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  1. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    In Wrath both factions got lore development (if you hordes think you didn't: The rise of garrosh, the creation of the plague, etc etc)
    The rise of Garrosh? He stood around in Warsong Hold and later was the buffbot in ICC. That's it ingame. Outside of the game he had a short appearance in the Udluar Patch Video. I'd hardly call that a lore development.
    And you could argue that the plague thing was as important for the alliance players since they got to raid one of the hordes capitals.

  2. #1002
    If the purge of dalaran is the 1-up of Theramore, then the horde sneaking in to Dalaran and freeing Aethas Sunstrider, the asshole responsible for the theft of the divine bell (as well as theramore) is yet another 1-up for the horde.

    sigh... It's very frustrating when all of the horde fans pick out the crazy or weak arguments from irrational alliance fans and use that as justification as to why the alliance should get NOTHING. Several suggestions have been made that DON'T take back horde levelling zones. Not every alliance wants that. I would personally settle for a copy of Dalaran floating above Theramore crater. It doesn't even have to be a complete copy. close off several doors and the sewers if you have to. Just give alliance the one bad-ass thing they've gained out of this expac. And for you arguing that "it's not fair to have such a powerful alliance city so close to the horde capitol," how is it any differnent than the original Theramore? Not to mention, it makes sense lorewise that Jaina would want to keep a close eye on the horde now that she's finally grown some fangs. It's not like max level alliance are going to spend time there any more than they would the original Theramore.


    And finally, if you feel that even this is unreasonable, please tell me what you think the alliance should gain out of SoO.

  3. #1003
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Defengar View Post
    : /

    The city where Jaina's father died telling his daughter the orcs would become what they had been again, and would destroy the city. You could call Jaina's father racist all you want. But he was 100% correct.
    She attacked the Orcs, it's no wonder they destroyed her city. "Listen, my child, they are monsters. If you punch them in the face, they will fight back; they're savages!"

  4. #1004
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Vereesa was directly in charge of the Purge and she did it because of Theramore. She was still whining about it at the Isle of Thunder when Jaina decided to let the Blood Elves walk away.

    Also, Dalaran was far from neutral. They chose to stand against Garrosh.
    Vareesa had her reasons to be pissed, her HUSBAND died in theramore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by composemail View Post
    Damn straight. Theramore was the logistical keystone into aggressive alliance incursions into the Barrens and Durotar. The day Theramore helped Northwatch invade Durotar was the day it became 'fair game'. Garrosh staged a feint land attack on Theramore, and lo and behold the Kirin Tor comes rushing to it's defence. 'Neutral' my arse! Garrosh's raid on Theramore was a masterstroke- not only did it get the Kirin Tor to show their true colours, but it tricked them into doing so in a trap.

    Theramore was a legitimate aggressive target, bombing it was a defensive manoever, and Rhonin would never have died if he wasn't there illegitimately defending the warmongering Alliance city state.
    So ogrimmar is 'Fair game" becase it acts as logistical keystone in Horde incursions into Ashenvale and Darkshore. Duuuuh.
    We should bomb Orgrimmar with gnomish-made radiation bombs.

  5. #1005
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by seije View Post
    And finally, if you feel that even this is unreasonable, please tell me what you think the alliance should gain out of SoO.
    For me, the story shouldn't be bargaining against the status quo with what is 'reasonable' or acceptable to the players. Screw that, the Alliance should get what is plausible; they sent their soldier in to enforce a change of power un the Horde. It is implausible that they could take this opportunity to wipe out the Horde (it's vulnerable, but not helpless). But they sure could extract some concessions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    So ogrimmar is 'Fair game" becase it acts as logistical keystone in Horde incursions into Ashenvale and Darkshore. Duuuuh.
    We should bomb Orgrimmar with gnomish-made radiation bombs.
    No shit. /10 chars

  6. #1006
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    So ogrimmar is 'Fair game" becase it acts as logistical keystone in Horde incursions into Ashenvale and Darkshore. Duuuuh.
    We should bomb Orgrimmar with gnomish-made radiation bombs.
    Now you see why I view alliance as faction that will fail in the end? They dont go that far. Never. They always go for moral high ground. And one time, there will be war where moral high ground will be irelevant.

  7. #1007
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Now you see why I view alliance as faction that will fail in the end? They dont go that far. Never. They always go for moral high ground. And one time, there will be war where moral high ground will be irelevant.
    Yeah i hate how they portray the alliance as the goody two-shoes, allways, even if they get beaten they still are the goody-two-shoes.
    Maybe thats why now i have two horde characters. And guess what, I like it. Because the horde isnt forced to not do stuff.

  8. #1008
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Yeah i hate how they portray the alliance as the goody two-shoes, allways, even if they get beaten they still are the goody-two-shoes.
    Maybe thats why now i have two horde characters. And guess what, I like it. Because the horde isnt forced to not do stuff.
    It's silly, really, the Alliance back in WCII didn't pull any stops. You can be the shining paragon of goodness and still be merciless;; you just need to convince yourself what you're fighting is irredeemably evil and corrupt. Not that hard with the Horde.

    The Alliance needs to take a level in badass Knight Templar, and bring out some of those LN Titan genes.
    Last edited by mmoce9e90fb559; 2013-07-26 at 01:35 PM.

  9. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by composemail View Post
    It's silly, really, the Alliance back in WCII didn't pull any stops. You can be the shining paragon of goodness and still be merciless;; you just need to convince yourself what you're fighting is irredeemably evil and corrupt. Not that hard with the Horde.
    It's like the Crusaders in Jerusalem that commited a scary genocide of men, women and children just because they belived that God wanted that, those guys were just awful unbelivers and needed to be wiped out of existance (and they felt even more justified since the Pope granted them "free acess" to the heaven and eternal atone of any sign).

    The Alliance felt justified to act almost like that because sincerely belived that the orcs were horrible creatures of darkness. Now, only the most extremists of Alliance warmongers (and don't worry, there are warmongers in the Alliance) can try to act like that, but for the majority by now is unable to ignore the fact the things are changed by the times of WC2.

    If the whole of the Alliance would convince themselves, with all their efforts of self-delusion, to be the saints fighting the bad evil, they would be a bunch of moronic fanatics like the Scarlet Crusade. And I have to admit, as a Horde player I would absurdly enjoy to brutally and mercilessly butcher these kind of individuals. But the modern Alliance becoming something like that? Oh, hardly.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-07-26 at 12:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  10. #1010
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    It's like the Crusaders in Jerusalem that commited a scary genocide of men, women and children just because they belived that God wanted that, those guys were just awful unbelivers and needed to be wiped out of existance (and they felt even more justified since the Pope granted them "free acess" to the heaven and eternal atone of any sign)
    sacking a city after a siege was pretty much modus operandi regardless of religious believes or motivations

  11. #1011
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Now you see why I view alliance as faction that will fail in the end? They dont go that far. Never. They always go for moral high ground. And one time, there will be war where moral high ground will be irelevant.
    Says who? Nearly every war in Warcraft was won by the side with morals: War of the Ancients, Second War, Third War, ... Eventually having morals gives you something to fight for, which bonds together, which gives a lot more power.

  12. #1012
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    It's like the Crusaders in Jerusalem that commited a scary genocide of men, women and children just because they belived that God wanted that, those guys were just awful unbelivers and needed to be wiped out of existance (and they felt even more justified since the Pope granted them "free acess" to the heaven and eternal atone of any sign).

    The Alliance felt justified to act almost like that because sincerely belived that the orcs were horrible creatures of darkness. Now, only the most extremists of Alliance warmongers (and don't worry, there are warmongers in the Alliance) can try to act like that, but for the majority by now is unable to ignore the fact the things are changed by the times of WC2.

    If the whole of the Alliance would convince themselves, with all their efforts of self-delusion, to be the saints fighting the bad evil, they would be a bunch of moronic fanatics like the Scarlet Crusade. And I have to admit, as a Horde player I would absurdly enjoy to brutally and mercilessly butcher these kind of individuals. But the modern Alliance becoming something like that? Oh, hardly.
    So instead the Alliance are left to be reactive, suing for peace, throwing their hands in the air ineffectually when the Horde tramples them.

    I'm not saying the Alliance need become the Scarlet crusade. I'm saying it'd be good for them if hardliners like that had a voice. Jaina might yet take after her father, and I could see Moira becoming an iron-fisted, merciless 'terror of the Forsaken' Dowager Empress. Vareesa would probably roll with that crowd too; what with the Horde nuking her husband (who totally had it coming). Tyrande seems to have severely softened since WCIII, but the Nelves are historically ruthless. Varian (like many humans) is on the fence, gnomes and Draenei are the voices of reason.

  13. #1013
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    If the whole of the Alliance would convince themselves, with all their efforts of self-delusion, to be the saints fighting the bad evil, they would be a bunch of moronic fanatics like the Scarlet Crusade. And I have to admit, as a Horde player I would absurdly enjoy to brutally and mercilessly butcher these kind of individuals. But the modern Alliance becoming something like that? Oh, hardly.
    It is possible to have an in between from do-nothing Alliance to Scarlet zealotry that would be engaging and interesting.

    Essentially the Alliance is deposing Garrosh and nothing more. There are no demands of justice. I keep thinking about the scene in Return of the King:

    "We shall have peace. We shall have peace when you answer for the burning of the Westfold, and the children that lie dead there. When the lives of the soldiers, whose bodies were hewn even as they lay dead against the Gates of the Hornburg are avenged! When you hang from a gibbet, for the sport of your own crows, we shall have peace."

    We don't even get that attitude out of our leaders and I really don't feel like the Horde can lay the blame solely on Garrosh as easily as Rohan could lay it on Saruman.

  14. #1014
    Quote Originally Posted by Shengar View Post
    Says who? Nearly every war in Warcraft was won by the side with morals: War of the Ancients, Second War, Third War, ... Eventually having morals gives you something to fight for, which bonds together, which gives a lot more power.
    I blame Metzen and his retarded writing.

  15. #1015
    Quote Originally Posted by composemail View Post
    Tyrande seems to have severely softened since WCIII, but the Nelves are historically ruthless.
    The night elves should have been the Alliance equivalent to the Forsaken. The fringe group whose views of right/wrong actions are somewhat alien to the standard human views. They've been watered down to hippies way too much in WoW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    I blame Metzen and his retarded writing.
    Well, it would also not play out too well if you DIDN'T have them win.
    War of the Ancients, the immoral side wins = no more Azeroth.
    Second War, the Horde razes Azeroth = demons take Azeroth, no more Azeroth.
    Third War, the Scourge wins, demons take Azeroth, no more Azeroth.

  16. #1016
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    The night elves should have been the Alliance equivalent to the Forsaken. The fringe group whose views of right/wrong actions are somewhat alien to the standard human views. They've been watered down to hippies way too much in WoW.

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    Well, it would also not play out too well if you DIDN'T have them win.
    War of the Ancients, the immoral side wins = no more Azeroth.
    Second War, the Horde razes Azeroth = demons take Azeroth, no more Azeroth.
    Third War, the Scourge wins, demons take Azeroth, no more Azeroth.
    Azeroth has plot armor. Nerf azeroth!

  17. #1017
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by composemail View Post
    I'm not saying the Alliance need become the Scarlet crusade. I'm saying it'd be good for them if hardliners like that had a voice. Jaina might yet take after her father, and I could see Moira becoming an iron-fisted, merciless 'terror of the Forsaken' Dowager Empress. Vareesa would probably roll with that crowd too; what with the Horde nuking her husband (who totally had it coming). Tyrande seems to have severely softened since WCIII, but the Nelves are historically ruthless. Varian (like many humans) is on the fence, gnomes and Draenei are the voices of reason.
    "I'm not saying they need to become Nazi-like Fanatics, they just need to become Nazis!"

  18. #1018
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    The night elves should have been the Alliance equivalent to the Forsaken. The fringe group whose views of right/wrong actions are somewhat alien to the standard human views. They've been watered down to hippies way too much in WoW.
    Where do you get that from? It were the Night Elves who rebeled against Azshara, who banished the the Highbourne for their inability of abolishing use of magic and imprisoned Ilidan.
    If that isn't a sign of morals, then what is? And it has nothing to do with WoW.

  19. #1019
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Azeroth has plot armor. Nerf azeroth!
    Hehehehehehe

    If Blizzard wrote REAL stories, we wouldn't even HAVE Warcraft III. The whole thing is stupid.

    I do get what Verdugo is saying, though. Let's take WWII for example (because hey, doesn't everyone?). The US ended the war without question with the bombs dropped on Japan. Without question, that is a definite moral grey area. Those sort of actions simply aren't taken.

    The Alliance could benefit form taking the moral grey actions to achieve a greater good from time to time without going entirely into the ends justify any means like Garrosh did.

  20. #1020
    Deleted
    So tell me, what are the Allaicne whining about now? Considering any notions of "taking back land" from the Horde pretty much crushes the Game and Lore Equilibrium?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    I do get what Verdugo is saying, though. Let's take WWII for example (because hey, doesn't everyone?). The US ended the war without question with the bombs dropped on Japan. Without question, that is a definite moral grey area. Those sort of actions simply aren't taken.
    Ironic, considering the German Declaration o surrender happened before.

    I guess yanks need to make it sound like AMERICA did all the heavy lifting in WW2, when they fought against a smaller and less well equipped nation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Vareesa had her reasons to be pissed, her HUSBAND died in theramore.

    So ogrimmar is 'Fair game" becase it acts as logistical keystone in Horde incursions into Ashenvale and Darkshore. Duuuuh.
    We should bomb Orgrimmar with gnomish-made radiation bombs.

    It's seems you don't understand the concept of a FORTRESS and a CITY.

    As example Ogrimmar has a fucking Orphanage. Theramore had tanks parked everywhere.

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