[spoiler] Ghostcrawler confirms ridiculous Alliance outcome in 5.4

[heroim]

They may have had their reasons; but they can't blame the Night Elves for wanting to defend their ancient forests. Just what did the Orcs need all that wood for, exactly? The Night Elves certainly managed to get by just fine without decimating the place. If it is the case that they needed the wood to fuel their "Horde War Machine", then the aforementioned war machine can't claim to be surprised when it finds itself encountering war at the hands of the Night Elves who defend their homes.

the night elves attacked the orc loggers to protect some trees that at the start of the very next mission showed cinarious wave his hand and all the trees grew back

[Airwaves]

I guess you missed all of classic through wrath then eh?

That wasn't a war. There was a few skirmishes but the horde and alliance were still at peace then and traded. After wc3 the orcs were given some land there but not much. Anyway the twilights hammer tricked both sides so if it wasn't for them the alliance wouldn't have stopped trading with the horde. So the twilights hammer is to blame not the horde or the alliance.

[Penguintamer]

People just need to get over it and accept the obvious fact that 'Siege of Orgrimmar' is a raid that is going to be entered by both the Horde and Alliance playerbases, meaning that the Alliance aren't defeating the Horde because the Horde is standing right by their side. You're. Only. Killing. Garrosh.

[Gambit5555]

History shows that when conquering nations turn into oppressor nations things do not go well for either the conquering nation of the oppressed peoples. On the other hand conquering nations that offer help in rebuilding and avoiding the worst excesses of retribution and reparations do much better and profit from the gesture.

This outcome in terms of the game is not surprising in the least. Particularly if the next expansion, as rumored, will require more in the way of co-operation between factions.

The difference is, at the end of WW2, which was used in an example earlier, the Allies didn't tell Germany, "alright, we'll let you live in peace, and you can continue invading Poland, France, and bombing England, i know y'all are busy trying to conquer lands, just keep at it , you guys are doing great" The issue here is that the Horde is still actively invading and taking over Alliance territories even though we've just taken out the Warchief. If hordies want to pretend that this isnt pathetic, then they have unrealistic views of what players should be able to expect. Alliance players have been at war with the Horde for almost ten years, we've just successfully taken out the Horde Warchief, and now we get to go back to watching to Horde continue to wipeout Gilneas, and takeover Andorhal. Yay Alliance.

[Sett]

It has dawned on me that there might be some answers to this in the cut scene for Garrosh's fall. GC and the other devs aren't probably going to post the results of that yet.




/tries to be a little hopeful

[rpdrichard]

They were not destroying the forest or killing there people till after they refused to trade with them. Because it was either kill the night elves and take there land OR watch there people stave to death. Even Thrall would have taken the same step to invade ashenvale if he was put in the same place as hellscream, both had to look after there people first and foremost.

Maybe the night elves were reluctant to trade with the orcs because the first thing they did when they arrived to their forest was start slaugthering their people, I never saw any attemp of the orcs to negotiate with the elves even under Thrall leadership

[Hitei]

They needed to clear the wood for farms so they could feed there people.

Yes. Clearly they had to cut down all the trees to make a farm, instead of using the Southfury river that runs right next to their capital and along the entire length of Durotar for irrigation to farm in their own territories. They also couldn't set up farms in other Horde held territories, like western STV, Mulgore, Silverpine, because that would involve cooperation, and it's such a pain to have to ship supplies... Easier to just slaughter the Night Elves and cut down their forests for land that's closer.

[Austilias]

People just need to get over it and accept the obvious fact that 'Siege of Orgrimmar' is a raid that is going to be entered by both the Horde and Alliance playerbases, meaning that the Alliance aren't defeating the Horde because the Horde is standing right by their side. You're. Only. Killing. Garrosh.

That's a relief. For a minute there I thought we were going to be like our Horde counterparts who had the pleasure of bombing Theramore, destroying Gilneas and turning Southshore into a puddle. Thankfully we're only helping the Horde, phew!

[Aquamonkey]

Maybe the night elves were reluctant to trade with the orcs because the first thing they did when they arrived to their forest was start slaugthering their people, I never saw any attemp of the orcs to negotiate with the elves even under Thrall leadership

No. The first thing the Orcs did when they got to Ashenvale was chop down some trees (something the Goblins were already doing). They didn't know anything about the inhabitants there. They just heard creepy whispers from the trees. The NElves attacked first.

[Frontenac]

A Horde centric expansion? The Alliance raiding the Horde capital city and defeating their leader within a Horde centric expansion? Are you out of your mind?

If the Horde had conquered Stormwind and left the population alone you would also call it a Horde centric expansion I bet.
You aren't satisfied until the Horde is completely gone from the world, are you? Well, I have to give you a little hint, it's never going to happen.

The core of the game is Horde vs Alliance, there can NEVER be a true winner. So stop hoping for it.

It is a Horde-centric expansion because the story revolves around Horde concerns and is driven by Horde characters, in which the Alliance role is to help other Horde characters overthrow their despot. Its not the Horde rebels, that minority in the Horde, that helps the Alliance, no, its the Alliance who is at the service of the rag tag band of rebels...

Just like WotLK was Alliance-centric because its story revolved around Alliance characters and Alliance lore, where you help an Alliance drop-off (Tirion), aided by the undead son of an Alliance hero (Mograine) to kill an Alliance traitor (Arthas). In the final fight, an Alliance ghost (Terenas) helps you to kill his son who is replaced as Lich King by a fallen alliance hero (Bolvar).

[Austilias]

Maybe the night elves were reluctant to trade with the orcs because the first thing they did when they arrived to their forest was start slaugthering their people, I never saw any attemp of the orcs to negotiate with the elves even under Thrall leadership

The first thing the Orcs did upon arriving on Azeroth was to start slaughtering people, never mind when they began their campaign in Ashenvale. It's like people forget just why the Orcs have the reputation they do.

[Knarg]

Just gotta love the Alliance whining in this thread.

"Except for all the stuff the Alliance got, WHAT DID THE ALLIANCE GET???"

I said before this expansion even came out that if there was ever a siege on Orgrimmar that some Alliance would gripe that the cannonballs needed to batter down the walls would be too heavy, and it's depressing to see how right I was.

Yeesh.

[Not Againnn]

alliance was there to get rid of the kor'kron or else they wouldn't of sided with the rebellion. ah durr

[Austilias]

"Except for all the stuff the Alliance got, WHAT DID THE ALLIANCE GET???"

You could get Knaak to write a whole series of novels wherein the Alliance get victory after victory. Beyond the small niche who actually read the novels, however, none of this would be noticed by the millions of people who actually play the WoW game wherein the only victories we're really seeing implemented in the game world are those of the Horde.

[Heladys]

You could get Knaak to write a whole series of novels wherein the Alliance get victory after victory.

He'll pretty much work for cheeseburgers given how his career arc has gone.

[rpdrichard]

It is a Horde-centric expansion because the story revolves around Horde concerns and is driven by Horde characters, in which the Alliance role is to help other Horde characters overthrow their despot. Its not the Horde rebels, that minority in the Horde, that helps the Alliance, no, its the Alliance who is at the service of the rag tag band of rebels...

Just like WotLK was Alliance-centric because its story revolved around Alliance characters and Alliance lore, where you help an Alliance drop-off (Tirion), aided by the undead son of an Alliance hero (Mograine) to kill an Alliance traitor (Arthas). In the final fight, an Alliance ghost (Terenas) helps you to kill his son who is replaced as Lich King by a fallen alliance hero (Bolvar).

And the horde got no lore development during wrath? of course they did with the forsaken and the orcs mainly, now the only alliance character you mentioned is Bolvar, the others are neutral since vanilla (Tirion, Mograine), and Arthas is as much alliance as Cho'gall is horde

[Mocha]

@Ghostcrawler @CM_Zarhym @DaveKosak @ChrisMetzen The fact that the Alliance gives the Horde Org back with no concessions or reparations suck

@greenkamrian @CM_Zarhym @DaveKosak @ChrisMetzen It's an important Jaina vs Vyrian moment. Who is to say the High King made the right call?

@Ghostcrawler Do Allies gain NOTHING from this war except tens of 1000s dead and their lands stolen? Not even in lore? Goblins keep Azshara

@kyrtfurey Lore-wise we could say that zones changed hands but wouldn't it be lame once you visited them and saw that was not the case?


So that's fucking it.

Our "great fist pump" moment we were promised is walking out of the city with no terms of peace agreed and no lands returned.

As usual the alliance were just along for the ride and gained absolutely nothing from it.

Who cares about Ashenvale getting burnt down? Gilneas ravaged? Our men turned by Valkyr into Forsaken? Our Prince having his body crushed?

Let's do the sporting thing and leave the horde to recover and hold onto everything they took.

A great end to 2 horde centric expansions

I don't know why ANYONE would think that the Alliance won a WAR. The Alliance doesn't defeat the Horde in Orgrimmar; they defeat Garrosh and a bunch of fanatical Orcs. Orcs comprise only 1/7 of the races that make up the Horde, and not all Orcs were with Garrosh. The Alliance win a BATTLE against Garrrosh, while fighting ALONG-SIDE the REAL Horde.

To win a war with the Horde the Alliance would still have to defeat the vast majority of the Horde still remaining. Which would lead to much more death on both sides, and fighting for years. Varian didn't allow the Horde to pick a new Warchief; he had no choice. While the Alliance would have had an advantage with the Horde being leader-less, someone would have picked up the mantle quick enough, and the bloodshed would have continued...and for what? Most of the most recent reasons for increased fighting, and the "war" between Horde and Alliance is pretty much directly the result of decisions and actions taken by Garrosh; who is now dead (I think/hope he dies). If he hadn't been the Warchief; there would have been no war, period.

So, for Alliance player, enjoy your battle victory that was won in part through working with the real Horde. I'll remember your contributions fondly as I'm relieving myself in the woods of Ashenvale. FOR THE HORDE!

[Noujou]

Blizzard, rather than actually making 'the Horde' the bad guys, instead opted for the Horde to be 'the good guys' who were just hijacked by the Kor'kron

There is no "good guys, bad guys" in a mmo...at least i don't believe so...there are the more civilized and the lesser civilized, aka ally and horde....rarely do people like playing the "bad guys"...so i don't know how you could say "ally" is the good guy and "horde" are the bad guys.

[Talen]

Just gotta love the Alliance whining in this thread.

"Except for all the stuff the Alliance got, WHAT DID THE ALLIANCE GET???"

No additional security for their people.
No peace treaty.
No lands returned.
No forces disbanded.

What exactly did the Alliance gain from this except the warm glow of knowing they made their mortal enemy stronger and more united than ever?

EJL

[Ephinia]

Actually Theramore is current content. Go check out those spiffy scenarios and see the one that's the battle that leads to Theramore being cratered. The original Theramore was old world content until it was blasted off the map at the end of Cataclysm. I was hoping to see the Alliance do something similar to Stonard but I guess the place was too small to make it worth the effort.

That's my point. He was claiming Dalaran -wasn't- current content, while claiming Theramore -is-.