A great write up that Blizzard should think about

[Tomana]

Vanilla was different compared to now though. I recall lots of people talking to each other, trying to figure out quests, setting up groups, friendships were made, enemies were made, etiquette was made. Entitlement was very low.

Well, I certainly have no such recollections. Trade channels were full of idiots, pretty much like today.

Regardless, a sandbox approach and player driven instead of Company directed is the way to go, for any MMO. Steal the best ideas from both camps.

No it's not. Sandbox + player drive has one tremendous inconvenience. The said players tend to regroup into packs according to whatever arbitrary criteria and exclude everyone else. This leads to huge "clan wars" (see EvE online) where a new player is completely lost. Consequently, you will retain some hardcore players (~500k if you're lucky) and exclude everyone else. In essence, you got a niche game, which is a valid business model for a small company, but not for EA or Blizz.

[Faroth]

Despite everyone disagreeing with this, please explain the dead realm forums, dead grouping, dead 5mans, removal of group quests, removal of hard, non-zergable world bosses, removal of exclusive 10man raids, removal of world pvp, antisocial lfg/lfd, list can go on forever.

This is what I find ironic. People are coming in here saying that these ideas would kill WoW and that WoW is still the best MMO.

Open your eyes, people. Everything listed in the OP can be applied to Classic WoW through Wrath compared to Cata/MoP. The continued removal of these things has indeed contributed in some way to the design philosophy that is contributing to the exodus of players.

Despite what you've seen from Blizzard, there is not only two opposites to a spectrum. There are multiple in betweens that can be approached.

Harsher death penalties.
Current: 10 silver and 30 second corpse run
EQ: XP loss, potential de-leveling, possible loss of corpse and all gear

But look there in the middle you had Classic WoW with a reasonable repair bill for its economy and a corpse run in ghost form that was just long enough to be annoying.

Or again, look at Vanguard. Corpse run wearing your soul bind gear to retrieve the items where you died for no xp penalty, no armor damage for repairs OR just talk to the equivalent of the spirit healer and get rezzed where you are, everything back with gear damage and a small xp penalty (no de-leveling ever). And the player chooses which to take.

Four different variations on "harsher death penalties"

Don't look at this in black and white, think of if it's possible to incorporate any for a different experience.

But I'd wager most are stuck on the instant gratification WoW developed. Yes, WoW killed the MMORPG genre. You rarely see that term anymore, it's just "MMO" now.


Worth nothing, though, I've already stated these changes wouldn't work for WoW. Even easing the dial back towards TBC/Wrath probably wouldn't work. These ideas have to be approached properly in a brand new MMO, not reverse one already in motion.

[Bizerk]

- Dead realm forums: why post there + pop concentration on higher servers.
- Dead grouping: mostly function of population. People flock on 5-10 highest servers, then whine about queues. Go figure.
- Dead 5mans: what?
- Dead Group quests? Errr... Thunder isles has some. Or you mean leveling group quests? Well, the problem is that when everyone is max level, finding a group for a low-level group quest is next to impossible.
- Exclusive 10 man raids? Well, 10 man guilds whined about considering a lesser raiding population, so Blizzard made every instance in 10 and 25.
- World PVP died with the introduction of BGs in vanilla. Should be about time to get over it.
- LFD: because spending 1h to get 3 dpsers was sooooo much fun on my realm.

You are pretty much confirming the lack of community the article was focused about in the first place. So far everything you described is a decrease in quality and immersion in favor of player convenience and casual-friendliness.

Fact remains that as long as wow is the best mmo, it will only look down due to lack of incentive to improve itself.

[SodiumChloride]

No it's not. Sandbox + player drive has one tremendous inconvenience. The said players tend to regroup into packs according to whatever arbitrary criteria and exclude everyone else. This leads to huge "clan wars" (see EvE online) where a new player is completely lost. Consequently, you will retain some hardcore players (~500k if you're lucky) and exclude everyone else. In essence, you got a niche game, which is a valid business model for a small company, but not for EA or Blizz.

We are already "excluding people" in WoW. You think successful raiding guilds will take just anyone?

You can have "clan wars" without leaving the new player "lost". They aren't mutually exclusive.

[Grogo]

This is what I find ironic. People are coming in here saying that these ideas would kill WoW and that WoW is still the best MMO.

Open your eyes, people. Everything listed in the OP can be applied to Classic WoW through Wrath compared to Cata/MoP. The continued removal of these things has indeed contributed in some way to the design philosophy that is contributing to the exodus of players.

Despite what you've seen from Blizzard, there is not only two opposites to a spectrum. There are multiple in betweens that can be approached.

Harsher death penalties.
Current: 10 silver and 30 second corpse run
EQ: XP loss, potential de-leveling, possible loss of corpse and all gear

But look there in the middle you had Classic WoW with a reasonable repair bill for its economy and a corpse run in ghost form that was just long enough to be annoying.

Or again, look at Vanguard. Corpse run wearing your soul bind gear to retrieve the items where you died for no xp penalty, no armor damage for repairs OR just talk to the equivalent of the spirit healer and get rezzed where you are, everything back with gear damage and a small xp penalty (no de-leveling ever). And the player chooses which to take.

Four different variations on "harsher death penalties"

Don't look at this in black and white, think of if it's possible to incorporate any for a different experience.

But I'd wager most are stuck on the instant gratification WoW developed. Yes, WoW killed the MMORPG genre. You rarely see that term anymore, it's just "MMO" now.


Worth nothing, though, I've already stated these changes wouldn't work for WoW. Even easing the dial back towards TBC/Wrath probably wouldn't work. These ideas have to be approached properly in a brand new MMO, not reverse one already in motion.

That is exactly right, a harsher death penalty could be a possible 4-5 different scenarios. The current wow one is debatable, in fact...why even be able to die in an MMO if it is such a pain in the ass OR so minuscule it defeats the purpose of even having it happen? Having a conversation about possible improvements isn't stealing your God away, it's having an engaging discussion on hte possibilities to make MMO's and perhaps Blizzards MMO better.

[Tomana]

We are already "excluding people" in WoW. You think successful raiding guilds will take just anyone?

No, which is why you have accessible leveling, 5-mans and LFR. In a sandbox game, what do you have besides gathering and maybe some crafting?

You can have "clan wars" without leaving the new player "lost". They aren't mutually exclusive.

No, but they provide a strong deterrent. Which is something you want to avoid. That is why, even in EvE, you have sec levels.

[Sky High]

they still have EQ1 servers up if you really want to suck on that nostalgia popsicle.

[Tomana]

You are pretty much confirming the lack of community the article was focused about in the first place. So far everything you described is a decrease in quality and immersion in favor of player convenience and casual-friendliness.

Spending 1 hour to find a group is not immersion, it's stupidity.

[Gren]

I was thinking of forming a reply on each and every point.
I believe this will sum it up; These have been used in many other games, they are terrible ideas. That's part of why WoW is so successful, it doesn't have all that junk in it.

[soulzek]

Death penalties do not instill "respect" for the virtual world. All they do is encourage safe play. I don't want a game where I have to huddle in a town for an hour begging for an escort to help me survive my next fight. I want to be able to bite off a little more than I can chew just to see if I can stomach it this time. If that elite happens to take me down this time I don't want a 20 minute run back to my corpse or a loss of experience just because I dared to take a risk and challenge myself. You can play that game if you want, but I'll stick to my "safe" games.

[Kathandira]

Know what would solve the queue issues? Shut down 1/2 the servers.

WoW at it's peak was at roughly 11milion subs. It is now down to 7.7subs. WoW is almost at 1/2 of it's max population, which is why we have so many servers. With so many low population servers, why not offer free transfers in phases and shut down a bunch of servers. that way the population on almost all servers would be in the medium to high category. This would also save Blizz a little cash on server maintenance.

Also, if they decided to do this, they could modify the way LFR/LFD looks for players. it can set your realm as first query, then if none are found from your realm have it query for players on other realms.

Now you would atleast have a few players from your realm there. When ever i am in a random and i get grouped with someone from my realm, its like winning the social lottery. I immediatly get giddy and strike up a conversation with them, and potentially continue to group with that person for more randoms.

[SamR]

Open your eyes, people.

My eyes are open and I see no MMOs with a health population still employing all these grindy tedious mechanics that you so love.

Or again, look at Vanguard.

Oh I remember Vanguard. It was right before TBC and all the old schoolers were talking about how there was a great new MMO coming out that was going to bring MMOs back to their roots. Away from the casual-fest of WoW. Because instant gratification in the form of the TBC expansion was ruining WoW. Funny in retrospect.

[Kathandira]

I was thinking of forming a reply on each and every point.
I believe this will sum it up; These have been used in many other games, they are terrible ideas. That's part of why WoW WAS so successful, it doesn't have all that junk in it.

But now people are getting bored because WoW is TOO accessible. Eventually, the last 2 million will be the hardcore followers who have been there since day 1. Eventually Blizzard will need to cater to the hardcore fans again.

[Grogo]

I was thinking of forming a reply on each and every point.
I believe this will sum it up; These have been used in many other games, they are terrible ideas. That's part of why WoW is so successful, it doesn't have all that junk in it.

I know, WoW is just like Walmart and McDonalds, and yes they are successful.

- - - Updated - - -

Death penalties do not instill "respect" for the virtual world. All they do is encourage safe play. I don't want a game where I have to huddle in a town for an hour begging for an escort to help me survive my next fight. I want to be able to bite off a little more than I can chew just to see if I can stomach it this time. If that elite happens to take me down this time I don't want a 20 minute run back to my corpse or a loss of experience just because I dared to take a risk and challenge myself. You can play that game if you want, but I'll stick to my "safe" games.

With no consequences, there is no risk or challenge. Your point makes no sense to me.

[Amerissis]

I see only one sentence of truth in the OPs copy/paste article:

You’re not here to be popular

Yes, some people will like a tedious MMO like described, but companies love to make profit and have as many people as possible enjoy their game. Purposely making a game that you know only 0,001% of the current MMO players will play, does not make money. Go play EQ or EVE Online if you want tedious.

[Ronduwil]

What's really humorous is how quick folks are to assume that these are ideas that should be in WoW, when the article is about a different game entirely.

So many jerked knees, orthopedists are going to be working overtime this weekend.

Maybe that "misconception" wouldn't have come about if the linked article hadn't specifically stated this in its first paragraph:

The once mighty Blizzard Entertainment has had to suffer the embarrassment of years of declining subscriptions to their once bloated cash cow World of Warcraft. Even one of their former developers rightly blamed them for the demise of the genre. Perhaps the release of the first WoW children’s book will turn things around for them.

Who are these orthopedists going to be treating again? I suggest you actually read the original article before criticizing other people's comments on it.

[Satus]

I absolutely love this set of suggestions because it crops up about every 3 years or so and someone tries to make their half remembered through rose colored glasses version of Early EQ/Late UO/DAoC and then it bombs because well, we can go through it point by point.

1. Harsh Death Penalty and Corpse Runs
Death in a fantasy virtual world needs to have serious consequences. Without a tangible death penalty players will never respect your virtual world. Substantive loss such as experience and requiring players to retrieve their corpses is a basic requirement of bringing back that EverQuest magic. Without the possibility of loss, a virtual world becomes a safe amusement park. Let’s also not forget that a death penalty can be mitigated by player resurrections and corpse finding abilities given to special classes — both are class interdependence design elements that help to strengthen the community.
Failure is not bad; in fact it makes us better players. Pandering creates lazy and inept players. Sure, some players will hate a MMO company that brings back a harsh death penalty but that is the price of leadership. You’re not here to be popular; you’re here to make the very best virtual world! Uneasy lies head that wears the crown. Better to be hated by many, loved by a few and respected by all.

This first one is interesting. It immediately cuts to an interesting dilemma in that the only means of "punishing" a player for failure is by costing them time. Its just a question of how much. WoW tends to be somewhere in between 1-5 minutes of time. It takes a little bit to get back to your body, and a little bit to pay your repair bill. If you are in a raid group maybe even call it 10 minutes, since it can take some time to reassemble to try again. What he wants isn't a change, but instead just a greater cost of time, call it 1-5 hours if my hazy EQ memories are correct. The problem with this line of thinking is that every hour spent making up for a death is an hour spent not doing something else. 1-5 minutes is an annoyance, IME it is enough of one that people can learn from their mistakes, but my experience isn't his. What he is suggesting could teach players caution, or it could just piss them off. It certainly would err toward the latter if he expects content to be hard since you can only really learn by doing in a MMO.

2. Grouping Must be Encouraged and Soloing Must be Discouraged.
There is no way around the fundamental requirement that at it’s core a fantasy MMORPG should to encourage and promote that players form groups and experience the world together. SOE should reward groups of 2, 3, 4 and more players that band together and give them a synergistic advantage based on complementary class abilities. Grouping creates community. Soloing destroys community.
Needing to group also creates a much better community and better players. Players who behave like idiots soon find out that their reputation will precede them and they won’t get groups. Without groups, they can’t progress. Little Johnny learns a lesson that he has to behave considerately or he will never get a group.
Allowing easy soloing to the level cap will simply not work and will trivialize the entire world. Players already have scores of MMOs and video games they can play if they are looking for a single player video game. Be bold SOE. Do not give in!

This is kind of meaningless truism when talking about MMOs, since even a solo player is interacting with other people CONSTANTLY if your ecosystem is healthy. Assuming they aren't always alone in their zone, only using vendors and other npcs for all their economic interaction, and completely unaffiliated with any sort of guild or faction, then they are affecting other players, knowingly or not. What he actually should have said based on what he is advocating is "group play should be encouraged, play without a group should be punished." Again this is not new, WoW already does this to a degree. When in a group with friends or strangers you get synergistic buffs, you can tackle harder content, and lately they've removed a lot of the penalties that used to come with it (most bear asses are flagged as lootable by everyone now). WoW could certainly stand to reward group play more, but its taking steps. Punishing play without a group is a lot trickier though. Right now it is almost impossible to have a single player experience on WoW. CRZ has made it hard to be the only person in a zone, and being in a guild and using the Auctionhouse are both such huge carrots that interaction with others is almost mandatory. But its subtle, and there are layers of abstraction. He complains that assholes can thrive if they can play on their own, and that their bad reputations won't shut them out of interaction with other players, but with sufficient abstraction a players bad behavior can be rendered meaningless. If a player wants to offer bad deals on trades, for example, to get ahead there are two means of recourse. One is hoping that through word of mouth he gets a bad name and people don't want to trade with him, the other is by creating a system for trades that is open and transparent and encouraging its use (the Auction House). WoW often favors the latter for better or worse.


3. Stop the Hero Crap
I think at this point the MMO community is really sick and tired of being spoon fed false praise and constantly told we are HEROES. It’s insulting to our intelligence. EQ Next devs need to focus on the we instead of the me. WoW style quests are a big part of the problem here as they continually force feed players the hero self-esteem mantra. People already get enough bogus self-esteem from parents, teachers and politicians. Telling players they are special breeds self-centered players instead of community-centered players. True heroism is its own reward and a real hero doesn’t require a Flaming Sword of Doom for killing 10 rats.

This point right here, and several others that follow, is ultimately the core of his argument. Its also a horribly flawed core that doesn't last, we'll talk about the real reasons why in a fiew points. For now just read what he is saying and note that his only use of the term "we" or "our" is only when he is praising his own intelligence, projecting his view on everyone, or saying that they need to do what he wants for everyone. THIS WILL BE IMPORTANT LATER.

4. Let Players Form their Own Memories and Make their Own Stories
With WoW, the story became the focal point. The quest designers and storytellers dictated how players should act. Players were herded into an episodic narrative that has no deviation and only one outcome. Players became puppets that blindly went from golden question mark to golden question mark doing the bidding of the quest designer.
Force feeding players stories and that are not their own and instead driving them into the box of contrived narratives is a recipe for disaster and erodes the cooperative spirit which is the bedrock of creating a good community. This is what Blizzard has been doing for years and they have the worst player community in MMO history to show for it.


I can think of about 4 quests that WoW has spoon-fed me story from that I remember really fondly, he has a point that many people don't want an episodic narrative. But he then shackles it into a false dilemma by saying that narrative prevents people from forming their own stories and memories. This is objectively wrong. Ask anyone who has played WoW for a while and they will have tons of stories from their experiences that have shaped their vies on the game and made them keep coming back to it. Many of those stories will be of failures and gameplay the devs never intended, and thats OK. I've only ever once seen a MMO that actively interfered with people doing this, and it was, ironically enough, UO. The design philosophy in UO actively prevented you from making many of your own stories because you were in a zero sum game with other players for the things you needed to make your memory. More about zero sum games later. Please note again that he doesn't group himself with any of the "puppets" he is criticizing. This is important.

5. Quests Should Be Rare and Special
EverQuest had precious few quests and the ones that did exist actually meant something. Just surviving the harsh world was reward enough. Rarely were there WoW style “to do lists” WoW that distracted players. Nothing will kill EQ Next faster than if SOE inundates players with endless tutorials and quests. Solo quests kill community! Quests have become their own form of transactional grinding in most MMOs that copied WoW.
If there have to be quests, then don’t make obtaining them easy; make players work hard for them by allowing extensive and meaningful two-way conversations with NPCs. With the integration of Storybricks technology hopefully there will be significant opportunity for this to happen.
Also, put expiry times on quests. Give special quests for groups only. Quests should make sense and have a legitimate reason for being completed. If Farmer Brown needs a bucket of water then don’t give thousands of other players the same quest. Make tasks applicable to the NPCs and to the immediate situation around them. If a dragon is burning down the village, don’t allow an NPC to give a quest that has the player going out to collect flowers in the fields.
6. No Instancing
If I were to blame one single feature for the devastation of the MMO genre it would be instancing. Instancing has been a cancer for MMOs. It’s a design cop out. Nothing has destroyed community and the sense of immersion more than the scourge of instancing. Instancing is an abomination to the notion of status. Instancing is a form of virtual world socialism where everyone is entitled to the same content. Instancing creates a sense of entitlement within players.
You can’t have Lord Nagafen — the famous Norrathian dragon — being simultaneously killed hundreds of times each night and thousands of times each week and expect that to not erode the sense of accomplishment for killing a dragon. Instancing is really a virtual world within a virtual world. Instancing is responsible for a host of evils in MMORPGs: it separates players from each other, it creates barriers, it impedes freedom, it devalues achievements and status, it encourages farming and creates a glut of loot. Community dungeons MUST be brought back into EQ Next!

7. Player Drama and Conflict is Good **
Both Blizzard and SOE, with WoW and EQ2 fell into the philosophical trap that held that eliminating player conflict was a good thing in a virtual world. They foolishly believed that when players disagree and fight over various things like contested spawns and resources, kill stealing, and trains that it was a bad thing and the game needed to have built in anti-exploit/anti-conflict mechanics built in to stop it. This had the unintended consequences of sanitizing the MMO and treating players like prisoners by taking away their freedoms. As this MMO design malpractice continued, suddenly trains stopped as mobs were put on leashes. You could no longer attack a guard or member of your own faction.
How a MMO studio can promote a rich fantasy world full of drama and conflict on one hand but be against it within the ranks of your playerbase on the other hand is mind-boggling. Emergent gameplay is all about letting the players work it out on their own. Freedom should be promoted instead of curtailed. Players should be allowed to police themselves. Instead of banning griefers, turn them into outlaws. Prevent them from entering cities and banking. Put bounties on their heads that law abiding players can claim.
Allowing conflict will require more GMs but it’s worth it. I want to be part of a world where there is drama and intrigue going on with players. After all this is supposed to be a massively multiplayer online role-playing game not a supervised day care center.


I am going to address all three of these at once, because they are actually the same point they are pretty much the rotten core of his argument. Overall most MMOs are not zero sum games (for anyone unfamiliar with the term, a zero sum game means there is a winner and a loser, one person must not get "a thing" for the other to get "a thing"). Overall in MMOs, The more people participate, the more people get cool experiences. But within MMOs most individual interactions and experiences are zero sum, for me to kill this boss means someone else will not get to (at least until it respawns), for me to win this piece of loot means someone else will not. The core of his argument rests upon the idea that Zero Sum experiences ultimately make the game better because it feels better to win when someone else has lost. He thinks this way because he is sure that he will be a winner. Think back to when I asked you to make note of his lack of self inclusion into certain groups. He says he doesn't want everyone to have epic questlines and everyone to be big damn heros, but then he still talks about making sure that there are big world bosses that are shaping and destroying the world, that can only be killed once. He says he doesn't want to see "virtual socialism" because that means that someone didn't lose. Its a common mindset among investment bankers and sociopaths, that the only true measure of success is how well off you are compared to your peers, its not enough for you to be succeeding, others must be failing or you cannot feel good.

The problem with his argument, and the problem with the older school of MMO design that fell into it (and it did so accidentally in many ways, Lord British wanted UO to be a cooperative utopia, it became some sort of megaslime corporation cyberpunk nightmare with more dragons), is that when you have a zero sum game where the best way to win is to be there first and longest (which he has been advocating throughout his points, costing players more time on death to catch up, not allowing people to catch up alone), new players come in at a disadvantage that gets harder to overcome with each additional player. In effect, they cap their own subscriber base and wreck their own chances of financial success. Blizzard in many ways stumbled upon this by accident when they started WoW (since WoW really started as "everquest with less bullshit"), but every MMO since can and should be taking notes.

8. No Easy Travel
Nothing makes a world smaller than providing fast means of travel. This is true for the real world as it is true for virtual worlds. Easy travel trivializes all of the hard work that environment artists and world builders and designers put into all of the zones.
Fast travel should only be made available to players via special classes such as wizard and druids. This has the wonderful side-effect of promoting class worth and class interdependence. Another benefit was that players would congregate around druid rings and wizard portals areas in hopes of getting ports. Travel buffs such as the Spirit of Wolf should only be available from select classes as well. Again this encourages class interdependence.
Absolutely no flying mounts for players either. Insta-portals such as the ones that the original EQ had in the Plane of Knowledge were a disaster and made Norrath into a joke. Mounts should only be available at the highest of levels.


I know he intends this as yet another "arrgh it should cost more time" but I am kind of onboard. I actually like the fact that, say, Pandaria, doesn't let you fly in it until you've done it. That's a fun way to keep the world feeling big. I think there is something to be said for having fast travel over the long term, but he may have accidenta;;y had a point here.

Learning the Lessons from the Present is the funniest section because it is something he obviously hasn't and will not do.

[Kathandira]

I know, WoW is just like Walmart and McDonalds, and yes they are successful.

The only difference is Mcdonalds and Walmart are not losing sales in the millions each year.

It has been over a year since MoP released. 2 million subs have been lost in that time. Next xpac will drawn in upwards of a million, only to lose another 2million the next year. so 6.6 million at the start of the next xpac.

[Grogo]

You know what is tedious? Doing the same thing day after day as prescribed and directed. Being led by a harness and spoon fed, thats pretty tedious.

Is this not tedious?:

Log in

do dailies

do 5 mans ive done countless times

Raid same boss

Repeat along with 7.7 million others doing the exact same thing for the exact same reward

Nothing changes that schedule, nothing happens

How is that not tedious? You affect NOTHING in game.

- - - Updated - - -

The only difference is Mcdonalds and Walmart are not losing sales in the millions each year.

It has been over a year since MoP released. 2 million subs have been lost in that time. Next xpac will drawn in upwards of a million, only to lose another 2million the next year. so 6.6 million at the start of the next xpac.

I will also add that Mcdonalds and Walmart do not offer premium products, the people who routinely go there are awesome though.

[SamR]

You know what is tedious? Doing the same thing day after day as prescribed and directed. Being led by a harness and spoon fed, thats pretty tedious.

Is this not tedious?:

Log in

do dailies

do 5 mans ive done countless times

Raid same boss

Repeat along with 7.7 million others doing the exact same thing for the exact same reward

Nothing changes that schedule, nothing happens

How is that not tedious? You affect NOTHING in game.

You think the game's tedious. Don't play it. Play another game that you don't find tedious.

I find the game way less tedious than the horrible ideas you're trying to feed us in your OP.

I've gotten burned out on WoW a few times. I quit and did something else or went to play another game. Then when I felt like it, I started up WoW again. That's what normal people do.