Would it upset you if LFR went away? Why or why not?

[The Small Hours]

LFR is great for getting some valor points, the only problem with lfr is that the bosses have to much hp. They should reduce the boss hp in lfr by 50%

[Raelbo]

First, I don't think I am "right" at all. I've never made right/wrong statements

Actually you pretty much have. You started off with the assumption that LFR is responsible for declining subs. You then use that assumption to "prove" itself. I suggested that you may have the causality wrong. Your response:

I don't have casuality mixed up, because I am seeing it on my server.

I read that as simply: I am right because I can see I am right.

When pressed on the issue, you continue with this gem:

What qualifies me to understand the relationship? The same thing that doesn't make my statement not a theory....I'm not as much making an argument as an observation.

You are unequivocally stating that your opinion is fact. If you take away the assumption that LFR is killing guilds and causing people unsub (and I have offered an alternative equally plausible explanation - namely that LFR is an attempt to reduce the number of sub losses which are being driven by other causes) then you have no argument. It all hinges on that assumption which you have done nothing to prove except say in various roundabout ways that this is what you observed. What you have observed is a correlation. You have assumed the causality.

people I've talked to leave the game because they are directly (seen all content, bored argument) or indirectly (people leave the game because they saw everything, bored, therefore the server dries out which makes it less fun to play) influenced by LFR raids. You can't even argue with me about it, so why pursue that?

And here it is. The crux of this argument. Your underlying assumption which you believe is unassailable, when in fact it is extremely fragile. I CAN argue with you about why people are leaving, because the reason you are claiming makes very little sense.

Why would any heroic raider stop raiding because of LFR? What is it about LFR that makes a heroic raider stop enjoying his heroic raiding experience? To all intents and purposes, there is very little reason for any heroic raider to spend any significant amount of time (if any) doing LFR. So why should it drive them away?

Possible explanations I have seen touted here before (and I'll start with your example):

1) I saw all the content through LFR. Now I am bored

Do you really think the primary motivation of most heroic raiders is to see content?!? While I can accept that seeing content is a small part of the motivation, I would really have thought that progression - the challenge as it were - is the primary driver for most real raiders. Even the gear you get from raiding is about enabling your team to overcome tougher challenges. If someone isn't interested in those challenges, and stops raiding as a result that isn't the fault of LFR.

2) Raiding the latest instance is no longer an exclusive experience. Because other people are able to see the raid in LFR mode, I no longer enjoy heroic mode. Therefore it's LFR's fault.

I'll be blunt. This is not LFR's fault. The people using this argument have serious issues they need to work through.

3) I can raid LFR, so I don't need to raid normal/heroic modes anymore. LFR made me quit normal/heroics

No. You quit normal/heroic because the LFR experience suits you better. If that's the case, don't blame LFR, blame the normal/heroic experience.

4) I am burned out from doing LFR

Yup, that 40 hour progression schedule wiping on difficult bosses had noooothing to do with it at all...

you can't really come up to me and say "well, you're wrong!"

I never did that to you. You did that to me. I presented our arguments as having equal logical/anecdotal merit.

Care to prove me by giving me an interview of every person ever leaving the game? Otherwise it's just baiting me into an emotional response.

No I don't care to do so. You and I have both heard from many people why they leave the game. Personally I think many people who leave the game don't even understand the exact reasons themselves. All I can do is analyse statements and try to figure out if they are consistent, and if not, where the problem lies. Everyone leaves the game for a reason, and it is possible to figure those reasons out in a way that makes sense.

Insulting my intelligence won't get you any further, either.

Actually my initial line of argument I assumed we were of equal intelligence and I tried to engage you with reason, to find a middle ground where we could both agree. You responded, as I showed above, with an attitude of "My anecdotal evidence, 7 years of experience etc etc trumps yours". So actually it was you who insulted my intelligence (although I am prepared to accept you may not have realised you were doing so).

And lastly, yes, I have read blue responses. But they are not the gospel. Your reasoning is based on the fact that blues are never wrong and it's the only gospel we can argue by.

Nope. Not at all. I just value the information I gain from reading blue posts a lot more than I do from random people. FYI I also have a brother who worked for 5 years at Blizzard. I happen to value his insight quite highly too. I don't know what it is with the internet generation of today, but why everyone assumes all opinions are equal is beyond me. The value of expert opinion has been far too devalued by the masses and it's sad. It also results in a lot of ignorance and misinformation. But that's another discussion.

Well, chum, I've been saying from the first posts on that I think Blizzard is wrong. So I'm not likely to take your blue posts into credit, am I? Why even mention them to me?

That's cool. And you're entitled to think that. But accept that in all probability you are then probably mistaken. Yes there are times when the experts get it wrong and the random internet guy gets it right, but really, those are few and far between, and this particular case, I have seen nothing in your argument that makes me think you are right.

I think Blizzard is milking the shit out of WoW and couldn't care less about what's good for the game. Heck, for all I know they might just bleed the game dry because eventually they want us to jump ship to Titan anyway. Who's to say whatever they say in public is the truth?

While you might be correct, it seems to me very unlikely that this is the case.

"You will never defeat Arthas" - "We will never introduce additional difficulty modes for content" - "bring the player, not the class"

Do you really want me to start really thinking about how many posts they made that were just wrong or outright lies (or at least so dumb that they should've known they're untrue)?

Maybe you need to evaluate those comments in the context in which they were made. The game has changed. The people who play the game have changed. Something that might have seemed unthinkable 8 years ago could be viewed in a completely different light today.

The fact the Blizzard are prepared to change their stance when it is shown that their previous thinking has become outmoded is a positive trait, not something which should be seen as a negative. I would also note that, having learned from their "mistakes" in the past, blues are a lot more cautious about making categorical statements like the ones you "quoted" above. For example, they would be unlikely to say "You will never defeat Arthas". They'd be for more prone to saying "At this stage we don't envisage players defeating Arthas".

A lie is only a lie if the one telling it doesn't believe it.

[Slant]

Slant, this guy summed this up really good. If you cant comprehend it, you just lack common sense.

Ok, so obviously I am lacking common sense, everything I notice is wrong, I make up players leaving faster than ever since the introduction of LFR, because that is clearly just a coincidence... that's it? Great. I pull my hat off to you guys. You win, as I've said a billion times already. Hope you feel better. You haven't changed my opinion, but I hope you guys never expected that.

In fact, you should start an uprising, because you can't see Ra-Den. That's unfair, isn't it.

[Terahertz]

No, I wouldn't. LFR drained the one and only incentive I had to start and continue raiding; see raiding content. Now it just doesn't feel the same anymore and there's no need to do normal raiding anymore except for gear because there's LFR.

LFR spoiled people.

[Deleted]

No, I wouldn't. LFR drained the one and only incentive I had to start and continue raiding; see raiding content. Now it just doesn't feel the same anymore and there's no need to do normal raiding anymore except for gear because there's LFR.

LFR spoiled people.

So you still got to see the content, just via LFR instead of normal mode, so in essence nothing has changed for you.

I would also argue that raiding normal or heroic modes just for gear is a very poor reason to be raiding. Rather people should be raiding normal modes for the benefit of being part of a social team overcoming a moderate challenge, or should be raiding heroic mode because they enjoy trying to overcome extremely challenging content. Raiding is about teamwork and challenge, not about gear.

[Raelbo]

But I am against killing the social aspect of this game.

I think just about everyone is against killing the social aspect of the game. Sadly this is not something I think Blizzard have a lot of control over. It's the players who create, or kill, the social aspect of the game.

Back in the day, you could raid or not. Two options.

Yes, indeed, back in the day, things were simpler. The players evolved though. So the game had to evolve. I believe that if things were as they were back in the day, you and I would not be discussing this, because WoW would have died a long time ago.

Now, forward a bit and you'll see Wrath... 10m normal/heroic, 25m normal/heroic. Which do you pick, since you only have limited free time if you've got a job/college? Already the once common group of raiders is splitting up, making each target group a quarter of what it was

I don't think this was a great model at all. What it was, was a natural progression improving upon what came before it. What they got right with this model is that they identified the need for varying difficulty levels - normal vs heroic (and hardmodes in Ulduar were the first attempt at this).

Again, I want to raise the issue of causality: Was it the different modes of raiding that split the players up? Or was the natural stratification of players into different groups, migrating according to skill level that created a demand for different difficulty settings? I would have thought the answer to be pretty obvious.

The unfortunate shortcoming of WotLK was that difficulty setting was tied to raid size - two things that really should be kept independent. This is something they recognised and rectified in Cata.

Forward a bit more to join us in our time. We now have 10m normal/heroic, 25m normal/heroic and LFR. Now we're five groups, again making each group a little tinier

Again, do you think that the raid modes offered pushed people into these groups? Or do you not think it a lot more likely that people were moving themselves into those groups based on their level of skill?

While I can see that having smaller groups leads to a more fractured society, I am highly doubtful that you can simply fix that by forcing them all into one big pool. I believe that a fractured community was inevitable, and the longer the game is around, the bigger the skill divide gets between the best of the best, and your average Joe.

The way I see it, the game has a choice: Either provide a variety of options for people, or expect a lot of those people who are too far away from the expected normal to simply quit because the game is either too demanding on their time, skill, patience etc, or too undemanding/boring/unchallenging.

Now, let's add Flexraid to that. We have already 5 exlusive sizes and LFR on top. What's next? Because Flexraid ain't gonna be enough.

I guess we'll see. What I will say is that right now normal raidmodes is too tough for a significant portion of the community that wants to participate in raiding.

Everytime you get concessions, I still hear people complaining.

In a game of millions of players you're always going to get some people who have to complain about something :P

And yes, even on MMO-C I've actually read a thread by a dude SERIOUSLY asking for heroic gear when he does his solo content.

Case in point. I wouldn't be worried about this sort of thing though. When someone's demands are unreasonable, they seldom get met.

I mean, when is it enough? Are you happy with LFR and Flexraids? Will that be it?

*shrugs* I think LFR fulfilled a lot of people's needs. I believe Flexraid will also fulfill a fairly urgent need for a significant number of players. But in a constantly evolving game with a constantly evolving playerbase, needs change. Only time will tell exactly where things head.

And all the time, people get split up into smaller subgroups, making the whole system bloated, ugly, complicated and removing more and more social aspects from the game.

As noted above, I don't think it's game splitting people up. People are going to naturally migrate to a zone where they feel most comfortable. If the game can make suitable content for those groups, then that will strengthen the social aspects, because people tend to work well together when they are chasing a common objective. The real social aspect of this game has always revolved around guilds, and as long as guilds remain viable, the social aspects will grow.

With Flexraids you don't even need to be mindful of your groupmates. If they piss you off, just kick them, it won't affect your raid much. And that is going to happen, and you'll have the shitstorms on MMO-C once that starts. If you thought progression raids were harsh, just wait until casuals have to fear no consequence for kicking people they don't like.

I am not sure I understand how Flexraid will be any different from how it works in pugs/guilds with normal modes currently? While it's true that Flex raidleaders won't have to necessarily replace someone they have just kicked (assuming the correct role balance still exists and your raid has more than 10 people in it still), it's not like LFR where you can kick as much as like and the system will do the work to keep the group viable. Raidleaders who are too liberal with kicking people will still have to go and find replacements, and will soon get a poor reputation on their servers.

Yes, kicking from a flex raid will be a bit easier than from a normal. But then again this could be a good thing because it will give pugs more incentive to behave acceptably.

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No, I wouldn't. LFR drained the one and only incentive I had to start and continue raiding; see raiding content.

If the only thing keeping you raiding normal mode was seeing content, how much fun were you having? If the only thing keeping you raiding normal was seeing content, then what have lost by doing LFR?

So basically, you are getting to do what you wanted to anyway, with less hassle, less stress and in less time.

I am not really sure I understand your complaint here.

[Slant]

Actually you pretty much have. You started off with the assumption that LFR is responsible for declining subs. You then use that assumption to "prove" itself. I suggested that you may have the causality wrong. Your response:

No, I started with the assumption that LFR is making this game more anti-social. Which you haven't successfully refuted. Stop telling me what I said when you get it wrong.

I read that as simply: I am right because I can see I am right.

Yes, you read what you want to read. Congrats.

You are unequivocally stating that your opinion is fact. If you take away the assumption that LFR is killing guilds and causing people unsub (and I have offered an alternative equally plausible explanation - namely that LFR is an attempt to reduce the number of sub losses which are being driven by other causes) then you have no argument. It all hinges on that assumption which you have done nothing to prove except say in various roundabout ways that this is what you observed. What you have observed is a correlation. You have assumed the causality.

You are construing your argument based on your misreading what I say, and now you're diving headon into petty little side arguments about semantics, ignoring the larger debate, trying to get me involved in a thousand different little arguments about who said what and your interpretations of that. Then you offer plausible explanations that I haven't even denied and use them to say that whatever I suggest is wrong. Because there are alternatives. And since you hang up your entire strategy on something you've clearly not understood in all these posts, you're unable to understand that you're not getting anywhere. You're talking to me as if you're arguing against the usual arrogant elitist raider. You're not.

And here it is. The crux of this argument. Your underlying assumption which you believe is unassailable, when in fact it is extremely fragile. I CAN argue with you about why people are leaving, because the reason you are claiming makes very little sense.

You can argue why people are leaving, you cannot argue about my observations why people are leaving. And since you still don't understand my underlying reasoning, I'd be really impressed if you were able to continue your reasoning from there. But again, we are diving into semantics and debate strategy bullshit rather than talking about the issue, aren't we?

Why would any heroic raider stop raiding because of LFR? What is it about LFR that makes a heroic raider stop enjoying his heroic raiding experience? To all intents and purposes, there is very little reason for any heroic raider to spend any significant amount of time (if any) doing LFR. So why should it drive them away?

Possible explanations I have seen touted here before (and I'll start with your example):

1) I saw all the content through LFR. Now I am bored

Do you really think the primary motivation of most heroic raiders is to see content?!? While I can accept that seeing content is a small part of the motivation, I would really have thought that progression - the challenge as it were - is the primary driver for most real raiders. Even the gear you get from raiding is about enabling your team to overcome tougher challenges. If someone isn't interested in those challenges, and stops raiding as a result that isn't the fault of LFR.

2) Raiding the latest instance is no longer an exclusive experience. Because other people are able to see the raid in LFR mode, I no longer enjoy heroic mode. Therefore it's LFR's fault.

I'll be blunt. This is not LFR's fault. The people using this argument have serious issues they need to work through.

3) I can raid LFR, so I don't need to raid normal/heroic modes anymore. LFR made me quit normal/heroics

No. You quit normal/heroic because the LFR experience suits you better. If that's the case, don't blame LFR, blame the normal/heroic experience.

4) I am burned out from doing LFR

Yup, that 40 hour progression schedule wiping on difficult bosses had noooothing to do with it at all...

Not only do you dig up any cliche about heroic raiding, you make up numbers out of thin air and ignore badzillions of other reasons, why people stop playing. Marriage, job, children, death, sickness, being deployed, going crazy, the moonphases and sunspots. But all that is not relevant to this topic. Relevant is if the sub losses due to the removal of LFR would increase or decrease. And I said before we would not see a difference in numbers. All we'd see is a different reason for quitting. Read my posts, before you start dissecting my views. Otherwise, you're just pissing me off.

I never did that to you. You did that to me. I presented our arguments as having equal logical/anecdotal merit.

For the past few posts you've been arguing for the sake of arguing. That is poor taste, and again only proper in a debate club where points are awarded for that shit. Your logical and anecdotal merits attack a perceived weak spot in my strategy that simply doesn't exist. And you're quite obviously only interested in dragging this on further and further with these dissections that prove nothing, because you're not even reading my posts beyond the sentence by sentence analysis, ignoring what I said in earlier posts except to dig up some quotes to dissect even further. If you're not able to grasp the bigger picture of what I'm telling here, you're not able to go toe to toe with me on this, because right now all you're showing is that you have too much time on your hand.

No I don't care to do so. You and I have both heard from many people why they leave the game. Personally I think many people who leave the game don't even understand the exact reasons themselves. All I can do is analyse statements and try to figure out if they are consistent, and if not, where the problem lies. Everyone leaves the game for a reason, and it is possible to figure those reasons out in a way that makes sense.

Yes, and that's all you do, analyse statements. You're not seeing the big picture, you don't take into account my motivation, my reasoning or anything else that goes beyond a post by post quote snipfest that enables you to attack each paragraph on its own, which is rather simple really, just like I'm doing right now, without ever saying anything about the topic, which I am doing right now.

Actually my initial line of argument I assumed we were of equal intelligence and I tried to engage you with reason, to find a middle ground where we could both agree. You responded, as I showed above, with an attitude of "My anecdotal evidence, 7 years of experience etc etc trumps yours". So actually it was you who insulted my intelligence (although I am prepared to accept you may not have realised you were doing so).

And again, my intelligence is insulted. Let me put this another way to you. You may have your views, your reasons for following your logic and all that. And here's the kicker, based on your experience, I would not be surprised if I agreed with you. But I don't share your experience. I have my own experience, that includes 8 years in this game, 7 of them organising groups, preparing raids, competing with other guilds and generally being very involved in the player base of this game. You're now sitting there, telling me that is all worth nothing, just because there is some obscure blue post saying "Players don't leave because of anything we did." or the rather elegant argument of "Your experience is wrong, therefore you're wrong, everyone else is having other views and you just don't get it" when in this very thread more than a couple of people have agreed with me and given you ample evidence that I am not alone in my way of thinking. So, yes my evidence is anecdotal, but it is exemplary of a lot of people that you aren't witnessing here, because they have left the game and can't defend our case. That is the nature of things.

So basically, you're coming up with your debate club training and telling me that for whatever strategical reasons you put out here, everything I and others have told you is irrelevant, because you believe... Blizzard? I'm sorry, actions speak louder than words. And in this case of a Blizzard employer of which I have only your assurance that he exists and nothing more, so how is that less anecdotal?

Nope. Not at all. I just value the information I gain from reading blue posts a lot more than I do from random people. FYI I also have a brother who worked for 5 years at Blizzard. I happen to value his insight quite highly too. I don't know what it is with the internet generation of today, but why everyone assumes all opinions are equal is beyond me. The value of expert opinion has been far too devalued by the masses and it's sad. It also results in a lot of ignorance and misinformation. But that's another discussion.

See above. Blue posts have repeatedly over the years shown that they backpeddal, either lie or unknowingly state false facts as truth, change game development strategy on a whim and have turned their own philosophies around more often than they released expansions. I don't care if your buddy was the founder of Blizzard, because I deem Blizzard as a company potentially devious. And that includes employees as well.

That's cool. And you're entitled to think that. But accept that in all probability you are then probably mistaken. Yes there are times when the experts get it wrong and the random internet guy gets it right, but really, those are few and far between, and this particular case, I have seen nothing in your argument that makes me think you are right.

In what probability? Where do you take that from? You're making up facts as truth as much as you claim me to do. And trust me, the stuff top tier raiders have written about this game are more to the point than any average Blizzard employee says. Because they have not the faintest clue what's out there. They prove it with every single PTR.

While you might be correct, it seems to me very unlikely that this is the case.

While you may be correct, it seems to me to be very unlikely that this is the case of being the case. Now what, stalemate? Sheesh.

Maybe you need to evaluate those comments in the context in which they were made. The game has changed. The people who play the game have changed. Something that might have seemed unthinkable 8 years ago could be viewed in a completely different light today.

Yes, perhaps you should read my posts properly before basing your arguments on a falsely perceived origin of my thinking. And the game does change, that is what scares the fuck out of people like me. But you can ignore the development as much as you like. Read the blue posts and be mollified by them if that's your preference. I can't change your mind about it. But going from 40m to 25m to 10m and now heroic scenarios for 3m. I mean that's hard to ignore where the shift of focus is going to. Of course a big chunk of game development goes into raid dungeon design. But telling me that 99% of it goes into heroic content is bullshit. They don't do content just for us. You had normal modes and heroic modes and nobody complained about that. I fucking love guilds being able to do normal mode content. I hate LFR because it's anti social. You haven't understood one bit of me or my argument. How dare you try to educate me about anything related to this game if you're not even able to understand where I'm coming from?

The fact the Blizzard are prepared to change their stance when it is shown that their previous thinking has become outmoded is a positive trait, not something which should be seen as a negative. I would also note that, having learned from their "mistakes" in the past, blues are a lot more cautious about making categorical statements like the ones you "quoted" above. For example, they would be unlikely to say "You will never defeat Arthas". They'd be for more prone to saying "At this stage we don't envisage players defeating Arthas".

A lie is only a lie if the one telling it doesn't believe it.

The fact that Blizzard change their stance when it's proven to be outmoded is a sign that they never thought long enough about their stance in the first place. The typical PTR again shows this. They implement something, badzillions of players tell them it's a mistake, they implement it in the game ignoring every feedback, the implementation blows up in their face in some manner and suddenly they fix it quickly, doing much hush hush and using the worst quick fix to do it, thus fucking up the game mechanics even more. How is that sensible development? Take a look at how Blizzard balances shit and then take a look at how Riot balances their game. You'll see a world of difference in smartness about small adjustments being used properly and creatively. Not the clunk clunk sledgehammer method Blizzard is employing half the time.

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I am not really sure I understand your complaint here.

That doesn't make his complaint less legit.

P.S.: Oh and... again, dissecting. That is very poor form, IMO. Perhaps my demonstration showed that. But I guess it didn't you'll just disect my disection and then we'll forever circle around in semantics. That's totally not going to drive any other party away from this thread, at all.

[Akka]

Oh honey, the amounts of times that I advertised for my warlock with her spelldamage, hitcappedness and origin of her gear... The amounts of times that I did the same on my shaman. The amounts of times that I did the same thing on my priest.

And.. I didn't know that I had any credibility to begin with? This is a silly forum. Everyone can claim anything they want to. Including you. And you do. Maybe you haven't seen what I've seen. I don't blame you.

It doesn't matter if you ask for the numbers that Blizz gives you, those that the players give you or those that a certain gearlevel (I'm wearing T5, guys! Look at me, I know my stuff!!!!!) imply, the outcome is the same. Whereas you get worked up all about ilvls, I'm telling you, that it was already there way back in the 'glorious' times of WoW. People just called it after an addon that I hadn't even installed, I don't even remember when it first came up. At some point, there was just this GSxxxx number in trades, and I always said "Hey, I have content clear, no idea what that gearscore thing is when you have that."
Or people referred to that number in terms of T. "My gear is from T4, with some T5, some badge-stuff." "My gear is a mix of different sources, equivalent to T5, come inspect me if you want details." Or you just went to be.imba.hu, typed in the name and server, and it would spit out info about missing hitcaps, wrong stat priority, talent point mess-ups, and everything else you wanted. Basically, it was a more enhanced version of what the armory is doing today.

People asked you questions about your gear, and they expected a level of gear that was usually (notice I said : usually, there has always been some idiots everywhere) logical compared to what you'd have to fight. They had to communicate at least a bit and most of the time you could make a good case for yourself even if the gear wasn't totally up to snuff - as player skill more much more important than ilvl.
From WotLK, the ease of clearing content and the shift from "progressing" to "collecting freeloot" meant that the requirements became more and more ridiculous, as convenience and lazyness kicked gameplay out.

You wanted to clear Kara in TBC ? People asked for good blues. You wanted to join a T5 raid ? T4 was enough to be accepted. If you were known as a good player or came from a good guild, you could even come in blue and manage to pull your weight.
Since WotLK, people simply set a GS treshold and don't bother about anything else. What's more, the treshold is often beyond idiotic : it's not uncommon to see people asking for a GS that is SUPERIOR to the gear actually obtainable in the instance targeted. They don't even seem to realize it, and people don't care.

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This has always been the most ludicrous suggestion from anyone against LFR. Why the hell would anyone want to do something week after week if there not getting anything from it.

I thought that the point of LFR was to "see content" ?

[lmaotsetung]

LFR was what brought me back to the game after I quit the 2nd week of Ulduar came out so if there is no LFR then I wouldn't subscribe.

[Raelbo]

P.S.: Oh and... again, dissecting. That is very poor form, IMO. Perhaps my demonstration showed that. But I guess it didn't you'll just disect my disection and then we'll forever circle around in semantics. That's totally not going to drive any other party away from this thread, at all.

I guess this says all that needs to be said on the topic. There is some stuff you have said with which I agree. Other stuff with which I disagree. And I'll leave it at that.

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I thought that the point of LFR was to "see content" ?

The point of LFR is to have fun.

[Deleted]

I voted No.

1. Its design, to let people raid on an easier difficulty and to quickly find other players by using the group finder system, is a dumb and lazy concept overall. It attracts the annoying part of the internet community.

2. It's a lootfest if you're lucky, and you barely have to do anything for it.

I always found WoW interesting to play because I had too put effort into becoming good. LFR alienates that feeling.

[Leothas]

I only use LFR in the start of a patch if I can get any upgrades for my main or off-spec.

But I feel that it's boring to walk trough the new instance so fast. I loved experiencing a new raid without it beeing a faceroll.

[Slant]

I guess this says all that needs to be said on the topic. There is some stuff you have said with which I agree. Other stuff with which I disagree. And I'll leave it at that.

Hey, at least we didn't totally turn it into a flamefest. That kind of an accomplishment on the internet, right?

[Akka]

The point of LFR is to have fun.

Epic fail then, considering LFR is about removing everything that actually make raids fun.

[Raelbo]

Epic fail then, considering LFR is about removing everything that actually make raids fun.

For you maybe. Not so for others. Not everyone is the same.

The measure of how successful LFR is has nothing to do with how one individual perceives it. It's about how many people like it. In fact, as long as a reasonable portion of the WoW population gets some degree of fun out of it, it can be regarded as a resounding success. The fact that a bunch of people hate it is irrelevant as long as they aren't forced into doing it.

[Kelimbror]

Epic fail then, considering LFR is about removing everything that actually make raids fun.

Everyone has opinions. LFR removed everything that made raids bad for me: scheduling, job mentality, and having to be fake social. Now I can do it on my own time and don't have to talk to anyone unless I feel like it.

[Osmeric]

Epic fail then, considering LFR is about removing everything that actually make raids fun.

And yet, most players prefer them to normal/heroic raids. Weird that most people spurn this "fun" for something that supposedly removed all this "fun", isn't it?

[Ronduwil]

No, I wouldn't. LFR drained the one and only incentive I had to start and continue raiding; see raiding content. Now it just doesn't feel the same anymore and there's no need to do normal raiding anymore except for gear because there's LFR.

This is like saying that normal dungeons killed incentives to run heroic dungeons. Why is it that heroic dungeons were doing just fine until Blizzard decided to quit putting them out? By your logic no one should have wanted to run them because they had all done the normal mode versions already.

[Raelbo]

Everyone has opinions. LFR removed everything that made raids bad for me: scheduling, job mentality, and having to be fake social. Now I can do it on my own time and don't have to talk to anyone unless I feel like it.

Hehe - in my case LFR removed some of the undesirable/inconvenient/impractical things about real raiding, but at the cost of some good things. It's a trade off and I am 100% fine with that. I regard LFR as a weak substitute for real raiding, but it's a hell of a lot better than no raiding at all.

[Kelimbror]

This is like saying that normal dungeons killed incentives to run heroic dungeons. Why is it that heroic dungeons were doing just fine until Blizzard decided to quit putting them out? By your logic no one should have wanted to run them because they had all done the normal mode versions already.

That's because most people won't come out and admit that they can't flaunt their ego by being the only people wearing epic gear, dominating the auction house, and generally being better than everyone else. In other words, gear is the largest reason people raid. No one will admit it, but even Blizzard understands this is the underlying motivation for playing.

If it wasn't, they would certainly design the game differently. Then there's the fact that Blues (in posts as recent as today) admit as much.

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Hehe - in my case LFR removed some of the undesirable/inconvenient/impractical things about real raiding, but at the cost of some good things. It's a trade off and I am 100% fine with that. I regard LFR as a weak substitute for real raiding, but it's a hell of a lot better than no raiding at all.

And potentially flex raiding is targeted for people just like you. I think it's a great idea, but I'm still going to reserve myself to LFR. After seeing the world without needing people that tend to annoy me anyways, it breathed new life into the game for me. If there were no other content to fill my time with, I'd probably not be satisfied as I would want to tackle higher challenges and achievements.

Thankfully there is too much stuff to do these days, so I can occupy my sense of accomplishment on my own time with many different activities.