[spoiler] Ghostcrawler confirms ridiculous Alliance outcome in 5.4

[Deleted]

Are you kidding? They are a race of megalomaniacal nature fascists. The preisthood is the government. They are responsible for bringing the burning legion to Azeroth in the first place, they are responsible for the Naga, they are responsible for Satyrs too. Their civilisation or immortal 'caretakers' have fucked up more than anyone else.

They have saved Azeroth also more than anyone else.

[Deleted]

They have saved Azeroth also more than anyone else.

Yes, the way they.... Summoned the Legion in the first place, then needed everyones help to stop it.

They attacked the Orcs and Alliance building up preparing for conflict.

Refused help against the Legion despite their military being crushed by then almost instantly until the only smart one wakes up.

[Deleted]

See, it's funny when you paint them like that, but in truth. They were a bunch of not so bright womenfolk lead by a stupid bitch Tyrande who saw herself as better than everyone, despite being a Military failure.

Aaaaand this is what i don't want. Basically Tirande IS in fact, stupid as hell, this is because her character was butchered like no other, then made to lick Varian's boots and then just left like that.

[Defengar]

AS I have said before. If the orcs (not neccisarrily the entire horde) continue to antagonize and pick at allaince holdings and forces then the Alliance needs to take a firm stance and end it.

This is the third time the alliance and the horde have warred. Know what happened the third time Rome and Carthage went to war? Rome finally had enough of Carthage's shit and stomped them into the fossil record. Every square inch of territory was seized, every every major noble family was disenfranchised, the capital was completely demolished, its entire population was either put to the sword or sold into slavery, and salt was sown into its ground so nothing would grow there for a hundred years.

That may seem very harsh, but you have to remember that was a very different time, and Carthage had made Rome bleed far more than they had during the first and second Punic war. At the battle of Cannae, Hannibal pulled off a brilliant strategic maneuver that completely encircled the roman army and the fight became a slaughter. At the end of the day over 50,000 roman soldiers lay dead. Its considered to possibly be the deadliest one day battle in human history. And during the first Punic war, when a roman navy rescued a large roman army from north Africa, a storm swept in and destroyed the entire fleet. 90,000 men went down with the ships.

Sometimes to make an enemy stay down you have to put them in the ground.

Now of course I don't see the Alliance ever fully going as far as the Romans did, or even really wanting to do that sort of damage. But I do think if the alliance ever won a definitive victory over the orcs, it would be in everyone's best interest to banish them back to Draenor and seal the dark portal behind them. Nagrand is still very habitable, and considering it was orcs who fucked up outlands in the first place, I think its fitting they be made to sleep in the bed they made for themselves.

[Deleted]

Yes, the way they.... Summoned the Legion in the first place, then needed everyones help to stop it.

They attacked the Orcs and Alliance building up preparing for conflict.

Refused help against the Legion despite their military being crushed by then almost instantly until the only smart one wakes up.

Well at least there were some Night Elves that saw what was going on, rebeled and tried to stop the Legion and didn't go on a genocidical rampage and then going to alien worlds killing everything that moves. Sadly, can't say the same about Orcs, right.
Or are we going to insist they were "mind-controlled" or something.

[Deleted]

Ah, a Failed Fallacy fallacy.

here is it so you can understand without being so pathetic at a discussion.

A) Stating someones argument is a fallacy doesn not mean you can brush it off, you need to prove why the fallacy makes their argument invalid, not purely by shouting it's a fallacy like a magic word.

Oh sorry, didn't realise it was a tricky one for you:

Me: The Alliance need more warhawks.
You: hurpderpnazis

Would've been necessary had you have managed to string together a coherent argument.

Ah, the Godwin fallacy, a Classic.

B) Secondly, Godwin's Law is not a fallacy in of itself..

Oh lordy, you're making my head spin!

There is no formal Godwin 'law' or 'fallacy'; some guy called Godwin mused how nazis always come up in online discussions- the interent collectively nodded and said 'IKR?'. I know this tricky, but a decent rule of thumb is that if it's not written in latin, it's not a formal fallacy of logic or argument. Still don't get it? Let me rephrase; 'Oh nazis again, creative!'.

C) you argument for the Horde to be a "Smaller, More radical and violent force" basically paints you off as some person who came into the game at Wrath of the Lich king level and forgot what the New Horde is about. It's a band of Brothers, a Warrior Kindred. But what Garrosh did has a heavy point, This Warrior Band ideaology kept the Orcs sat in stick huts doing nothing, they needed to modernize. Where Garrosh went wrong was he was too greedy, and forgot the spiritual side of the Horde itself. Seeing as you have a Blood Elf Avatar, I can assume you really can't grasp the Horde as a whole.

Your neckbearded devotion to Thralls idyllic and ultimately doomed dream of shamanic brotherhoow marks you as someone who came in at the WCIII stage and bought into that nonsense. The old horde never died, kid, and as long as it's made up of races struggling to redeem themselves against a past of corruption, it is bound to continue relapsing.

[Faroth]

So tell me, what are the Allaicne whining about now? Considering any notions of "taking back land" from the Horde pretty much crushes the Game and Lore Equilibrium?

The argument that the Alliance can't be shown any victory in game because it would imbalance the game and lore is completely ridiculous. We can wipe Alliance cities off the map, but we can't touch anything the Horde does because it would imbalance lore? Nonsense. And phasing makes it nonsense from a game perspective.

I don't want them to redesign entire zones, but some of the outposts in Ashenvale had Alliance controlled versions in game already. Why can't you phase an area post 90 back to show the Alliance reclamation of some territory?

Ironic, considering the German Declaration o surrender happened before.

I'm not going to argue opinions and details of history, that's derailing this thread, but isn't that kind of the point?
Some argue it was believed Japan wouldn't have quit based on Germany. They had their honor and pride and Germany wasn't the sole controller of them all. The bombs unquestionably ensured the fighting from anyone was going to end. Others would argue it was an unnecessary show of force. My friend's a history major and he's gone so far as to say it was also a show of strength warning Russia what the US was capable of. But it's still safe to say it definitely put a halt to things. Was it right or wrong? Definitely arguable, but we see nothing that's developed in that line for the Alliance.

They never do anything that's questionable for a perceived greater good.

So it'll remain a terrible Warhammer rip off that as becoming more and more stupid as time progressed?

"This is a site populated by militant [game] buffs: sad, pathetic little bastards living in their parents' basement downloading [datamined info] and what they think is inside information about [features] and [games] they claim to despise yet can't stop discussing."

If you hate WoW, stop talking about WoW?

[Wildberry]

Aaaaand this is what i don't want. Basically Tirande IS in fact, stupid as hell, this is because her character was butchered like no other, then made to lick Varian's boots and then just left like that.

Tyrande was a fucking moron back in WCIII

Orcs are chopping our lumber? Attack them
Orcs are defending themselves? Bring in Cenarius
Cenarius is dead and there's Humans and Orcs attacking the Undead that are our enemy? They're all savages, an alliance with them would be stupid. ATTACK!
Burning Legion is invading? Better free my crazy brother-in-law so he can absorb a demonic artifact, do a bit of good and proceed to attempt to rip apart Northrend with another Demonic Artifact

Face it, Tyrande has always been an idiot. The only difference is that she would argue her dumb logic against Malfurion's points, and somehow sees wisdom in what Varian says. If they wanted to stay true to WCIII Tyrande they would have her suggest "Dumb Idea #5,739" have it get shot down by Varian, and then have her do it anyway. Her being dumb wasn't because they butchered her character, the only thing they butchered was her voice, Tyrande was just born dumb.

[Deleted]

Your neckbearded devotion to Thralls idyllic and ultimately doomed dream of shamanic brotherhoow marks you as someone who came in at the WCIII stage and bought into that nonsense. The old horde never died, kid, and as long as it's made up of races struggling to redeem themselves against a past of corruption, it is bound to continue relapsing.

You mean I am a neckbeard because I enjoy thr fact that the world is not Black and white, and that the Horde has it's own Noble image and is not just a bunch of bad guys for the alliance to shit on?

That I enjoyed a faction composed not of Warlords or Warmasters but of a Banded group of outcasts joined together for survival and eventual union? Please, spare me your stupid notions of "The Old Horde". Thats what they are, the OLD Horde, one that Doomhammer tried to change, but failed. And Thrall succeeded in throwing off the chains of Demons and warlock hidden castes.

- - - Updated - - -

"This is a site populated by militant [game] buffs: sad, pathetic little bastards living in their parents' basement downloading [datamined info] and what they think is inside information about [features] and [games] they claim to despise yet can't stop discussing."

If you hate WoW, stop talking about WoW?

Translation: My Opinion has been proven to be stupid, therefore I will cite that anyone disliking current WoW to be a Hater.

[Deleted]

They have saved Azeroth also more than anyone else.

I know! They're like Azeroth's hot and cold abusive spouse.

AS I have said before. If the orcs (not neccisarrily the entire horde) continue to antagonize and pick at allaince holdings and forces then the Alliance needs to take a firm stance and end it.

They need to, but they're not.

This is the third time the alliance and the horde have warred. Know what happened the third time Rome and Carthage went to war? Rome finally had enough of Carthage's shit and stomped them into the fossil record. Every square inch of territory was seized, every every major noble family was disenfranchised, the capital was completely demolished, its entire population was either put to the sword or sold into slavery, and salt was sown into its ground so nothing would grow there for a hundred years.

That may seem very harsh, but you have to remember that was a very different time, and Carthage had made Rome bleed far more than they had during the first and second Punic war. At the battle of Cannae, Hannibal pulled off a brilliant strategic maneuver that completely encircled the roman army and the fight became a slaughter. At the end of the day over 50,000 roman soldiers lay dead. Its considered to possibly be the deadliest one day battle in human history. And during the first Punic war, when a roman navy rescued a large roman army from north Africa, a storm swept in and destroyed the entire fleet. 90,000 men went down with the ships.

Do you know what happened the third time England and France went to war? Me neither; luckily, it's utterly irrelevant.

Sometimes to make an enemy stay down you have to put them in the ground.

Now of course I don't see the Alliance ever fully going as far as the Romans did, or even really wanting to do that sort of damage. But I do think if the alliance ever won a definitive victory over the orcs, it would be in everyone's best interest to banish them back to Draenor and seal the dark portal behind them. Nagrand is still very habitable, and considering it was orcs who fucked up outlands in the first place, I think its fitting they be made to sleep in the bed they made for themselves.

First of all, the Horde consists of more than Orcs; as many Azerothian natives welcome the Orcs as do those who reject them. Funnily enough it's mainly those that the Alliance has trampled, neglected, and wronged. Seems like not everyone on Azeroth likes the way the Alliance does business.

Second of all, though it might have been the Orcs who despoiled Draenor after being corrupted by the burning legion (like many other races before them); let's not forget who turned the Legion's attention to Draenor by hiding there. That's like crashing at a friends house and neglecting to mention the Mafia has a hit out on you. Dick move, Velen, dick move.

[Deleted]

AS I have said before. If the orcs (not neccisarrily the entire horde) continue to antagonize and pick at allaince holdings and forces then the Alliance needs to take a firm stance and end it.

This is the third time the alliance and the horde have warred. Know what happened the third time Rome and Carthage went to war? Rome finally had enough of Carthage's shit and stomped them into the fossil record. Every square inch of territory was seized, every every major noble family was disenfranchised, the capital was completely demolished, its entire population was either put to the sword or sold into slavery, and salt was sown into its ground so nothing would grow there for a hundred years.

That may seem very harsh, but you have to remember that was a very different time, and Carthage had made Rome bleed far more than they had during the first and second Punic war. At the battle of Cannae, Hannibal pulled off a brilliant strategic maneuver that completely encircled the roman army and the fight became a slaughter. At the end of the day over 50,000 roman soldiers lay dead. Its considered to possibly be the deadliest one day battle in human history. And during the first Punic war, when a roman navy rescued a large roman army from north Africa, a storm swept in and destroyed the entire fleet. 90,000 men went down with the ships.

Sometimes to make an enemy stay down you have to put them in the ground.

Now of course I don't see the Alliance ever fully going as far as the Romans did, or even really wanting to do that sort of damage. But I do think if the alliance ever won a definitive victory over the orcs, it would be in everyone's best interest to banish them back to Draenor and seal the dark portal behind them. Nagrand is still very habitable, and considering it was orcs who fucked up outlands in the first place, I think its fitting they be made to sleep in the bed they made for themselves.

And I'll just say this to counter you're entire fucking point.


How the hell are you going to force the Horde to dismantle itself? No matter how much of a "Victory" it is with garrosh, what stops the Horde from simply going "No" And caused untold masses of bloodshed as the alliance tries to put down a horde now United in the hatred of the Alliance more than ever and falling even deeper into a pit of "maybe Garrosh was right to want to totally take over everything"

So now you have not only the Orcs, but the Trolls and tauren who you have royally pissed off, for no reason, just because the Alliance wants to remove the Orcs, All Orcs.

[Faroth]

Translation: My Opinion has been proven to be stupid, therefore I will cite that anyone disliking current WoW to be a Hater.

My opinion was PROVEN to be stupid? Which opinion? When did this happen?

And I've seen nothing BUT negativity about every aspect of WoW from you here. So yeah, if you hate WoW, why are you still following it only to talk about how much you hate it?

[Deleted]

My opinion was PROVEN to be stupid? How highly you think of it.

And I've seen nothing BUT negativity about every aspect of WoW from you here. So yeah, if you hate WoW, why are you still following it only to talk about how much you hate it?

Maybe you should try not having such negative opinions, WoW has done tons of things great and good, and I could easily list it off as my 5th favorite fantasy setting. But this is not a Thread for Positive things is it?

[Faroth]

Maybe you should try not having such negative opinions, WoW has done tons of things great and good, and I could easily list it off as my 5th favorite fantasy setting. But this is not a Thread for Positive things is it?

Well.......now I'm curious what your other top 5 favorite fantasy settings are.

[Jediguy]

So that's fucking it.

Our "great fist pump" moment we were promised is walking out of the city with no terms of peace agreed and no lands returned.

As usual the alliance were just along for the ride and gained absolutely nothing from it.

Who cares about Ashenvale getting burnt down? Gilneas ravaged? Our men turned by Valkyr into Forsaken? Our Prince having his body crushed?

After stepping foot into our capitol, be thankful we let you walk away. Whine some more and we'll just have to conquer more of your cities. The beatings will continue until morale improves!

[Deleted]

You mean I am a neckbeard because I enjoy thr fact that the world is not Black and white, and that the Horde has it's own Noble image and is not just a bunch of bad guys for the alliance to shit on?

No, I think you're a neckbeard because of those little tufty patches of hair on your neck.

The Horde not being black and white also means it's not white. It is, in part, the ideal of shamic brotherhood and renewal. It is also undeniably the repeated failure to live up to that. It's the uniting cause of the diverse and discarded peoples of Azeroth to fught side by side for a place in a world that doesn't want them. It is their tendency toward monstrosity when doing so.

The horde is all about high hopes and grand disappointments; it is a tragic faction.

That I enjoyed a faction composed not of Warlords or Warmasters but of a Banded group of outcasts joined together for survival and eventual union? Please, spare me your stupid notions of "The Old Horde". Thats what they are, the OLD Horde, one that Doomhammer tried to change, but failed. And Thrall succeeded in throwing off the chains of Demons and warlock hidden castes.

There are some chaps in the Cleft of shadow who'd like to have a word, but first let us welcome the Blackrock clan back into the Horde! Perhaps we can get the folks from Undercity, Silvermoon, and the Echo isles to put on a fel-shadow-unholy performance on for them?

This internal contradiction is sorely lacking in the Alliance, and has a detrimental impact on the portrayal thereof. Lazy writing pegs them as the rational, moral, 'straight man' counterpoint to the Horde's histrionic melodrama. Just as the Horde is a faction of Monsters aspiring towards nobility- the Alliance should be a faction of noble races, struggling with an inner monstrosity. For all their shining light, civilised sensibilities, and moral superiority- they are at their essence the encfranchised elite; the winners of history who inhabit peace and prosperity very much at the expense of others, and who have little sympathy or charity for the unfortunate many beyond reaches of the system they sit proudly atop.

But we couldn't possibly have nuanced story telling; it is after all just a game.ds house and neglecting to mention the Mafia has a hit out on you. Dick move, Velen, dick move.[/QUOTE]

[Deleted]

Well.......now I'm curious what your other top 5 favorite fantasy settings are.

Quite Standard things really.

1. Is Warhammer Fantasy due to the outstanding WHFRPG and it's ability really make a gritty and grim fantasy where your character can get mauled and mangled.
2. Is Eberron, Everybody loves Eberron.
3. Is Lord of the Rings, such a rich setting with great amounts of detail.
4. Is Spelljammer, because Space ships powered by magic with DnD races is hilarious fun, but sadly rarely played.

All offer different things, while also being able to be used widely in PnP RPGS, Books, Video games and so forth. Warcraft fits among them too. At best I could call it since Warcraft 3 a more lighthearted Eberron.

[Trassk]

Well.......now I'm curious what your other top 5 favorite fantasy settings are.

- Middle earth
- Spira
- Hyboria
- Toon town
- Oz

[Buu]

Did you honestly expect them to revamp old zones AGAIN?

It was very clear from the beginning that we just eliminate the Kor'kron threat and after that it'll be business as usual.



We did gain something. We exchanged a "raawr human smash!" Gladiator with a proper King worth respecting... and gained a "whackjob soon to be raidboss" Archmage on the side.

Sadly, mostly alliance players like "human smash" and played through MoP without stopping to even notice that Anduin is receiving the same treatment as Thrall had in Cataclysm. With the exception that Alliance hated Thrall, even if he did all for the greater good, while Horde is loving the way Anduin is going.

[Deleted]

Spelljammer, because Space ships powered by magic with DnD races is hilarious fun, but sadly rarely played.

/me reveals his own neckbeard, and stokes it whilst nodding in sagely agreement.