[spoiler] Ghostcrawler confirms ridiculous Alliance outcome in 5.4

[Aquamonkey]

The quote "Will the Alliance be content with overthrowing a despot, or will they crush the Horde at one of the most vulnerable points in its history?" is why the term "crush" has started to be used. Your right it might be hyperbole, but it still seems to agree with the information we've been given about the relative sterngth and power of the factions after SoO.

Maybe crush their spirit.

EDIT: That isn't Wrathion talking. That's from the patch description page.

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Really? Seems to me Wrathion wanted the Alliance to win outright.
So that all of Azeroth would be united under one banner, one faction.

Yes, he wants the war to end and everyone to be united. That doesn't mean he wants the losing side to be completely destroyed. He doesn't actually care who does it. He was betting on Garrosh until he turned the Horde against himself.

[Glorious Leader]

Honestly the best part about being a horde isn't the badass races or the cool abilities or even the characters and lore itself. It's having an opponent with such a massive inferiority complex that no matter what happens horde is always bigger. That's right guys. It is bigger.

[Dreknar20]

Yes, he wants the war to end and everyone to be united. That doesn't mean he wants the losing side to be completely destroyed. He doesn't actually care who does it. He was betting on Garrosh until he turned the Horde against himself.

His actions/talking says otherwise

5.1 had him having us going out wrecking the other faction to prove to him our respective faction deserved to win the war.
And he is pissed that Varian let the Horde be rather than destroying them
He wanted Azeroth to be united under the banners of the Alliance, not still have 2 seperate, rivial factions

[Eazy]

Really? Seems to me Wrathion wanted the Alliance to win outright.
So that all of Azeroth would be united under one banner, one faction.

From Wrathion quotes we can clearly see that he wanted Varian Wrynn to lead whole Azeroth under one Banner... Alliance banner.

Yes, he wants the war to end and everyone to be united. That doesn't mean he wants the losing side to be completely destroyed. He doesn't actually care who does it. He was betting on Garrosh until he turned the Horde against himself.

Source, please.

[Dreknar20]

which immediately put a time-stamp on all of their work.

which leveling zones dont have that problem?

[Aquamonkey]

What will likely happen is another united front against the Legion with some inter-faction squabbles. It's kind of like the whole protect-the-dark-portal-opening thing. The conflict between orcs and humans made them strong enough to face the Legion at Hyjal. Whereas without the orcs, the humans would have decimated each other in their fight for dominance. Having the Horde and Alliance go at each other without full conquest-mode makes both sides stronger (arms race). With one side completely dominating, they end up being weaker because of the high cost to both sides.

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Source, please.

"What? Yes, I was backing the Alliance. I thought Hellscream's victory was assured before he turned half of his Horde against him. So I changed my allegiance. Oh, don't act so surprised. I'm a Black Dragon, my loyalties are my own."

[Eazy]

"What? Yes, I was backing the Alliance. I thought Hellscream's victory was assured before he turned half of his Horde against him. So I changed my allegiance. Oh, don't act so surprised. I'm a Black Dragon, my loyalties are my own."

Thank you, completely forgot about this.

But if Garrosh "won" wouldn't he wipe Alliance?

[Aquamonkey]

His actions/talking says otherwise

5.1 had him having us going out wrecking the other faction to prove to him our respective faction deserved to win the war.
And he is pissed that Varian let the Horde be rather than destroying them
He wanted Azeroth to be united under the banners of the Alliance, not still have 2 seperate, rivial factions

Wrathion was pissed that Varian let them have another warchief instead of subjugating them into the Alliance. He didn't care which side emerged dominant.

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Thank you, completely forgot about this.

But if Garrosh "won" wouldn't he wipe Alliance?

Not if they submitted to his rule. Garrosh's whole reason for wanting to conquer the Alliance was to ensure the dominance of his people so they weren't living in squalor while the Alliance hoarded all the natural resources. Garrosh doesn't target civilians (as confirmed by Kosak), so he's not seeking to wipe them off the face of the planet.

[Dreknar20]

(Not saying it makes a lot of sense, but that's the canonical reason).

why does that not make sense?
wITHOUT Orcs to fight humans will just fight each other

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Wrathion was pissed that Varian let them have another warchief instead of subjugating them into the Alliance. He didn't care which side emerged dominant.

Which is what I was getting at.
Wrathion didnt want peace between the 2 factions. He wanted one sole victor to remain on Azeroth, so then there would only be 1 faction.

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But if Garrosh "won" wouldn't he wipe Alliance?

Probably force the Night Elves out of Kalimdor, either by death or exodous.
And stomp on the rest of the Alliance good enough to ensure they would never be a major threat

[Aquamonkey]

why does that not make sense?
wITHOUT Orcs to fight humans will just fight each other

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Which is what I was getting at.
Wrathion didnt want peace between the 2 factions. He wanted one sole victor to remain on Azeroth, so then there would only be 1 faction.

Yes, that's what Wrathion wants. It's what Wrathion thinks would be best. But that doesn't mean it is what would actually be best. The whole CoT thing shows that the combined combat power of Azeroth is stronger because of the Horde/Alliance conflict remaining close to a stalemate.

Also, we're obviously still going to defeat the Legion despite being split into separate factions because plot and gameplay. So Wrathion is wrong in his opinion on this by necessity.

[Dreknar20]

But that doesn't mean it is what would actually be best.

the other option has its own flaws too though.
Conflict flaring up is much more likely between 2 factions who consider themselves rivals or even downright hated enemies than over a single united faction.

[Aquamonkey]

the other option has its own flaws too though.
Conflict flaring up is much more likely between 2 factions who consider themselves rivals or even downright hated enemies than over a single united faction.

That conflict can also breed new and better weapons which can then be turned against the Legion. If everything is peaceful, people become complacent and disarmament occurs. Like what happened with the Alliance before the 3rd War and it nearly destroyed them.

[Dreknar20]

That conflict can also breed new and better weapons which can then be turned against the Legion.

Preparing and training to destroy each other, but no yet trying to destroy each other.
Thats a delicate balanace to maintain

[Aquamonkey]

Preparing and training to destroy each other, but no yet trying to destroy each other.
Thats a delicate balanace to maintain

So long as they keep it to skirmishes like they have through much of WoW, it's not going to really be a problem. When one side goes full derp conquest mode like Garrosh did (and what Wrathion wants), that's when both sides get severely depleted.

[Dreknar20]

When one side goes full derp conquest mode like Garrosh did (and what Wrathion wants), that's when both sides get severely depleted.

Thats the thing though, are leaders supposed to dictate policy based on some unforseen possibly non-existant enemy?

The only people that even remotely care about the Legion are Wrathion and the Draenei, others hardly care since there is no reason to. Why be worried about some goddam aliens from outer space when you have enemies right next door.

[Aquamonkey]

Thats the thing though, are leaders supposed to dictate policy based on some unforseen possibly non-existant enemy?

The only people that even remotely care about the Legion are Wrathion and the Draenei, others hardly care since there is no reason to. Why be worried about some goddam aliens from outer space when you have enemies right next door.

Well, we don't know how the inter-faction relations will shape up after SoO, but the Horde Rebellion being indebted to the Alliance and Varian seemingly leaving the Horde be suggests they likely aren't going to be going at each other very hard (aside from the usual skirmishes). It'll probably be a similar situation like after ICC, maybe even more cordial or they just leave each other alone to lick their wounds.

[Frontenac]

No. If they were going to go down the unlikely road towards yet another revamp, what they need to do is set everything at Year 0. Vanilla. Have everything work through as it did before, but upgrade and streamline the experience as necessary. At L60, have the world event at the Portal. At L70, have the Zombie invasion. At L80. Have the Elemental invasion. L80-L85 will have the post-Cata questlines and stories. At 85, the fall of Theramore. L85-L90 will be Pandaria.

Simply make everything fit together in a storyline that makes sense and keeps the stories in Vanilla that were good. Unfortunately, fixing what went wrong with Cata would require too much work and offer too little return to justify the investment.

EJL

I'm beginning to wonder if they shouldn't simply end WoW and start WoW2 with a new storyline and a better way to make the leveling experience and the world fit with the evolution of the story.

[Pheros]

Did you honestly expect them to revamp old zones AGAIN?

Yes, yes I do. As previously mentioned, it's completely ridiculous for Varian to roll up in Org, knock it over, kill the warchief, hold ALL the cards, and then just turn it over for nothing in return.

[Florena]

Yes, yes I do. As previously mentioned, it's completely ridiculous for Varian to roll up in Org, knock it over, kill the warchief, hold ALL the cards, and then just turn it over for nothing in return.

Lore != game mechanics. Just because they don't update zones in the Cataclysm timeline doesn't mean that story wise things aren't happening.

[7seti]

Lore != game mechanics. Just because they don't update zones in the Cataclysm timeline doesn't mean that story wise things aren't happening.

If Theramore can be phased into a smoking crater, then they can change something to reflect the Alliance raid on Orgrimmar. As it stands, you could remove the Alliance side entirely without affecting anything in the story.