Why I likely won't return to the game...

[Zer00z]

So, I'm going to keep this short and sweet and explain why I likely won't continue playing the game when my sub runs out.

I played vanilla on a warrior, TBC on a mage and rogue, WOTLK on a mage and rogue, and didn't play any of cata. I resubbed and played for 2 months or so pretty casually, leveling my druid/mage/warlock/hunter up to 90 and working on professions and such.

• Classes no longer feel special or have signature abilities. Sure, warlocks have green fire and druids shapeshift but everyone seems to have a VERY similar counter or cooldown to one another.
• The game is overwhelming to keep up to date with (both information and gear) compared to other non MMO / possibly mmo PvP centric games. Truly "learning" a class requires playing it at max level, with gear changing, patches having drastic remakes of classes far more often than I remember, etc it just isn't possible without dumping huge amounts of time
• There are NO counters or balances in the game. Everything is generally similar in terms of ability, utility, output, etc (See: Homogenization). Previously mages countered melee, warlocks countered mages, rogues countered clothies, etc. It was just accepted and created a draw for a player towards a specific class.
• HOMOGENIZATION: EVERY class offers EVERYTHING and does EVERYTHING. It's annoying, it's stupid. All of the classes at this point (aside from the healer/tank/dps spec differences) are very similar and there isn't anything really exciting or interesting to draw me in to a specific class

But, ignoring all of that, this by far gets me the most (After playing a week or so on the PTR with equal gear..)

Cheesing in this game is absolutely ridiculous now. BM hunters kill in an instant, Ret paladins kill in an instant, Destro kills in an instant. They all seem to offer NOTHING for PvP outside of a CD blowing cheese that (a good majority of the time) can negate any cooldowns or counters the opposite class has. With my rogue, moreso than ever, I feel that I am completely screwed if one of these specs catches me without full defensives. They can cheese anyone they'd like as long as cooldowns are up 100-0 in seconds, usually in a stun or CC.

Even my frost mage feels that way. Previously a chaosbolt/conflag from a destro, BM wrath, or mage shatter rotation was downright scary. It definitely set people back and you avoided it at your best... but it didn't flat out global (or near global) people. Now they do. Equal gear, equal playing field, and the cooldowns and combos certain classes can blow up with are freaking nuts.

It appears that PvP is at its most imbalanced in terms of stupid burst and burst setups. No longer do duels or arenas play like chess matches with counters, reactions, and offensives. They're just pure burst battles to see who can cheese who the fastest. It's pretty damn stupid.

So, between overall homogenization. Not being able to pick a class (largely related to homogenization) and absolutely out of control burst I'm seriously rethinking picking WoW back up.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

I think we need to just have one thread dedicated for all of the people who feel the urge to make a thread when they quit.

[MetroidHunter]

Oh it's one of these threads. I'll show myself out...

Infracted

[Vongimi]

PvP is in a very sorry state right now, I would not suggest picking it back up right now for PvP (PvE has never been better imo, but its still just PvE heh). Feedback like this though is a good agent of change. No mindless ranting, but an actual argument.

[Zer00z]

I think we need to just have one thread dedicated for all of the people who feel the urge to make a thread when they quit.

Except I figured I'd post because I'm returning from the game and haven't seen half of WOTLK, any of Cata, or the first half of MOP. I offer a unique perspective as to why the older players are gone and today's player is very much different than the players of old.

The cheesing and homogenization I posted about isn't infuriating or rage inducing. It's just depressing. It makes me realize why WoW (which may not be DEAD, yet) is hemorrhaging subscribers in percentages and numbers other MMOs couldn't imagine.

[Kylecat15]

Yeah can we just get one big thread? It seems everyone makes a new thread for on this daily.

[Dequanacus]

Cool10char

- - - Updated - - -

I offer a unique perspective.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Infracted

[Reinholder]

I think we need to just have one thread dedicated for all of the people who feel the urge to make a thread when they quit.

File them straight to the trash? All the op did is make me crave some cheese and maybe some crackers. But mostly cheese.

Infracted

[jbombard]

I agree with some of that. The removal of the talent tree was a terrible decision.

Really though I was planning on coming back for 5.4 but I don't see that happening with all the double dip action Blizzard has been pulling lately. I was never cool with the pet/mount store but now they are just taking it too far for me. Also not fond of them killing off dungeons, and the no catch up mechanism. I used to love alting, and MoP just killed that for me. Incidentally I also used to love collecting pets and mounts, but the store and pet battles killed those for me as well.

[Zer00z]

More than anything I guess it just doesn't play like the chess match it used to. PvP overall seems far more cooldown centric and burst focused than I remember. Before you tied things together, took opportunities from other classes mistakes, and thought about how a fight would go as it happened. While some of this still exists (like popping a defensive / trinket at the correct time) it doesn't feel NEARLY as tactic/skill/reaction focused. It seems far more comp/FoTM (tying in with comp)/burst focused.

I could live with the homogenization, equaling the playingfield and stuff if there wasn't so much globaling and burst going on. After watching a few Cata videos I get the impression it was the same then, too.

The rest of the game? I can live with that.

[Hand Banana]

The game is overwhelming to keep up to date with (both information and gear) compared to other non MMO / possibly mmo PvP centric games. Truly "learning" a class requires playing it at max level, with gear changing, patches having drastic remakes of classes far more often than I remember, etc it just isn't possible without dumping huge amounts of time.

HOMOGENIZATION: EVERY class offers EVERYTHING and does EVERYTHING. It's annoying, it's stupid. All of the classes at this point (aside from the healer/tank/dps spec differences) are very similar and there isn't anything really exciting or interesting to draw me in to a specific class.

So everyone does everything and everyone is the same yet its too hard to keep up with? You are contradicting yourself. Either its too hard or too complex for you or its not complex enough, make up your mind.

The way the classes are set up is fine; everything just needs a numbers tweak. Damage, healing, and mana regen need to be cut in half; everything is too bursty, both healing and damage. Make mana matter, make it difficult for healers to keep up but at the same time make it difficult to impossible to kill someone in 3 seconds like what happens now. The setup and abilities of the classes I am fine with. There is some homogenization but some is fine since it gives classes ability to do more things. You said you liked it when a mage countered a warrior every time and stuff like that, well that blows I would rather my warrior have a chance against everything. Their are still counters to everyone (except BM hunters, but they are another level of stupid right now), but now skill matters more imo.

[Zer00z]

So everyone does everything and everyone is the same yet its too hard to keep up with? You are contradicting yourself. Either its too hard or too complex for you or its not complex enough, make up your mind.

The way the classes are set up is fine; everything just needs a numbers tweak. Damage, healing, and mana regen need to be cut in half; everything is too bursty, both healing and damage. Make mana matter, make it difficult for healers to keep up but at the same time make it difficult to impossible to kill someone in 3 seconds like what happens now. The setup and abilities of the classes I am fine with. There is some homogenization but some is fine since it gives classes ability to do more things. You said you liked it when a mage countered a warrior every time and stuff like that, well that blows I would rather my warrior have a chance against everything. Their are still counters to everyone (except BM hunters, but they are another level of stupid right now), but now skill matters more imo.

With the addition of a disclaimer I might've avoided your post. Yes, everyone appears to do everything... With their own specific twist. Core gameplay though? Same outcome. My druid has a disengage like my hunter, oh and my mage has a blink. My warlock? Demo has it too. Three of the four (four of the four if you count balance) has a blanket silence. They all have multiple stuns or fears to set up said cheesing or burst, They all have a MAJOR damage avoidance or reduction.

Is Ice block the same as deterrence? Of course not! But they are very, very similar. That isn't so much why I'm disappointed as much as why I haven't clung to a class. I can also see how it is made very easy to follow FOT(patch) nerfs or buffs via alts because no longer does X class completely counter Y and you can't stand that, or A can't do what B can.

Back in vanilla, TBC, and (for a lesser part) WOTLK I played one character with a moderately under geared alt and that was UNCOMMON. People rerolled but they STUCK to that new class (or went back to their original) and didn't just get stuck in a constant state of bouncing like a pinball machine. Now though? I can see how very easy it is to constantly switch and follow the patches.

[shamantime]

So, I'm going to keep this short and sweet and explain why I likely won't continue playing the game when my sub runs out.

I played vanilla on a warrior, TBC on a mage and rogue, WOTLK on a mage and rogue, and didn't play any of cata. I resubbed and played for 2 months or so pretty casually, leveling my druid/mage/warlock/hunter up to 90 and working on professions and such.

• Classes no longer feel special or have signature abilities. Sure, warlocks have green fire and druids shapeshift but everyone seems to have a VERY similar counter or cooldown to one another.
• The game is overwhelming to keep up to date with (both information and gear) compared to other non MMO / possibly mmo PvP centric games. Truly "learning" a class requires playing it at max level, with gear changing, patches having drastic remakes of classes far more often than I remember, etc it just isn't possible without dumping huge amounts of time
• There are NO counters or balances in the game. Everything is generally similar in terms of ability, utility, output, etc (See: Homogenization). Previously mages countered melee, warlocks countered mages, rogues countered clothies, etc. It was just accepted and created a draw for a player towards a specific class.
• HOMOGENIZATION: EVERY class offers EVERYTHING and does EVERYTHING. It's annoying, it's stupid. All of the classes at this point (aside from the healer/tank/dps spec differences) are very similar and there isn't anything really exciting or interesting to draw me in to a specific class

But, ignoring all of that, this by far gets me the most (After playing a week or so on the PTR with equal gear..)

Cheesing in this game is absolutely ridiculous now. BM hunters kill in an instant, Ret paladins kill in an instant, Destro kills in an instant. They all seem to offer NOTHING for PvP outside of a CD blowing cheese that (a good majority of the time) can negate any cooldowns or counters the opposite class has. With my rogue, moreso than ever, I feel that I am completely screwed if one of these specs catches me without full defensives. They can cheese anyone they'd like as long as cooldowns are up 100-0 in seconds, usually in a stun or CC.

Even my frost mage feels that way. Previously a chaosbolt/conflag from a destro, BM wrath, or mage shatter rotation was downright scary. It definitely set people back and you avoided it at your best... but it didn't flat out global (or near global) people. Now they do. Equal gear, equal playing field, and the cooldowns and combos certain classes can blow up with are freaking nuts.

It appears that PvP is at its most imbalanced in terms of stupid burst and burst setups. No longer do duels or arenas play like chess matches with counters, reactions, and offensives. They're just pure burst battles to see who can cheese who the fastest. It's pretty damn stupid.

So, between overall homogenization. Not being able to pick a class (largely related to homogenization) and absolutely out of control burst I'm seriously rethinking picking WoW back up.

I'm going to make a thread called "Why I don't care that you won't return to the game."

[Zer00z]

I'm going to make a thread called "Why I don't care that you won't return to the game."

have fun

[Tomservo]

Infracted

[Reinholder]

PvP overall seems far more cooldown centric and burst focused than I remember.

You may be looking back on the past with rose colored glasses. You played rogue in TBC right? PvP has been comp/FoTM/burst focused for as long as I can recall personally.

The removal of the talent tree was a terrible decision.

I don't necessarily agree with that. A majority of players just ran with the stock cookie cutter setup that was identified as 'the best'. A majority will always gravitate toward what is identified as being the best. The old talent trees were bigger but generally it was pretty obvious where you should stick your points for max. return. The larger talent trees gave the illusion of choice, but that was about it.

[Rucati]

So basically you're complaining that all classes are the same (which they aren't, at all) but then when classes don't have the skills you hear everybody complaining.

They're removing the Hunter blanket silence, and for weeks we had like 10 threads a day of Hunters saying how they're going to be useless without a silence. All classes need all types of skills for balance to exist. If you give only 1 class a Silence then that class will be needed in every arena team because it'll be so strong. There's a reason the classes all have a lot of similar abilities.

Still though, the classes are absurdly different and I'll never understand why people say they're all the same. Let me know how your melee Mage or caster Warrior work out, oh right, they won't, because the classes are *nothing* like each other.

[Mormolyce]

• Classes no longer feel special or have signature abilities. Sure, warlocks have green fire and druids shapeshift but everyone seems to have a VERY similar counter or cooldown to one another.
• HOMOGENIZATION: EVERY class offers EVERYTHING and does EVERYTHING. It's annoying, it's stupid. All of the classes at this point (aside from the healer/tank/dps spec differences) are very similar and there isn't anything really exciting or interesting to draw me in to a specific class

Agree to disagree.

• The game is overwhelming to keep up to date with (both information and gear) compared to other non MMO / possibly mmo PvP centric games. Truly "learning" a class requires playing it at max level, with gear changing, patches having drastic remakes of classes far more often than I remember, etc it just isn't possible without dumping huge amounts of time

That's fair enough really, it's bad enough for PVE let alone PVP. I think both need to be simplified, especially the latter.

• There are NO counters or balances in the game. Everything is generally similar in terms of ability, utility, output, etc (See: Homogenization). Previously mages countered melee, warlocks countered mages, rogues countered clothies, etc. It was just accepted and created a draw for a player towards a specific class.

See, I totally disagree with the entire concept here. If mages countered melee that would be a major flaw in PVP balance. Counters make no sense in a game like WoW. If I entered arena and saw what the other team had, and then got to choose both my class and my partner's, then maybe counters would make sense. You've levelled and geared up a Rogue for PVP and you enter Arena and happen to face a Mage? Too bad so sad, game gives him a massive advantage so you lose. How is that good for PVP? PVP should be about how you play, not what class the queue has randomly put you up against.

My honest read? You played for a long time and got used to the way it used to be. Which was broken. Now that it's fixed you don't like it anymore. Fair enough, but personally I think the game is much better for it.

[Zer00z]

You may be looking back on the past with rose colored glasses. You played rogue in TBC right? PvP has been comp/FoTM/burst focused for as long as I can recall personally.

When was the last time someone ran out of mana in an arena? Remember how hunter's used to drain mana and hunter/druid had a good spat. Warlocks had their drain and priests (they might still? I don't play priest) had manaburn. I mean, certain things still bursted... But I feeling the singular cooldown was far less important. It was more about chaining things together or wearing a team down.

Off the top of my head there were SOME zerg/burst comps floating around, Like mage/rogue and BM Hunter/Ret. But, still, I seem to remember a bit more focus on CC and countering the other player instead of "OMGWTF BURST THROUGH CDS AND HEALING" the game appears to have now.

[Zer00z]

Because 80% of people were not the cookie cutter build and the other 20% were made fun of. On a side note what awsome specs were you coming up with taht the rest of us were not using? Seriously can anyone tell me some random off the wall build that even came close to the cookie cutter specs?

Well, there WAS world PvP so people came up with some pretty off the wall specs. Survival hunter was one of the few I remember (Where most played BM/MM). Any mage but frost was another. Spriest was a bit unique and had some choices, though not many. Druid had plain resto, balance, and that resto/balance hybrid that never went OOM healing and had good DPS support. Rogue had a lot of options. You had HARP, That shadowstep/cold blood/prep Sub build that focused on big crit eviscerates. Mutilate had its thing going on (though from what I remember it wasn't as popular). Combat had its thing. Etc, etc. I could name a few other rogue specs but you get the point. I'm sure every class had things like this, though I only remember rogue because it was what I focused on.

I mean, damn, remember when WARRIOR WEAPONS even made a difference? Mace stun was intense but sword paired well with windfury totem (back when it gave you the windfury proc shamans had today).