE situations are stand still. Being able to cast F&B incinerate while moving would certainly not beat out the benefit of the increased radius on RoF plus the extra damage. This is especially true since you can already cast RoF and F&B conflag while moving and KJC doesn't give you a damage increase.

Think about all the that time spent running dungeons to valor cap for the week where you tank refuses to stop for even a second as he rushes through the dungeon you are just casting FnB Incinerate the whole time!

no, i can think of sufficient situations where KJC+FnB will be more useful than MF.

[Deleted]

As for AoEing while moving Megaera comes to mind as a great example, while MF was almost useless to have.

[Cyner]

Interesting new glyph:

Glyph of Havoc Havoc gains 3 additional charges, but the cooldown is increased by 35 seconds.Major Glyph.

[Szarala]

Honestly, I'm still holding out hope that the current proposed KJC just becomes baseline (I'll even take the snare back), and they just come up with something entirely new in its place for the talent.

[Grubjuice]

Honestly, I'm still holding out hope that the current proposed KJC just becomes baseline (I'll even take the snare back), and they just come up with something entirely new in its place for the talent.

they made Glyph of Lightning Bolt baseline, and they made Aspect of the Fox baseline.

They would have to give something to Priests, Druids and mages though.

[Kildragon]

Assuming for demonology warlocks that the new AD works like HoG, considering the recharging. This seems to me a pretty trivial buff for me, basically it only gives us an option to burn an extra DS at the moment we choose the best (maybe trinket+ banner under 25%?). How ever the KJC is even more trivial due to the fact that it won't allow us to cast soul fire while moving. With MF also getting a "slight" nerf for demonology, i don't see any of the talents being a must have, if AD:s charges don't have separate recharge timers. Unless the reworked DS glyph is something astounding this remake of the level 90 talents is going to be a complete disaster for demonology(at the moment), and force us to a even more proc based play style. Someone might say that with all the talents being pretty much even, blizzard has done a good job...

As soon as you use DS that charge will start recharging. Therefore you can use DS in the opener, which starts the CD, use charge #2 a minute in, use charge #1 another minute after, etc.

Now I could be wrong but usually charges have their own CD. I haven't played in a little while, but can you conflag, 6 seconds later conflag again, 6 seconds later conflag again due to charge #1 finishing its CD then 6 seconds after again when charge #2 finishes its CD. Or does the second charge only start its CD once the first one finishes? So after the third conflag we'd have to wait 12 seconds for the next conflag and then 12 for each one after or 24 sec total for both charges to be regained. Cause don't double charge and roll have each charge on its own CD?

I guess that would be something we have to confirm. Does DS have two charges with each on its own CD, essentially letting us use it once a minute, or do the charges share a refresh timer, only giving us one extra DS throughout the fight but giving us a lot more control over when to use it.

[Deleted]

As soon as you use DS that charge will start recharging. Therefore you can use DS in the opener, which starts the CD, use charge #2 a minute in, use charge #1 another minute after, etc.

Now I could be wrong but usually charges have their own CD. I haven't played in a little while, but can you conflag, 6 seconds later conflag again, 6 seconds later conflag again due to charge #1 finishing its CD then 6 seconds after again when charge #2 finishes its CD. Or does the second charge only start its CD once the first one finishes? So after the third conflag we'd have to wait 12 seconds for the next conflag and then 12 for each one after or 24 sec total for both charges to be regained. Cause don't double charge and roll have each charge on its own CD?

I guess that would be something we have to confirm. Does DS have two charges with each on its own CD, essentially letting us use it once a minute, or do the charges share a refresh timer, only giving us one extra DS throughout the fight but giving us a lot more control over when to use it.

Share a recharge timer, so its one more per fight,

[TyrianFC]

Assuming for demonology warlocks that the new AD works like HoG, considering the recharging. This seems to me a pretty trivial buff for me, basically it only gives us an option to burn an extra DS at the moment we choose the best (maybe trinket+ banner under 25%?). How ever the KJC is even more trivial due to the fact that it won't allow us to cast soul fire while moving. With MF also getting a "slight" nerf for demonology, i don't see any of the talents being a must have, if AD:s charges don't have separate recharge timers. Unless the reworked DS glyph is something astounding this remake of the level 90 talents is going to be a complete disaster for demonology(at the moment), and force us to a even more proc based play style. Someone might say that with all the talents being pretty much even, blizzard has done a good job...

Well said. In some fights the extra DS charge will prove worthwhile, while in others trivial. In some fights having KJC movement will be essential, others unnecessary. And in niche fights MF will be the same.

Seems to me like Blizzard has had great success redesigning this tier. Instead of 'take KJC - der' its now an actual choice with reasoning required. You know its worked because people here are bickering and arguing over what to take and which is better/more useful now.

[Grubjuice]

I guess that would be something we have to confirm. Does DS have two charges with each on its own CD, essentially letting us use it once a minute, or do the charges share a refresh timer, only giving us one extra DS throughout the fight but giving us a lot more control over when to use it.

If it is anything like Clemency (and it sounds exactly like Clemency) you can't have two charges independently recharging.

with Clemency if you use both charges of a hand spell then the first starts recharging as soon as the first is cast, but the secong charge does not start recharging until the first is done.

[Szarala]

they made Glyph of Lightning Bolt baseline, and they made Aspect of the Fox baseline.

They would have to give something to Priests, Druids and mages though.

I'd be all for changing the Mind Flay glyph to having it be a cast on the move (I must be missing something because I don't understand what makes the current Mind Flay glyph attractive at all).

Druids are fine, honestly, between Starsurge procs and Lunar Shower.

Screw mages.

[Kildragon]

Think about all the that time spent running dungeons to valor cap for the week where you tank refuses to stop for even a second as he rushes through the dungeon you are just casting FnB Incinerate the whole time!

no, i can think of sufficient situations where KJC+FnB will be more useful than MF.

Sorry, I was thinking of situations were optimal damage matters. KJC might be useful while doing dailies or dungeons cause it will save you a few minutes through mobile dps when your tank is being an idiot. However your aoe trash performance in randoms is hardly something that matters when discussing viability of a talent. In random dungeons, AD would probably be better anyways, seeing how you could get 2 dark souls into a single boss.

In any serious AoE situation such as a progression boss or challenge modes, MF will be superior since your tank won't be a dick and hopefully your group is coordinated enough for you to not have to chase mobs around the dungeon.

[Szarala]

Well said. In some fights the extra DS charge will prove worthwhile, while in others trivial. In some fights having KJC movement will be essential, others unnecessary. And in niche fights MF will be the same.

Seems to me like Blizzard has had great success redesigning this tier. Instead of 'take KJC - der' its now an actual choice with reasoning required. You know its worked because people here are bickering and arguing over what to take and which is better/more useful now.

I'm not seeing a real good argument for the new KJC being "essential" in any encounter, or even being all that desirable versus the other two.

..also, did they change Soul Link again, or was the wording of the new version always "20% split with the pet"?

[Grubjuice]

Sorry, I was thinking of situations were optimal damage matters. KJC might be useful while doing dailies or dungeons cause it will save you a few minutes through mobile dps when your tank is being an idiot. However your aoe trash performance in randoms is hardly something that matters when discussing viability of a talent. In random dungeons, AD would probably be better anyways, seeing how you could get 2 dark souls into a single boss.

In any serious AoE situation such as a progression boss or challenge modes, MF will be superior since your tank won't be a dick and hopefully your group is coordinated enough for you to not have to chase mobs around the dungeon.

As for AoEing while moving Megaera comes to mind as a great example, while MF was almost useless to have.

I shall defer to the master.

[Deleted]

So on another note, that change to demo's Dark soul now makes it so its no longer effected by amp, thats quite interesting.

Used to be rating, now just flat 30% (Trinket only effects rating)

[Kildragon]

Well said. In some fights the extra DS charge will prove worthwhile, while in others trivial. In some fights having KJC movement will be essential, others unnecessary. And in niche fights MF will be the same.

Seems to me like Blizzard has had great success redesigning this tier. Instead of 'take KJC - der' its now an actual choice with reasoning required. You know its worked because people here are bickering and arguing over what to take and which is better/more useful now.

In an ideal world yes, all three talents would be useful. People aren't asking for all three talents to be OP though. Actually read the posts rather than making false comments which makes you look ignorant and like a dick.

Our concern so far has been with the effects that the combination of MF + AD changes, fel flame buffs, affliction changes, and KJC is going to have. Originally, the KJC nerf was warranted, putting it in line with the old MF and AV. After the MF and AV changes on top of the fel flame buff and affliction changes however, KJC became by far the weakest choice in the tier, becoming essentially irrelevant for any kind of serious content.

We simply want all three talents to be viable choices. In the current ptr iteration, KJC is b useless.

[Grubjuice]

So on another note, that change to demo's Dark soul now makes it so its no longer effected by amp, thats quite interesting.

Used to be rating, now just flat 30% (Trinket only effects rating)

that sounds like a fix, since the other specs version of DS did not benefit from the trinket. Ideally the spec should not be balanced around how a trinket idiosyncratically synergizes with a spec-ability.

let's hope demo is re-balanced to compensate

[Deleted]

I'm not seeing a real good argument for the new KJC being "essential" in any encounter, or even being all that desirable versus the other two.

Only thing that would make KJC essential for demonology, would be a Lei shen Heroic type fight, where your dps capability while standing still is extremely limited and you need to pool a steady amount of DF for AoE purposes, where the targets are clumped. This would mean that KJC would give an advantage over MF and AD, because the targets aren't spread, and due to high movement requirements, pooling DF with soul fire isn't an option and fel flame doesn't generate enough DF to compete with KJC shadow bolt, making KJC "essential" for the best performance.