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  1. #241
    Immortal SL1200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    In what way? This is the first expansion to have all it's raid content available in LFR. Your opinion of the expansion is the opposite of what I've experienced and I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that you did.

    Edit: After reading your later posts, is it that you found 10 man Normal to be too difficult? I'd love to hear what went wrong.
    Lfr was a good idea that's been poorly executed. It doesn't feel like raiding to most people.

  2. #242
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    While the feedback given out was certainly concentrated it was apparently not universal. The system in 4.3 was far better even if meant you (and by you I mean the guy who plays 15+ hours) had 4 or 5 alts to keep occupied. While YOU (again that same group) may be glad they didn't it go back to that old system it came at the cost of lots of players who walked away from the game when it stopped rewarding them and when their 2-3 hours a week wasn't rewarding them as much as it was before.
    Always easy to talk about players who walked away, not thinking about what'd happen if Mists continued this atrocious idea that you should be able to cap a characters progression for a week in 1-2 hours of doing 5man content and a LFR run. Mists still award those people, but no. Not to the same extent as 4.3 did.

    Tabards were a good thing. Instant catch-up and new dungeons was a good thing. In fact virtually all of the casual friendly systems in cataclysm were a GOOD THING except for a small but apparently vocal minority of players who play one guy and want to spend like 20-30 hours a week on that one guy. If that means that guy is put out well to bad. It's a far better business decision and IMHO a far better game design decision to put that guy out and offer the variety that comes with playing lots of alts.
    You should really look up some 4.3 threads, because this is just disconnected from reality. Tabards made dungeons too rewarding. Dungeons added over time made you have less variance. Instant catch up made people bored out of their minds. But hey, I'm still seeing plenty of catch up mechanics in Mists. They're just not instant. And again, the backlash of 4.3 was so great that they did such a big change in Mists. Nope, it's not working for everyone, but damn if there's anything I can say with absolute certainty, it's that if Mists continued like 4.3, the exodus of players would be tremendous.

    Mists is a colossal failure and it was all centered around giving YOU (once again that same group) something to do when for the most part it wasn't necessary. Most of those players who play more than 20-30 hours are so hopelessly addicted they'd just do the content on alts and be satisfied with it.
    I have never understood how an expansion that keeps people busy, instead of making them cap a character in an hour, can be regarded as a colossal failure. Then again, what patch or expansion hasn't been called a colossal failure in some regard. Yup, that includes BC.
    MoP has its issues. 4.3 was a clusterfuck.
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  3. #243
    PvP.

    First unbalanced in such extremes that even i was surprised as a playing this game since TBC came out.

    Secondly, its farming attidude and there is somehow absolutely nothing to do except farming conquest points and you even get elite gear by that lame way.

    Third, RBGs are still not fun to play.

    Forth, they failed BIG time in bringing back open pvp as they promised for MOP.

    Feels like Blizzard developers turned into lying politicans.

    oh yeah alt friendlyness was lacking, too.

    Hm the story did not work for me. i expected a big clash of Horde vs Alliance i got betrayed with a stupid civil war. Can't Garrosh not just get an accident or assassinated and we move on?

  4. #244
    Dailies and CRZ. Ok, CRZ was not that bad idea, but brought so many lvl 90 noobs (both Horde and Alliance) to low level zones which made leveling alts painful. There were some were some good fights in Outland against same or +/-3 level, but in 90% lvl 90 appears and 1 shot you.

  5. #245
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    Still not fond of the dailies systems, but the biggest annoyance to me was how they gated it at the start. Blech.
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  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Calaba View Post
    Ok, let's be clear about this - LFR IS NOT FOR CASUAL GUILDS. If anything it's done more to kill casual guilds than anything else in WoW ever. LFR is STRICTLY solo content. Like doing dailies, or farming mats. No guild required!
    Sorry I misread what you said. Thought you said "what about casuals".

    But I don't think guilds are what make or break subs or the community because WotLK had an insane amount of community involvement despite not promoting guilds all that much. But I guess it could be argued that's where and WHY the decline began.
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  7. #247
    The Lightbringer serenka's Avatar
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    also pvp, this is perhaps been the worst expansion for pvp balance.
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  8. #248
    Everything was perfect until 5.3. It has got to be the worst patch ever with it's boring Barrens "event" and it's terrible weekly quest being all there is after finishing the 3 or 4 lead ups. Even the rewards are boring. They would have been much better off with a series of dailies like the previous patches. At least then , you'd have a reason to log in every day.

    The only other bad thing was that legendary quest requiring 6000 valor to finish. It should have been no more than 3000 from the beginning . It put me and others way behind in the legendary line. Now I'm working on the Secrets of the Empire drops and they need to drop more often. One every LFR is not enough.

    Other than those two things, MoP has been great and I don't get why people have left. There will be an upsurge in subs when 5.4 goes live but how long it lasts is anyone's guess.
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  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The important distinction is that an individual who is playing "solo" can stop and restart his subscription with no repercussions to the social connections that would otherwise be enabling him to play end game content. Given the lower cost of stopping, is it any wonder more people do so?
    Oh, I agree completely! This is why I love Flex raiding. It brings all of the social aspects of raiding back, where LFR had taken them away. I'm curious, though. Did you find 10 man Normal to be too challenging to "get together with people week after week, building social capital"? I don't feel that this is exclusive to Heroic raiding.
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  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    No they didn't. They did the exact opposite of addressing it in MoP. They made it worse, MUCH worse. Scenarios replacing longer heroics isn't going to keep people playing. LFR over pugged raids isn't going to keep people playing. Absolutely terrible loot systems in BOTH scenarios and LFR hasn't kept players playing. There's more "casual-friendly" end game content than ever before. The problem is most casuals didn't even want the game to be "casual-friendly". Most were happy working their way up to where the so called hardcores were over a much longer period of time. But now that the casual folks can see most of what the hardcore players are seeing, getting loot that looks and behaves just like it they really don't care for progressing.
    This is most likely true. People assume that all casuals want to hop in and do a raid and collect some loot with minimal effort. BLizz gave that. Didn't work. That's because those types of players are vastly overexaggerated. I'm a casual player. And I have absolutely no problem with not being able to do something. I will never kill H Lei Shen. And that's totally fine by me. There are plenty of people like me. People assume Casual="I have to be able to always kill something and get loot for a minimal amount of time/effort". And that's false. There are people that play only to raid. They have good progress, but when raiding is done, they are logged off. Those people aren't hardcore to me. And the person who never raids or pvp's that plays 24/7 but likes to call themself a casual, doesn't fit either.


    Where the game went wrong was when it got greedy. People like to throw out "Rese tintered derpslasses" when talking about vanilla and BC, but then WoW was a game of exploration and PLAYER CREATED CONTENT. The player created content is long gone. But in the days of Tarren Mill/Southshore, kiting bosses to SW or Org, taking over a city for a day, those kinds of things are what made the game really cool. But since everything is about convenience now, you don't need to get a group of people together except for making an ICC25 transmog run. Other than that, you sit in SW or Org and wait for your Q. And a big part of the game dying is the dying of the mmo part of the rpg. In classic it mattered shit if you raided. Getting to max level was the end game. You thought you were hot shit if you were at 50. And that was fine. Because there was alot to do.

    But now, because Blizz dug this hole of convenience, it's time for them to lie in it. Because for as nice as it is to hit a button and join other players in a dungeon or a raid, it destroys the community aspect of the game. That is why Swtor fought so hard to leave LFD out of the game. They eventually put it in in a desperate attempt to get people to play, but the game still died. But even they knew that was bad for the game.

    I'm not saying some convenience isn't healthy. But too much is deadly. And today you don't even have to talk to another person in game if you don't want to. And that shouldn't be what an mmo is about. WoW had a really, really, really good run. But it's coming to an end. And nothing they do will stop that.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Okay why was you having 9 alts ridiculous? Like it gets thrown around that it's a bad thing but I can't for the life of me figure out why. If you have 9 alts and you play for 15-20+ then the guy who plays for 2-3 hours a week is just getting by on his one toon and is far more satisfied than now where he's getting nowhere on that one toon because you having 9 alts is apparently ridiculous??

    It get's thrown around alot but nobody has ever put up a good argument. I think it's one of those things that's just assumed is bad but nobody ever looked into it having upsides as well. Even the devs say cataclysm was far to alt friendly but well how is that possible? Like how is that a bad thing? So what you have 9 alts. I don't see the downside... I would submit that even if it is a disease (and I don't buy that it is) mists as a cure is far worse.
    for me at least I didn't have 9 fully geared alts because I wanted them...I was so god damn bored I either do that or quit the game. Cata near the end there was the time I could have walked away from the game and never come back. buuuuuut with MoP and the annual pass I had to have some reason to keep playing, my guild nuked DS so most either had numerous alt runs or just quit tell MoP, Alts were the one thing that at the least killed time for me. thats all it did, fill up time until the next Expac. THERE, an argument. it's not a criticism of having alts it's a criticism of the lack of end game that was in Cata.
    Last edited by Sky High; 2013-07-27 at 10:30 PM.

  12. #252
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    Its not alt friendly, you dont have any good catchup mechanism like in tbc, wrath, cata and the biggest problem of faildaria is the amounts of bugs reached a new high ...

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    - The replay value of wow just doesn't have that replay value it once did. It seems strange saying this now since it would have applied to cata too, but given how its been over three years since cata, and the massive changes they made to vanilla wow, one of the biggest complaints about cata was how lineal the game had become. I honestly have no motivation to level alts anymore because of how boring it is, which ironically fits into what I just said about the daily grind.
    Interestingly, both wotlk and cata had 2 different starting zones to level for alts. And people can critize cata all they want, but the level expierence was by far the best out of all expansions. There was so much diversity there. The sad thing is however, this game is totally endgame focused, so these beautiful zones and quests in cata are trivial in the big picture. Blizz failed right here.

    Rare mobs and treasure hunts led max lvl players back to old zones in mists, but those zones are hardly as spectacular as the cata zones, i like a continent and diverse zones, so in that regard outland was the best idea they ever had so far.

    Another outland host of zones with ideas of cata backed in, and more endgame content in those zones will make the game world quite better, oh, and 2 different starting zones, would be nice.

  14. #254
    The idea that everyone has to do everything really made everything feel...not special. I wasn't that particularly hardcore in vanilla, but the fact that the world had all these parts that you wouldn't see immediately but instead would see EVENTUALLY in your journey was really awesome. It really added a sense of adventure.

    In MoP, everyone does everything as soon as it comes out. There are no alternate routes, no deviation, no divergance, no doing things in whatever order you happen to do them, just the same linear path for everyone for everything.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    Oh, I agree completely! This is why I love Flex raiding. It brings all of the social aspects of raiding back, where LFR had taken them away. I'm curious, though. Did you find 10 man Normal to be too challenging to "get together with people week after week, building social capital"? I don't feel that this is exclusive to Heroic raiding.
    Yes, normal mode raiding was too difficult for the great majority of players. That's why I characterized this expansion as "hardcore or solo".
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  16. #256
    You gear up then if you want to be competitive in PVE you need to do the legendary line.

    Any person worth his weight with a meta will blow away (spell dps wise) anyone without it.

    Even with the nerfs I'm on the meta part of the quest for my ALT. I have 4 out of 20 of the Secrets in one week. I GOT LUCKY. A buddy in my guild working his alt got 1, the guaranteed one off of Lei Shen. 4 a week will still take me FIVE WEEKS to complete it ON MY ALT.

    Cata was friendly because you ran LFR, got the gear. Ran Normals, got the gear. IF you kept going you went into Heroics and got the gear then you were good to go.

    Now the legendary if almost required if you or your alts want to be taken seriously and honestly if you don't feel the same way then you don't need to be responding to this thread and go back and run LFR to your little hearts content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Whatever problems Shadow priests have, have nothing to do with Mobility. And Shadow seriously shouldn't see any sort of buff before Disc is nerfed into the ground. Because right now any sort of buff that could in any way trickle into disc, would turn the damn thing into the incarnation of Jesus Christ the Avenger, as the definition of demigod would be insufficient.

  17. #257
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fummockelchen View Post
    Its not alt friendly, you dont have any good catchup mechanism like in tbc, wrath, cata and the biggest problem of faildaria is the amounts of bugs reached a new high ...
    I think blizzards claim that there catch up mechanism is that of scenarios - dungeons then LFR.
    This just strikes me as sloppy, really sloppy, given how previous expansions had some kind of catch up mechanism with new dungeons.

    and considering kosak himself said he wished there were more dungeons, including that of recent content, proves how much of a mistake it was.

    Its such a simply but very effective concept. Dungeons give items you need to gear up, add a couple of new dungeons in for catch up, and thats all, its worked perfectly fine last three expacks.

    Also, am I the only one who thinks scenarios should be once only features we don't have to grind, but in beating them we can choose a reward for an upgrade instead of a random box drop, and keep them as 1 man only.
    #boycottchina

  18. #258
    To me, it is the pathetic attempts to steal our time. Every basic action, which in no way defines any gameplay, steals a portion of time for the reason of plain stealing a portion of time. Double gating rewards. Ten minutes spend for flying to raid summoning stone. Ten minutes spend for flying to item vendor. Horrible idiotic currency caps.
    I do realise that Blizz wants to conquer time-paying asian market, but for me this kind of forced wasting my time is annoying beyond limits.
    Also, I think they are making (and still continue to make it) a huge mistake when they start breaking community into smaller groups. Instead of giving a content for 5 people, they are focusing on content for three/one. Instead of making an Ulduar-style one raid difficulty with hard modes actively enabled by players themselves, they make four copies of the same instance. While it is comforting for lots of people to have their own little niche, dividing a community is never a good thing.
    And I should mention the story being just bad in general. What even worse, with every patch it becomes more and more illogical and childish.
    Well, let's hope it is not too late for Blizz to start making things right

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Yes, normal mode raiding was too difficult for the great majority of players. That's why I characterized this expansion as "hardcore or solo".
    Interesting. Hopefully Flex helps that situation out if for no reason other than as a stepping stone.

    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    To me, it is the pathetic attempts to steal our time. Every basic action, which in no way defines any gameplay, steals a portion of time for the reason of plain stealing a portion of time.
    Convenience does not make a game fun. Convenience leads to boredom. Aside from that fact, it's also worth pointing out that in some ways, MoP has been the most convenient expansion to date. Just yesterday I hit 90 on an alt and finished Lei Shen in LFR. That's convenient. I didn't even do one 5-man. The only inconvenient thing about MoP so far is that Have Group, Will Travel is no longer in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Also, am I the only one who thinks scenarios should be once only features we don't have to grind, but in beating them we can choose a reward for an upgrade instead of a random box drop, and keep them as 1 man only.
    This would be an especially good idea when also applied to leveling. Leveling scenarios, in my opinion, are a great missed opportunity by Blizzard. Quests get stale, dungeons are finite, etc. There is a huge untapped resource of scenarios, especially the ones that can't be done in Heroic, like Greenstone Village.
    Last edited by Frogged; 2013-07-27 at 10:40 PM.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post

    I think, what blizzard seems to not understand, is how one of the biggest contributing factors of keeping players hooked on there game, is the reply value, as it is with any game. Alts are the reply value for wow, because once you've done something on your main you can't replay it. So, in what they've done with cata, and with mists, people simply don't want to play on other characters. They don't have anything to work towards on them because achievements are now account wide, so.. there i literally nothing to do outside of your main. and once you've done it on that, most would probably agree they'd sooner do the new content, not bother with alts, cancel sub until the next content patch, and then repeat.

    Anyway, thats my two cent. Unless blizzard finds a way of giving replay value to there gamers and give them reason to play other characters, to have a goal to work towards on them.. this is how it will be.
    Ever played a fallout rpg? That i call true replayability. you can start over again and again and it only gets more interesting and enjoyable.

    Lucklily Wasteland2 is coming out this autumn made by the original fallout1+2 designers. I got tired from wow, lore goes in a wrong direction, the mmo is limited to explain a story you really need to read the novels, and the game got really boring technically speaking. Reply value is small, as i consider mmos now only a more complex browser game, that is mainly about farming and doing the same things on a daily or weekly basis. And this with multiple alts gets very exhausting and in the end it wasn't fun either.

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