Can the Alliance carry its own storyline?

[wych]

Honestly the Warcraft Story begins with the arrival of Orcs.

Yea sure there is a lot of history that happened before Orcs got to Azeroth - but the first two Warcraft games were 100% about Orcs (and their allies) versus Humans (and their allies).

Orcs were the aggressors, and the story was "Orcs Attack and Humans Defend" and then a bit of "Humans Counterattack, Orcs Defend".

However pretty much anything non-orc races did in Warcraft 1/2 BEFORE the arrival of Orcs is irrelevant to the story of those two games.

With the arrival of Warcraft 3 the history gets expanded (in game story, not books), and other races start to exist and matter (so orcs lose in popularity).

But honestly, WHAT would alliance do if Horde simply vanished?
Rebuild? Progress and prosperity? Peace and love?
I think the game would then cease to be WARcraft...

So, naturally, the game's story is focused on the AGGRESSIVE races and aggressive characters - which tend to be Horde's forte (not counting 3rd party villains like DW or LK), although blizz tried to implement wild varian and crazy jaina as of the last few years.

I like both the thrall/cairne/vol'jin's horde and the alliance - since garrosh came i completely abandoned the horde, since it stopped being the honorable horde i joyfully helped build during war3 and wow vanilla/tbc and even a bit into wotlk.

However i must say i am DISAPPOINTED with the alliance-centered lore in cataclysm and pandaria.
It just does not give the same EPIC VIBE as much as the horde's lore/story does.

Would i quit wow over the poor-ish alliance story? No, of course not.
Would i like better (and more) alliance centered story? Indeed, i would like more such lore - i got kind of bored looking at horde characters.

You make good points, but it made a lot more sense "Alliance defend Orcs attack" when the Orcs were aliens invading a planet.

Now the orcs have an equal foothold on Azeroth, it makes little sense for the Alliance to be passive, or for them to make such ridiculous decisions (SoO)

[Darmalus]

I guarantee that if the Horde players had gotten the same content development as the Alliance, we'd be seeing Horde tears on the forums.

This was called Classic WoW and WotLK. I don't remember many, if any, tears. Other than the Wrathgate you could easily forget the Horde even went to Northrend. To be honest only the Forsaken had any reason to go there.

The Horde is easier to write for simply because they are more aggressive and active and Blizzard has given them a more interesting backstory. As thespians say - the bad guys get all the best lines.

EJL

Blizzard has admitted they have a pro-human (not Alliance) bias, for obvious reasons. This tends to result in them dominating any organization where there are named human characters present. I think Blizz fell into the trap of writing the Alliance as a place they would want to live, rather than a place you want to read about. Pleasant, prosperous, harmonious... boring.

The Horde lacks any human presence, so there are no lures to make them fall into that trap. It would be a crappy place to live, but is exciting to read about. Lack of humans also means the narrative is more evenly divided.

[dlouhys]

Actually most of wow's villains are more directly tied to the Horde than anything else. Onyxia, Nefarian, Illidan, and Azshara were never alliance members. Arthas gave up his crown to tear it all down, Kel Thuzard did the same, Kaelthas left the alliance when Garithos let his people die in the name of humanity, even Staghelm and Bendictus left the alliance and committed their acts under another banner.

Onyxia wasn't an Alliance member but she posed as Lady Prestor in Stormwind before anyone realized they would be raiding her and Illidan was an Alliance hero predating WoW. If you're going to argue that Garrosh is horde lore and Arthas is not you should reread the story as they share a number of similarities.

[Jokubas]

Blizzard could be using SoO to progress the worgen story line. As we know, Sylvanas will be present at SoO, but Genn Grayemane won't be. What Blizzard should be doing is make Varian and Genn take advantage from this. Have Genn lead a group of Worge/SI:7 to assist the Freedom fighters in the fight to capture Gilneas. This gives the Alliance something they are Actively doing, shows that Varian will take advantage of situations. Progresses worgen which really need it and introduce the Alliance to a part of their own story they don't get to experience, the freedom fight for Gilneas under the hands of the rebels we meet in the Gilneas zone.

That would actually be pretty neat. The best part is that, if Blizzard wants to continue the war more or less the way it is now after Mists of Pandaria, it would give the Horde a reason to be upset with the Alliance. Right now, if the war returns shortly after Mists of Pandaria, it's going to make the Alliance look like utter morons for not finishing the Horde off when they were at their weakest.

But honestly, WHAT would alliance do if Horde simply vanished?
Rebuild? Progress and prosperity? Peace and love?
I think the game would then cease to be WARcraft...

Fight the Scourge, the Burning Legion, the Twilight's Hammer, etc. I don't know why people seem to forget that the wars haven't been about Alliance vs. Horde since Warcraft III brought in the Burning Legion (until now with the Garrosh thing, but even then it's side by side with the Old Gods and the Sha).

[wych]

Onyxia wasn't an Alliance member but she posed as Lady Prestor in Stormwind before anyone realized they would be raiding her and Illidan was an Alliance hero predating WoW. If you're going to argue that Garrosh is horde lore and Arthas is not you should reread the story as they share a number of similarities.

The difference is, like a lot of times in WoW, Arthas was an Alliance WARCRAFT hero, Garrosh was a horde WORLD OF WARCRAFT hero. If you only play World of Warcraft then you have no affiliation or in game link to Arthas at all

Most Alliance lore is either depicted pre-WoW or in a novel or lazily explained or hinted via quest texts.

[Aleksej89]

Also, to add, i think blizz stereotypes the races a tad too much.

Not to go into too much details, Humans (and the rest of the alliance) are shown as people who are bent on progress, diplomacy, intricate politics, voting (of various kinds), powerful noble houses and influential people, wealthy organizations and scientific groups, and even groups dedicated to preserving the environment.... pretty similar to our current human society - AND ALSO QUITE A BIT BORING, especially to the 12+ years old that WoW's playerbase tends to be.

Horde, on the other side, is based on the "rule of the strongest" (or, VERY rarely, rule of the wisest AND strongest).
The most influential are also the most physically or magically powerful, or better said because of their combat power they are influential.
Concept of voting pretty much does not exist, and politics are reduced to "i challenge you to the death for the warchief throne".

As you can see from these oversimplified concepts, WoW's 12+ year old playerbase is INFINITELY more attracted to "DA HORDE" with its ruff attitude and barbaric approach to culture, politics and progress.

Even making one of Horde characters (thrall) behave more "diplomatic" (as alliance would) ended up in a huge % of Horde's playerbase hating Thrall and "revolting" against him - how can a horde leader (or important figure) be anything other than barbaric and bloodthirsty... poor cairne and vol'jin are spinning in their metaphorical graves...

It is also easier (and more profitable) to make lore and stories for the (more popular) Horde faction.

[gcsmith]

That would actually be pretty neat. The best part is that, if Blizzard wants to continue the war more or less the way it is now after Mists of Pandaria, it would give the Horde a reason to be upset with the Alliance. Right now, if the war returns shortly after Mists of Pandaria, it's going to make the Alliance look like utter morons for not finishing the Horde off when they were at their weakest.


Fight the Scourge, the Burning Legion, the Twilight's Hammer, etc. I don't know why people seem to forget that the wars haven't been about Alliance vs. Horde since Warcraft III brought in the Burning Legion (until now with the Garrosh thing, but even then it's side by side with the Old Gods and the Sha).

Heck, you could even bring the Draenai into that conflict to be the "Holy smiters of undead* Send them with the worgen to push the forsaken back. Maybe have Velen come and try and get the Argent Crusade to finally step in. Surely they should be pissed off that the dead are being raised. And in some cases like Andhoral, being brain washed straight away.

[Deleted]

Hey OP - want a human-based faction that is capable of having an interesting, forever unraveling plotline potential? Try humans of Divinity's Reach - you'll have your appetites satisfied.

Oh. . . you want that to happen in WoW. . .
No way in hell - Blizzard failed to shape the Alliance into anything with potential similar to that of Horde back in the days of WoW Vanilla - everything we are dealing with NOW results from WoW's point zero Alliance being dull and generic.
Also, if the devs happen to see their preffered voice of reason in the 'Butthurt Alliance fanboys can CHOOSE to have fun with the shit they are sifting through!'-tier yadda-yadda [keep in mind that the first official statement regarding controversy of last Blizzcon effectively boiled down to "some people have chosen to feel offended"], then it is a safe bet that the upcoming seasons of content release will greet Alliance players with even more "be happy with what you received, ungrateful simpletons!" recommendations.

[dlouhys]

The difference is, like a lot of times in WoW, Arthas was an Alliance WARCRAFT hero, Garrosh was a horde WORLD OF WARCRAFT hero. If you only play World of Warcraft then you have no affiliation or in game link to Arthas at all

Most Alliance lore is either depicted pre-WoW or in a novel or lazily explained or hinted via quest texts.

Actually both were playable heroes in WC3 and having played both horde and alliance much of the time since release I'm pretty sure both were largely shelved for a number of years. If anything, ICC made me want to go back and break out TFT more than usual.

As far as quest texts, much of the community bitched and complained for a long time that loading/reading quest texts got in the way and just slowed people down. So without quest texts how do you propose they work people into the game?

[gcsmith]

Actually both were playable heroes in WC3 and having played both horde and alliance much of the time since release I'm pretty sure both were largely shelved for a number of years. If anything, ICC made me want to go back and break out TFT more than usual.

As far as quest texts, much of the community bitched and complained for a long time that loading/reading quest texts got in the way and just slowed people down. So without quest texts how do you propose they work people into the game?

As far as I'm aware, Garrosh wasn't in WC3, you may be thinking of his Father, Grom Hellscream.

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Actually both were playable heroes in WC3 and having played both horde and alliance much of the time since release I'm pretty sure both were largely shelved for a number of years. If anything, ICC made me want to go back and break out TFT more than usual.

As far as quest texts, much of the community bitched and complained for a long time that loading/reading quest texts got in the way and just slowed people down. So without quest texts how do you propose they work people into the game?

Also, because some people are lazy to read quests, those people also wouldn't care about lore, so those people can't complain they don't understand new characters.

[wych]

Actually both were playable heroes in WC3 and having played both horde and alliance much of the time since release I'm pretty sure both were largely shelved for a number of years. If anything, ICC made me want to go back and break out TFT more than usual.

As far as quest texts, much of the community bitched and complained for a long time that loading/reading quest texts got in the way and just slowed people down. So without quest texts how do you propose they work people into the game?

Garrosh was not in WC3.

You're missing the point i'm making.

I am saying Alliance players who didn't play WC3 have no history of Arthas as an Alliance hero, whereas Horde players have grown to know and care about Garrosh since TBC.

How about telling the story through gameplay and cinematics rather than lazily implying it and not showing it in game.

I don't have any issue with quest texts.

[frumper]

When you did the culling of stratholme did you not help Prince Arthas do it?

And I honestly could care less about Garrosh, this whole expansion has felt meh as far as epic story telling, and I play Horde. Cata was lack luster as well. I wanted to fight Illidan and LK when I saw the trailer to those expansions. I know Garrosh has been "building up" as we've gone through MoP, but it hasnt been the same.

[dlouhys]

Garrosh was not in WC3.

You're missing the point i'm making.

I am saying Alliance players who didn't play WC3 have no history of Arthas as an Alliance hero, whereas Horde players have grown to know and care about Garrosh since TBC.

How about telling the story through gameplay and cinematics rather than lazily implying it and not showing it in game.

I don't have any issue with quest texts.

Derp you're right. But the fact that I still confuse Grom with Garrosh should give you the kind of idea that Blizzard put into the horde development in game. Not sure about post-cata but Alliance had some really great quest chains that were never finished....which in a number of cases were better than the finished quests Horde had for a long time.

[Aleksej89]

It is true most of horde's story is implemented in the game, while the alliance story exists in books and "implied" it exists in game.

For example, draenei took control of their entire isles by now and even gilneans got a lot of their homes back (as far as i remember), and now (after 5.4) horde probably loses the entire ashenvale - but NOTHING will be displayed in the game.

But when the horde heavily expands during cataclysm or the post 5.4 event with the new warchief and rebuilt orgrimmar - all of that will be displayed in wow, as GCrawler said.

[wych]

When you did the culling of stratholme did you not help Prince Arthas do it?

And I honestly could care less about Garrosh, this whole expansion has felt meh as far as epic story telling, and I play Horde. Cata was lack luster as well. I wanted to fight Illidan and LK when I saw the trailer to those expansions. I know Garrosh has been "building up" as we've gone through MoP, but it hasnt been the same.

A very debatable point, depending on your viewpoint Arthas is or isn't an Alliance hero at this point, and it's a random mid level 5 man dungeon that both sides can do.

Garrosh is a major horde character since TBC

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Derp you're right. But the fact that I still confuse Grom with Garrosh should give you the kind of idea that Blizzard put into the horde development in game. Not sure about post-cata but Alliance had some really great quest chains that were never finished....which in a number of cases were better than the finished quests Horde had for a long time.

Garrosh is probably one of the most developed characters since TBC, he has had spotlight after spotlight starting in TBC.

He's had more screen time than any Alliance leader.

Vanilla was in Alliance's favour i'll agree, but the new 1-60 is far more interesting as a Horde player, and Cata and MoP, IMO, has had more interesting storylines and much more focus than the Alliance.

"we got screwed over once so you should" is not an approach Blizzard should be taking, it feels like it's constantly Horde and Alliance arguing over who should get a good storyline when it's Blizzard who should be writing both a good storyline.

[dlouhys]

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Also, because some people are lazy to read quests, those people also wouldn't care about lore, so those people can't complain they don't understand new characters.

It's not "some" people. It was a very resounding complaint from the player base and it was in response to the "lazily worded quest texts". I personally liked the game informing you of what was going on around from quests and village chatter. I think it's rather stupid that I would have to check forums and fansites to learn about the story of the game I'm playing but the player base as a whole told Blizz this was just something that got in they way.

[wych]

It is true most of horde's story is implemented in the game, while the alliance story exists in books and "implied" it exists in game.

For example, draenei took control of their entire isles by now and even gilneans got a lot of their homes back (as far as i remember), and now (after 5.4) horde probably loses the entire ashenvale - but NOTHING will be displayed in the game.

But when the horde heavily expands during cataclysm or the post 5.4 event with the new warchief and rebuilt orgrimmar - all of that will be displayed in wow, as GCrawler said.

Yep this is the point I was trying to make but expressed better than I could. Listen to this man.

[Harmzuay]

I think these are all good ideas. Stromgarde and Kul' Tiras could also make interesting Alliance content. Also the big one we have been waiting for: lets send a bloody rescue mission after Turalyon and Alleria.

I can't see these characters being Alliance affiliated, definitely not Alleria. They'll make one or both of them Neutral like every other meaningful Alliance lore character. One of her sisters is Horde and Lor'themar is now Horde, she can't just come home to the Alliance. They've messed up every character that could've been the Alliance badass.

[Matt0193]

stop pointing fingers at Blizzard and start to point at yourselves. Horde seem to be way more easy to develop because most of our players enjoy ANYTHING that is thrown at us.

You do realise that for the last 2 expansions just about everything that you've had thrown to you has been almost entirely for you?

OT: You could easily write up a gripping story and keep it running over the course of a few expansions. Quite easy to strip it down and base each expansion on a different faction if you wanted to as well.

Humans:
- Varian's development and High King trials (Still not in-game), orginally this line was intended to prove Varian in the eyes of the other faction leaders and to show that he was far more than capable to lead the Alliance against the Horde.
- Turalyon and Alleria found and begin training forces in preparation for the war against the Legion.
- Anduin's development and eventual leadership against the Legion (As foretold by Velen) can be fleshed out. Anduin is now a student of Turaylon and Velen, learning how to temper his compassion with resolve. He also becomes mentored by heroes such as Jarod Shadowsong, High Commander Halford Wyrmbane and other accomplished battlefield Generals in the Art of Warfare.
- Recovery of Stromgarde, the cradle of Humanity. Stromgarde is the ancestral home of the Humans, the first Kingdom of Humans originally called Stromgarde it's home. This could be a step for Varian to prove to the other Leaders that he is capable of being High King and Supreme Commander of the Alliance Forces by showing that he honors his heritage and the legacy of his people.
- Development between the Kirin Tor, Highborne and Draenei Mages. The Kirin Tor have always been shown to be studious magic users, often practicing anything new they uncovered as long as it fell under the restrictions they had. The Kirin Tor were also taught by the magisters of the High Elves, Highborne who were exiled from Kalimdor in the wake of the Kal'dorei victory over Queen Azshara's Highborne forces. The Kirin Tor can begin to learn the foundations of Azerothian magic by learning what the Highborne know as well as learning what the Draenei magi know. While not as prolific as the Highborne or the High Elves, the Draenei are among the most powerful magic wielding races in the known universe; powerful enough to have attracted even Sargeras' attention as he sought them out to become one of the founding races of the Burning Legion.
- Karazahn would be reclaimed by the Kirin Tor and the grand libraries of the Last Guardian further increase the understanding of Magic for the races of the Alliance.
- Kul Tiras brought back into the Alliance after a fleet is dispatched to acertain the status of the Kingdom following the loss of contact from before the loss of Admiral Daelin Proudmoore.

Just to name a few for the Humans without having to write out the Horde by taking places such as Lordareon and stuff.

- Dwarves have their ancestry to further discover, as there are likely to be other facilities like Uldaman and Ulduar.
- The Wildhammer do not have a claim to the throne of Ironforge, the Bronzebeard line has it's claim through Muradin and to a point, Moira Thaurissian. The Dark Irons have their claim through Moira and her infant child. The Wildhammer need a claim to the Throne to maintain their holding within Ironforge, lest another the War of the Three Hammers repeat itself.
- What new place will Brann find next? We have not seen Harrison Jones in Pandaria and those two have an interesting connection.
- To further Brann's role, Lorewalker Cho would likely enjoy working alongside the Explorer's League and the Lorewalkers would have a further role to play beyond that of just Pandaria.
- Brann had previously been in contact with the Nerubians who weren't brought back into undeath, we could see an expansion based on them and their interactions with the Alliance.

Dwarven lore is somewhat limited, as they've already expanded on everything that's previously been written just about. The main area for Dwarven lore and how it can be expanded would largely hinge on what they're discovering and how things pan out.

- The Gnomes retake Gnomeragan and proceed to create ever more powerful gadgets and devices.
- Following on from the Gnomes discovering that they were originally Mechagnomes, some of the Gnomish people have sought to try and bring Mechagnomes into the Gnomish society, as well as their abundance of titanic knowledge and engineering prowess.

Gnomes are even more limited than the Dwarves, but that's expected as they were a comic relief race to begin with.

I'll edit in the rest tomorrow, but I need some sleep. While some Alliance races have little you can expand on, it's not as if it's the same for the Horde. Beyond the Tauren establishing links between the Yaungol, Taunka and themselves; what else can they do? Make peace with the Grimtotem? Unlikely. Same for the Trolls; with Zandalar against them seemingly, what can the Darkspear and the two lesser tribes really do? Their established lore is depleted, same as the Dwarves but unlike the Dwarves they don't have a fallback in the form of titanic installations to explore.

[dlouhys]

"we got screwed over once so you should" is not an approach Blizzard should be taking, it feels like it's constantly Horde and Alliance arguing over who should get a good storyline when it's Blizzard who should be writing both a good storyline.

No one is making the argument that if A got screwed B should get screwed. People are merely pointing out that it hasn't always been horde centric and a number of people are sick of hearing the same story over and over again while people skip big chunks of what is/has been part of the Warcraft universe.

BRD/BRS was awesome, huge, told a ton about WoW and was pure dwarf. People relentlessly bitched and moaned that it was big and reading things was annoying so Blizz moved away from that model. You're bitching at Blizz when your beef is with your fellow player base.