[Balance] 5.4 Changes and Thoughts

[Deleted]

Losing 15% damage reduction is upsetting. I'm kind of used to how much my class can survive and risk based on 3 years exp. This is going to all change, albeit new encounters anyway I guess so we shall see. kind of like being a ranged off-tank though lol.

I like "Astral communion will now move towards Lunar on default". Saves me 8 seconds of channeling before each pull

[Deleted]

I like "Astral communion will now move towards Lunar on default". Saves me 8 seconds of channeling before each pull

But we are using the Solar opener now :<

in case you missed the new opener, it adds 8 seconds to everyone, well done blizz

[Stommped]

Also you're wrong with your latest post. HotW damage as cat (from balance druid) is half or less than what you would do as a boomkin and feral's wrathing was nerfed pretty heavily as well. It's really not even worth the shift form cost unless you can literally do 0 damage from ranged, which has never been the case.

How am I wrong? Did I say it was more damage or even equivalent damage? I said it lets you fill that role and added if mob had a magic reflect or something you would want to use that role. Feral damage > 0 damage. I also stated that Feral to Moonkin and Moonkin to Feral should be pointless barring something bizarre like I described. It's much more important to be able to go from Tank to Healer to DPS. Again if Feral was a DPS improvement then it nuders the whole point of the talent. Going from Ranged DPS to melee DPS is about as least "hybridy" as you can get.

- - - Updated - - -

Whilst I can mostly agree with what you've written above, you also have to bear in mind that HotW has been buffed for Resto to also provide a huge bonus to their main role when activated. This, to me, seems both a little unfair and contradictory on Blizzard's part - they can do excellent dps for 45s and also get a big buff to their main role, healing. However, Mooncatting still sucks, not particularly because of damage, but because of Energy constraints. It'd be nice to see Energy costs for the non-Feral activated portion reduced by 50% (a la Berserk). It would go a long way to making it decent again (and I really miss the playstyle of Mooncat, I don't want the stupidly big numbers to come back again) and make it not such a huge dps loss as it is currently. Like many others have said, I find the current incarnation of HotW as Balance extremely bland and boring, because in most raid fights - even progression ones - it gets used for about 8-10s of its 45s duration, to channel Tranq, throw out a NS+HT, maybe a Rejuvenation or two. If that's really their intent for Balance, could we get a 50% duration and c/d reduction on it?

I feel that my suggestion for Mooncatting could restore the fun of the playstyle without making it grossly overpowered. I doubt the Int->Agi conversion would need to be changed at all.

The On Use portion of HotW is not supposed to be a DPS improving CD like NV. It just fills a niche should you for whatever reason not be able to cast spells (Interrupting Jolt locks out your Starfire? HotW Feral is better than un eclipsed Wraths with no energy gain for those 10 seconds). The DPS from HotW comes from the 6% intellect, that is what is used to balance against the DPS from NV.

[Mystikal]

I'm not asking for HotW Cat to be a dps gain akin to NV, I'm simply asking for it to not be such a huge dps loss in places I'd expect it not to be.

Example: Durumu hc, moving for the maze typically gets done in melee. Since you can't realistically spam LS if you've got powerful DoTs up, going Mooncat should theoretically be a dps gain. Unfortunately, simply waiting for Starsurge procs and using them is better than going HotW Cat and risking overwriting procs whilst in Cat Form.

Your own example kind of demonstrates my point. HotW Cat is only a dps gain when you do something incredibly stupid and find yourself unable to do your normal rotation. But on Wind Lord hc? Feral using HotW+Hurricane was unquestionably a massive dps gain. Restos and Guardians can get huge numbers with spellcasting with the activated portion and those specs all get the passive gain as well. Is it too much to ask for to have one fight in a tier where you look at it and think "Yeah, going Mooncat there will definitely get me a dps gain if I do it properly"?

Personally, I don't think so. But because Blizzard seems to disagree, we get a talent that, for PvE purposes, is incredibly bland and boring for 1 of the 4 Druid specs. In addition, in my mind, it breaks Blizzard's mantra of "active talents should be better than passive ones". HotW beats NV most of the time and, for Balance, is completely passive. Mooncat *should* be a dps gain if you use it properly, but it doesn't have to be as absurd as it was back in 5.0.

[huth]

Your own example kind of demonstrates my point. HotW Cat is only a dps gain when you do something incredibly stupid and find yourself unable to do your normal rotation. But on Wind Lord hc? Feral using HotW+Hurricane was unquestionably a massive dps gain. Restos and Guardians can get huge numbers with spellcasting with the activated portion and those specs all get the passive gain as well. Is it too much to ask for to have one fight in a tier where you look at it and think "Yeah, going Mooncat there will definitely get me a dps gain if I do it properly"?

I think it is. The use isn't supposed to be a DPS gain. But also keep in mind that 5.0 was where it was to strong for everybody.

[Stommped]

I'm not asking for HotW Cat to be a dps gain akin to NV, I'm simply asking for it to not be such a huge dps loss in places I'd expect it not to be.

Example: Durumu hc, moving for the maze typically gets done in melee. Since you can't realistically spam LS if you've got powerful DoTs up, going Mooncat should theoretically be a dps gain. Unfortunately, simply waiting for Starsurge procs and using them is better than going HotW Cat and risking overwriting procs whilst in Cat Form.

Your own example kind of demonstrates my point. HotW Cat is only a dps gain when you do something incredibly stupid and find yourself unable to do your normal rotation. But on Wind Lord hc? Feral using HotW+Hurricane was unquestionably a massive dps gain. Restos and Guardians can get huge numbers with spellcasting with the activated portion and those specs all get the passive gain as well. Is it too much to ask for to have one fight in a tier where you look at it and think "Yeah, going Mooncat there will definitely get me a dps gain if I do it properly"?

Personally, I don't think so. But because Blizzard seems to disagree, we get a talent that, for PvE purposes, is incredibly bland and boring for 1 of the 4 Druid specs. In addition, in my mind, it breaks Blizzard's mantra of "active talents should be better than passive ones". HotW beats NV most of the time and, for Balance, is completely passive. Mooncat *should* be a dps gain if you use it properly, but it doesn't have to be as absurd as it was back in 5.0.

Yeah I tend to agree with Blizzard's thinking on this. This tier specifically is made up with DPS + Healing (or tanking) boosting talents. The DPS portion of the HotW talent is the 6% intellect, the on use portion is supposed to be the healing (or tanking) portion. If the On Use portion was also a DPS boost then it just becomes a pure DPS talent, far better than anything on that tier if you are a DPS. And again if we start using HotW for purely a DPS boost and not a healing/tank it defeats the purpose of the "hybrid" nature this tier is going for.

I do agree it would add some spice to the rotation if they could make it DPS gain if used properly, but I think if it were to work the way you want it to then it belongs in the 3rd talent tier used as normal DPS CD when there are no ranged only mechanics to worry about.

I should clarify that I agree with Blizzard's thinking on HotW on use not being a DPS boost because I think that keeps it in line with the overall talent tier, which makes sense. But I am not a fan of this tier going for Hybrid play style in the first place. I think our Tranq should be as powerful as it is with HotW baseline because of the 8min CD and then they should just blow up this tier next expansion and come up with new shit. I won't hold my breath though.

[Deleted]

It doesnt need to be a dps boost atall, just much closer to the norm you pull without using hotw.

I think that when you use Hotw you should gain 1 new spell for each form that your spec doesnt have (bar the spec your currently in)

So Non Tank will gain SI in bear form
Non Resto will gain maybe lifebloom or healing shrooms or WG
Non Feral should gain Rip finisher, or thrash
Non Balance should gain Starsurge or Starfire.

Just an idea to make it more interesting. And yeah bring the boomkin -> feral levels abit closer, you need to remember its only 45 seconds, could even reduce the duration tbh. It shouldnt be a dps gain, but you should be able to switch form and not lose huge dps, like Stommped said, if you mess up on DA or something and get locked out, it should be an option. Same with Feral -> caster

Healing levels are fine as they are.
Tanking levels are bad unless your feral spec'd.

What do you think? I feel this would make the talent so much more interesting.
And your right that it wont change next patch, but maybe for future expansions

[Liax]

Thoughts on the RPPM changes and how it'll affect us in the next patch?

[Mystikal]

Continuing the discussion on HotW, I would be curious to know why we even get Cat Form bonuses if there isn't any practical PvE situation where they're worth using. If Blizzard's intent for HotW for Balance is simply to be a healing boost, I'd rather trade-in the non-functional Cat Form bonuses for more healing power e.g. gaining access to Swiftmend whilst HotW is up.

It really disappoints me that we get Cat Form bonuses, only for them to be a loss in every conceivable situation, outside of doing something stupid - and I mention that because I feel strongly that no talent should only ever be useful if you've f**ked things up. I would be very, very interested to know when Blizzard thinks we would be making use of the Cat Form bonuses.

As Ragingblaze said, I'd be happy to settle even for dps neutral at this stage - anything to let me get a little bit more interaction out of the talent than simply using right before a Tranquility or HT bomb.

I apologise if any of my posts come off as whining, they are not supposed to and I absolutely am not. I do, however, feel very passionately about the playstyle of my Druid (time to be 'that guy', but I have played and raided as Balance literally since day one and still love the spec as much now as I did then) and want to recapture some more of that original 'shifting between forms to be truly druidic' feel. Mooncatting and Fae Empowerment are the closest we've ever come to that original Vanilla theme and I feel very sad that Blizzard's idea of bringing it back for us is "have something to make Tranquility heal for more".

[Pascal]

Thoughts on the RPPM changes and how it'll affect us in the next patch?

It will affect whether we use our old one wrath cast toward lunar opener or solar-blow-everything opener. I guess dependent on which trinkets, exactly, an individual balance druid is using. That's really the only thing it will affect, which is the entire purpose of the proposed change. Without RPPM trinkets, both openers are close to the same DPS (right?). So, if we have two RPPM trinkets that have 100% at 90 seconds, we'd still use solar opener. If we had two trinkets with more than 90 seconds, maybe we could/should go back to opening with lunar?

[huth]

HotW is always useful. It's just the Use effect that is only for fuckups. But that's a minor part of the talent, the big one is the 6% Int/Agi/Sta.
I don't think it should have more interaction, as it is the passive choice for the tier.

You might also want to reexamine druids during Vanilla. What you want to "recapture" never existed in the first place.

Thoughts on the RPPM changes and how it'll affect us in the next patch?

Most of the relevant RPPM mechanics are above 1 proc per 90 seconds, so it's basically a guaranteed proc at the start of a fight.

[Mystikal]

I disagree - using HotW+Tranq to counter a 5th or 6th Rampage on Megaera, for instance, isn't a fuckup, but it is an intelligent use of the talent. So is using it to rapidly patch up the raid after an Interrupting Jolt from Dark Animus or throwing a few Rejuvenations around to ease a bit of healing pressure. That part of the talent can be used proactively and intelligently and is the part I like. The part I don't - which I keep alluding to - is having bonuses to Cat Form which, in PvE, are never of benefit. It's downright confusing for me because I see the bonuses, I try to think of situations where they'd be useful, but they never are.

I'm curious as to why Ferals using HotW+Hurricane on Wind Lord (hc) to game literally meter-topping levels of AoE dps is considered an acceptable use of the talent, but Balance being able to use Cat Form single-target somewhere is so heinous. Remember, Ferals could still do this after the nerf. I'd rather Cat Form gain no bonus for my spec at all than to have pointless bonuses. I can see from this thread that I'm not the only Druid to feel that way, but for each Druid like myself, there is another who is happy with the talent as it is, so the chance of any changes occurring to this facet of it is negligible. I just find it incredibly disappointing.

[Juvencus]

Thoughts on the RPPM changes and how it'll affect us in the next patch?

Thing is if you take our high haste levels alone, which allow to skip the dead-eclipse-space while Incarnation is up, it brings Solar opener at the same DPS as Lunar opener. Now add Legendary Meta and RPPM then Solar comes ahead. Even if trinkets aren't RPPM we still have the Meta etc to benefit from Solar Opener.

[snorecb]

I apologise if this is an inappropriate time to ask, but could someone perhaps explain how CD usage works for Solar Opener? When to use NV, Incarnation, etc. Thanks in advance for any replies.

[Deleted]

I apologise if this is an inappropriate time to ask, but could someone perhaps explain how CD usage works for Solar Opener? When to use NV, Incarnation, etc. Thanks in advance for any replies.

Instantly...

You Start by Prepotting+starfall -> Pop all CDs -> DoT+blow shrooms -> Starfire/starsurge -> Second starfall(after first runs out) -> move to lunar when CA is over -> Starfire/surge -> Starfall (when second one is over) -> Normal rotation

Refreshing dots just before CA falls off is usually a good idea aswell.
And to note, you start IN solar and not one cast before it like a pre-lunar starter.

[xtramuscle]

With the changes to RPPM I see lunar coming back tbh. It should give us those extra few seconds to get thru lunar and into CA before everything lines up.

[Aboubacar]

The idea of a solar opener with INC + CA on the pull was primarily used to take advantage of stacking the troll racial, UVLS trinket, and/or fights like council.

You shouldn't be using INC +CA immediately on all fights unless you have normal tforged UVLS or higher, or lust on the pull. I think it's too early to tell, considering the feedback has been pretty negative to the change and to RPPM in general, but if the meta gem is heavily affected that will make that style of cooldown useage less optimal on most encounters. It would be 50/50 with either style of opener on say council imo if meta gem is heavily affected.

Again, it's really important that you are a troll, engineer, tailor etc to get full benefit from that playstyle. I do hope people don't play that way all of the time especially if they have a trinket like wushulays or breath of the hydra.

[mikoslav]

in case you missed the new opener, it adds 8 seconds to everyone, well done blizz

minor glyph for switching that would solve the problem.

[Deleted]

Btw not sure if anyone talked about it recently, but last time i was on PTR my 2 set was critting ALOT more than before, more or less equal to my crit %

So thats nice

[Cyous]

I'll just take Treants and wait for those trinket procs...opening burst will be pretty dead for some people. As for UVLS...I'm fairly sure that trinket is simply put on the "DE list" if it drops (and it's not a 20 ilvl upgrade). Meh...RPPM needs a floor and ceiling internal cooldown. And the procs shouldn't be so damned powerful in the first place....