[spoiler] Ghostcrawler confirms ridiculous Alliance outcome in 5.4

[Austilias]

What exactly did the Alliance gain from this except the warm glow of knowing they made their mortal enemy stronger and more united than ever?

What do you mean? The Alliance is going to be the 'better man' of course, and with a stiff upper lip they'll proudly leave Orgrimmar intact once they've helped the Horde get rid of their scapegoat. That's gotta count for something, right? A misguided and ultimately meaningless sense of moral superiority, perhaps.

[Frontenac]

And the horde got no lore development during wrath? of course they did with the forsaken and the orcs mainly, now the only alliance character you mentioned is Bolvar, the others are neutral since vanilla (Tirion, Mograine), and Arthas is as much alliance as Cho'gall is horde

The Alliance had some lore development in MoP too. But the main story revolved around the Horde, since the Big Bad is the Horde leader. As for Tirion, Mograine, Arthas and Terenas, even though they are not technically Alliance characters now, they were part of the Alliance in some part of their stories. Also, yes, Cho'gall is part of Horde lore, like it or not. He was created by Gul'dan and the Twilight's Hammer was a clan of the Horde. He's much more a Horde character than an Alliance one.

[xskarma]

I'd like to see the actual end of the Garrosh fight cut scene before I judge what the outcome of the story is. If the Alliance can walk away from that the moral victors then I'll be okay with it, mostly.

The whole moral of Mists has been "What are you fighting for" and the consequences of war. It would go against everything Blizzard has been telling us for the Alliance to take over Orgrimmar and try to subjugate the Horde remains. This war needs to end as quickly and as painlessly as possible, while still taking care of those that caused this mess. We do that, so then it's the Alliance's time to say "We've done what we came for, and now it's time to build a better future, for both factions" so something terrible like this doesn't happen again.

I'll be mostly okay with all this if we walk away from this knowing that we got Garrosh, and that there'll never be another Garrosh again.

[Aquamonkey]

That's my point. He was claiming Dalaran -wasn't- current content, while claiming Theramore -is-.

There's a difference between turning a small, relatively insignificant quest hub into a crater with no NPCs to dialogue with during a pre-expansion event Vs. changing the major focus of an entire expansion and having to rewrite the NPCs of the whole city during a small content patch. Theramore's removal through phasing doesn't have massive repercussions for the rest of the zone/continent.

So you didn't do the Theramore quests before doing the scenario? No big deal.
So you didn't do the Dalaran stuff before doing the 5.1 questline? Too bad, the entire expansion's worth of content is now broken without massive overhaul by Blizzard.

[Austilias]

We do that, so then it's the Alliance's time to say "We've done what we came for, and now it's time to build a better future, for both factions" so something terrible like this doesn't happen again.

I am sure the citizens of Gilneas, Southshore, Theramore and various other places would be relieved to know how valiantly they were avenged. All Mists of Pandaria is going to teach us is that your faction can commit the most obscene crimes and get away with it, if your counterparts value morals and ethics more than yours. I look forward to the next Horde genocide in the near future; no guesses for who'll be behind it (Sylvanas; who after having died 3 times thus far, is somehow still around).

[Every Pwny]

Or both the alliance and horde can both live there in peace and start trading between each other again. The horde still needs land there or be able to trade with the night elves or there people will go back to starving. The only reason hellscream invaded Ashenvale was to stop his people from staving to death. His invasion there was justified because it was that or have his people starve to death. And it was all started because the night elves refused to trade with the orcs.

They've taken Azshara and have been using the resources and trees there, mainly to build a lot of warmachines. But They are more than fine without Ashenvale.

[Ephinia]

There's a difference between turning a small, relatively insignificant quest hub into a crater with no NPCs to dialogue with during a pre-expansion event Vs. changing the major focus of an entire expansion and having to rewrite the NPCs of the whole city during a small content patch. Theramore's removal through phasing doesn't have massive repercussions for the rest of the zone/continent.

So you didn't do the Theramore quests before doing the scenario? No big deal.
So you didn't do the Dalaran stuff before doing the 5.1 questline? Too bad, the entire expansion's worth of content is now broken without massive overhaul by Blizzard.

You are saying Blizzard is completely incapeable of doing what they did with Theramore, having it so Dalaran is phased for your character after these quests, with a nearby NPC that allows you to return to the old version of it whenever you want?

[Deleted]

For the horde

[Airwaves]

The first thing the Orcs did upon arriving on Azeroth was to start slaughtering people, never mind when they began their campaign in Ashenvale. It's like people forget just why the Orcs have the reputation they do.

That wasn't the "orcs" it was the legion controlled orcs. Most didn't have a choice and if they did they wouldn't have done it. Look at Saurfangs regrets when his talking to Gorrosh. That si like blaming the Undead for what they did while they were in the Lich Kings power.

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They've taken Azshara and have been using the resources and trees there, mainly to build a lot of warmachines. But They are more than fine without Ashenvale.

No they were not. When Thrall was still warchief his people were staving to death. Hell even half the city burned down.

[Tyrannica]

In terms of logic it makes literally 0 sense that the alliance would walk away from the horde's capital without a peace treaty and terms of agreement, and if you think otherwise you're mental.

Much like Germany had terms pushed on it after the World Wars even though many of their people were innocent.

Very true. But, who thinks a mmo's strong point is story telling, anyways?

[Austilias]

That wasn't the "orcs" it was the legion controlled orcs. Most didn't have a choice and if they did they wouldn't have done it. Look at Saurfangs regrets when his talking to Gorrosh. That si like blaming the Undead for what they did while they were in the Lich Kings power.

And yet, now that the Undead are free of the Lich King's power, are they really any better? They continue to raise people from the dead; arguably the greatest crime in the Warcraft universe when it comes to the Light and Necromancy. They also unleash their blight upon the world with reckless abandon. These days they are little different from the Scourge, save for their loyalty to Sylvanas and their feigned loyalty to the Horde.

Similarly, the Orcs when they first invaded Azeroth were drunk on fel energy/magic and pillaged all that they could find, such as Stormwind, and slaughtering those who stood in their way. Not a great deal different to the present day; whether they're slaughtering in Ashenvale or otherwise. Medivh promised the Orcs all of Azeroth when they first invaded; they still seem to think this promise applies.

[Every Pwny]

That wasn't the "orcs" it was the legion controlled orcs. Most didn't have a choice and if they did they wouldn't have done it. Look at Saurfangs regrets when his talking to Gorrosh. That si like blaming the Undead for what they did while they were in the Lich Kings power.

Ashenvale was after they had already got over their addiction. The orcs under Gromm did make a conscious choice to drink the blood though, there is no one else to blame there.

No they were not. When Thrall was still warchief his people were staving to death. Hell even half the city burned down.

I said "are", after Garrosh they have already used tons of resources to build a lot of warmachines. They have taken so many resources from Azshara, heck they were so fine in fact they left wood in Ashenvale to rot. They have no need of it anymore, Garrosh mainly wanted to see a world run by the orcs. They will have no need of the holdings he took after this.

[Penguintamer]

No additional security for their people.
No peace treaty.
No lands returned.
No forces disbanded.

What exactly did the Alliance gain from this except the warm glow of knowing they made their mortal enemy stronger and more united than ever?

EJL

How is defeating Garrosh, who is harnessing the power of a goddamn OLD GOD, going to make the Horde stronger? If killing Garrosh and restoring things to normal is going to make the Horde stronger (by your logic), then the Alliance are stupid for defeating Garrosh in the first place.

Use your brain here. Garrosh's fanatical Orcs are all over Kalimdor in other zones. Once Garrosh is defeated then they'll most likely be withdrawn or killed anyway. Ashenvale's obviously going to be pulled out of once this is all over, what more do you want? Hell, half of your zones were lost to the Forsaken, and that's an entirely different story and they have nothing to do with Garrosh.

"Oh now that the Alliance and your Horde rebels have defeated your corrupt Warchief, now your Forsaken have to return our precious Hillsbrad Foothills!" That doesn't make sense.

[Frontenac]

I don't know why ANYONE would think that the Alliance won a WAR. The Alliance doesn't defeat the Horde in Orgrimmar; they defeat Garrosh and a bunch of fanatical Orcs. Orcs comprise only 1/7 of the races that make up the Horde, and not all Orcs were with Garrosh. The Alliance win a BATTLE against Garrrosh, while fighting ALONG-SIDE the REAL Horde.

To win a war with the Horde the Alliance would still have to defeat the vast majority of the Horde still remaining. Which would lead to much more death on both sides, and fighting for years. Varian didn't allow the Horde to pick a new Warchief; he had no choice. While the Alliance would have had an advantage with the Horde being leader-less, someone would have picked up the mantle quick enough, and the bloodshed would have continued...and for what? Most of the most recent reasons for increased fighting, and the "war" between Horde and Alliance is pretty much directly the result of decisions and actions taken by Garrosh; who is now dead (I think/hope he dies). If he hadn't been the Warchief; there would have been no war, period.

So, for Alliance player, enjoy your battle victory that was won in part through working with the real Horde. I'll remember your contributions fondly as I'm relieving myself in the woods of Ashenvale. FOR THE HORDE!

The Alliance wins a battle against the leader of the Horde in the Horde's capital. Much of the Horde's war machine is destroyed, they lack the ressources to rebuild and they are divided. Your "real" Horde is not half of what it was before the war, while the Alliance stands united behind the High King and is stronger than ever. He may not have been able to destroy the Horde, but he certainly had the power to impose certain things on the Horde. Like : "We helped you to get rid of Garrosh, but this help won't be given without a price, not after all the blood allied soldiers shed for YOUR sake. Your Horde is in disarray and headless, you lack ressources and you will need time to rebuild. As for me, all my allies are behind me, my armies are stronger than ever and I have all the ressources I need... and a mage that is holding a grudge, ready to fill the canyons of your city with water. So... We could still fight or we could have peace under certain conditions. First, you leave Ashenvale. We are ready to trade wood if you need, as long as you play nice. Second, etc..." Heck, Varian should have even done that before accepting to help Vol'jin!

[Drithien]

Being an Alliance fan, ever since WarCraft I, I am satisfied with what we will have earned after Siege of Orgrimmmar: the satisfaction of doing the right thing, and saving Azeroth from Garrosh and the Sha. I don't want, much less expect any rewards for that. On the contrary, I would consider rooting to expel from the Alliance anyone immature and pety enough to either want retribtuion against the Horde or demand some kind of material reward. The Alliance are better than that. So either keep up, or find another faction. Enough with the crybabies.

[jealouspirate]

Redoing old zones to reflect Alliance victories is too much of a hassle.

But redoing Dustwallow to make sure Theramore was blown up for all to see the Horde's victory was important.

[Austilias]

If killing Garrosh and restoring things to normal is going to make the Horde stronger (by your logic), then the Alliance are stupid for defeating Garrosh in the first place.

I'm sure that's exactly how they'll be portrayed; their pride and love of the moral highground getting in the way of common sense and pragmaticism concerning the Horde.

Ashenvale's obviously going to be pulled out of once this is all over, what more do you want?

Considering it was invaded under Thrall's rule, I highly doubt that's going to change.

Hell, half of your zones were lost to the Forsaken, and that's an entirely different story and they have nothing to do with Garrosh.

It's a story they should address. I don't think anyone who's unhappy with this SoO story arc that will leave the 'true Horde' as heroes, rather than the villains they gladly were under Garrosh for at least an expansion, are any happier about the fact that Sylvanas is essentially the Lich King 2.0 who can do whatever she likes because the Horde is either too dumb to notice, or willingly ignorant of it.

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Redoing old zones to reflect Alliance victories is too much of a hassle.

But redoing Dustwallow to make sure Theramore was blown up for all to see the Horde's victory was important.

It's totally not a double standard. Why, if you want the world to reflect Alliance victories then you're clearly against Blizzard putting time/effort into future content!

[Every Pwny]

It's totally not a double standard. Why, if you want the world to reflect Alliance victories then you're clearly against Blizzard putting time/effort into future content!

Very true.

[Aquamonkey]

That's my point. He was claiming Dalaran -wasn't- current content, while claiming Theramore -is-.

Redoing old zones to reflect Alliance victories is too much of a hassle.

But redoing Dustwallow to make sure Theramore was blown up for all to see the Horde's victory was important.

Theramore was current content. It got redone in Cata and was destroyed in Cata. You want them to redo the WotLK and Cata zones to reflect MoP outcomes.

[Sukhoi]

Theramore was current content. It got redone in Cata and was destroyed in Cata. You want them to redo the WotLK and Cata zones to reflect MoP outcomes.

Then i want horde to be attacked in dalaran lol