[Prot] Fix my Tanking!

[Riemu2k3]

You mean like a new sticky? Or just an addendum to this thread?

But yeah, basically whenever anyone posts logs, first thing I do is go look at armory to make sure they have a clue what they're doing. Then check SS/ShotR uptimes. Then look at fight length and figure out GCD usage and HoPo efficiency. Then can look deeper into CD use and ShotR timing.

I'd actually like to try and "try" this week to have someone pick apart my logs. I know I posted some from like Tortos back in May, and found out that I was wasting lik 8-11% of my GCDs simply from refreshing SS too often (trying to game feather buff!) and the long GCD it and LH produced.

- - - Updated - - -



The boldest part is the most important part of playing a paladin, though.

Not doing that properly means the rest of your logs matter fuck-all, since you're not AMing what you're sposed to. That should be the FIRST step, TBH.

Not sure it needs a new sticky (depends on quality and size I guess). Addendum to this thread should be fine since thats actually where it belongs.

I'm thinking of something grouped up logically a step-by-step "fix my tanking" guide

I mean, the Prot Guides out there are all great and correct

But once you have read them (and understood) your pretty much on youre own. That where we (and this thread) come in. I used to ask alot of questions too (and still do..) since most of the stuff you actually need to know in order to figure out if youre doing things right, are no where to be found. At least not for a new player / new prot tank. You need to actually read this thread intensivly (or ask your questions) to figure that out.

So shouldn't we like create a basic guideline that allows players to actually learn how to?

Basic Sitemap:

- Have you checked the prot guides? (mmo + icy)
- Check your armory if you have/had the right glyphs/talents for the fight/in general
- Basic Things you should be doing / know / check for (SoTR uptime, SS uptime 95%, SS>SoI heals...)
- Advanced Things you should be doing / know / check (CS:J ratio, HP gained/spent)
- Expert Things (gcd available / spent...)
- Survival Analysis / Death Analysis (did you use SoTR at the time you died? any other cd? do you use SoTR with big hits / timed spells (like snapping bite) how good/how often do you time it well?

And most importantly, explain with screenshots. Most people, especially beginners, have a hard time finding the stuff they need to check for on WoL. Especially if its something like log queries (did you have a cd for snapping bites).


I'm not that great with all the math stuff and numbers and stuff.

But I can make some Pictures and write parts of it or sth like that.

Maybe there is like a collaboration feature (external sites? google docs?) where, if people are interested, a guide like that could be compiled and later copied onto these forums

[Deleted]

Btw damn, this forum is updating to fast now, I barely have time to do my archeology. I started writing a reply to arothand when page 63 was pretty new, and it came up as the last post on the page

So much activity, must mean Nairobi is at work.

- - - Updated - - -

- Have you checked the prot guides? (mmo + icy)

Is Icy good now? Havent checked it since like 5.0, remember it was terrible then.

[trystero]

Arothand,

A quick and dirty way to compare whether you're mitigating attacks properly is to look at your average damage taken / hit. So you'd take Horridon and see what your average Triple Puncture is, knowing what's about right for your content (I don't know what 10N takes, as I do 25H and haven't done 10N is months, so I have no idea if 120k average is acceptable, though it sounds OK).

To get a better picture, go into Log Browser and enter this query,

Show events where source or target is Tharando and spell is Shield of the Righteous (remove, copy)
Show events where source or target is Tharando and spell is Triple Puncture (remove, copy)

(You can do it in the expression editor but I prefer the Low Browser as it's easier to build queries imo)

You want to see lines like this:

[20:15:15.423] Tharando gains Shield of the Righteous from Tharando
[20:15:15.432] Tharando casts Shield of the Righteous on Horridon
[20:15:15.557] Tharando Shield of the Righteous Horridon 120837
[20:15:17.171] Horridon casts Triple Puncture on Tharando
[20:15:17.180] Horridon Triple Puncture Tharando Absorb (92343)

Not this,

[20:16:46.915] Tharando's Shield of the Righteous fades from Tharando
[20:16:48.794] Horridon casts Triple Puncture on Tharando
[20:16:48.800] Horridon Triple Puncture Tharando 142517

[20:16:52.155] Tharando's Shield of the Righteous fades from Tharando
[20:16:59.660] Horridon casts Triple Puncture on Tharando
[20:16:59.660] Horridon Triple Puncture Tharando 153022 (A: 3005)

Now on this fight, IMO, too many missed TPs. Like here, danger zone:

[20:19:20.489] Tharando's Shield of the Righteous fades from Tharando
[20:19:20.747] Horridon casts Triple Puncture on Tharando
[20:19:20.790] Horridon Triple Puncture Tharando 197885

[20:19:23.896] Tharando's Shield of the Righteous fades from Tharando
[20:19:31.606] Horridon casts Triple Puncture on Tharando
[20:19:31.648] Horridon Triple Puncture Tharando 213348

You get most of them, but to be honest with timers the way they are, and the way damage presents itself on Horridon (plenty of time to buildup HP, timer is dead on accurate on TP's CD), there's no reason to ever take an unmitigated TP.

[Riemu2k3]

Is Icy good now? Havent checked it since like 5.0, remember it was terrible then.

Yes Icy is good now. They overhauled all their guides when 5.2? was released.

[Nairobi]

Btw damn, this forum is updating to fast now, I barely have time to do my archeology. I started writing a reply to arothand when page 63 was pretty new, and it came up as the last post on the page

So much activity, must mean Nairobi is at work.

Guilty. I like to play a game here and try to keep all of the relavent threads I post in bumped while I'm bored. It's like forum whack-a-mole.

It's hard today!

Is Icy good now? Havent checked it since like 5.0, remember it was terrible then.

I think IV is slightly better than Noxxic/EJ, but TBH I haven't ventured there in ages. I'd wager they're likely quite rudimentary at best, and out of date at worst.

[Nobleshield]

Is Icy good now? Havent checked it since like 5.0, remember it was terrible then.

I know when they revamped their guides they have a thing saying how it's "approved by <insert high-end raider or prominent class guru here>". The Prot Pally stuff is supposedly approved by Theck himself (and other classes by similar people.. for instance the Prot Warrior guide is said to be approved by Sco).

[Deleted]

I know when they revamped their guides they have a thing saying how it's "approved by <insert high-end raider or prominent class guru here>". The Prot Pally stuff is supposedly approved by Theck himself (and other classes by similar people.. for instance the Prot Warrior guide is said to be approved by Sco).

I was told that it was pretty easy to say stuff is approved by people on the internet.

This statement was approved by Abraham Lincoln

[Nairobi]

Also, Tryst is right, in that was the filter and export that I was referring to.

Bear in mind, that last entry looks like a door transition. If/when you have high stacks and are between doors, MAKE SURE you have 3+ HoPo so that you can be spamming ShotR when he gets close to melee range. You CAN (and SHOULD) get ShotR off a hair before he casts TP, making that transition of TP/Melee on first contact FAR less dangerous/deadly.

[Lethora]

For twins, what I did, and what I really advise any tank to do, ignore the beasts of nightmare.

I call bullshit. Seriously. I don't care how good you are, you just can't ignore the debuff. Healers will destroy themselves, since debuff does 30k/sec/stack in 25H. While tank damage intake isn't that much in P1, tank still needs to be healed, period. (I just browsed the log for our latest kill, I covered about 62% healing on myself in P1, but that inculded tank switches. If I didn't swap, I'd take more damage and extra AP from vengeance wouldn't cover the missing healing).
We used to have healer deaths during progression when they occasionally forgot to stop healing the tank that is taking the adds.
So I don't believe you unless you can provide the logs where you solo tanked the first phase.

[Nobleshield]

Also, Tryst is right, in that was the filter and export that I was referring to.

Bear in mind, that last entry looks like a door transition. If/when you have high stacks and are between doors, MAKE SURE you have 3+ HoPo so that you can be spamming ShotR when he gets close to melee range. You CAN (and SHOULD) get ShotR off a hair before he casts TP, making that transition of TP/Melee on first contact FAR less dangerous/deadly.

Yeah, this week we had War God come down before he even smashed the 4th door (I think it was shortly after he reached Door #4) so people were freaking out and it was overall pretty messy. Still, I have some good things to look for so I'm definitely going to try and improve on things.

[Deleted]

I call bullshit. Seriously. I don't care how good you are, you just can't ignore the debuff. Healers will destroy themselves, since debuff does 30k/sec/stack in 25H. While tank damage intake isn't that much in P1, tank still needs to be healed, period. (I just browsed the log for our latest kill, I covered about 62% healing on myself in P1, but that inculded tank switches. If I didn't swap, I'd take more damage and extra AP from vengeance wouldn't cover the missing healing).
We used to have healer deaths during progression when they occasionally forgot to stop healing the tank that is taking the adds.
So I don't believe you unless you can provide the logs where you solo tanked the first phase.

I think you underestimate the 10vs25 man difference.

I am sure it is quite possibly impossible in 25 man, but in 10 man it is not even difficult.

Log in PM. (soon)
Edit: Sent now

[Lethora]

Yeah, your damage taken from the logs is way lower than I expected. I guess 10vs25 is making a huge difference indeed.

[Deleted]

I think you underestimate the 10vs25 man difference.

I am sure it is quite possibly impossible in 25 man, but in 10 man it is not even difficult.

Log in PM. (soon)
Edit: Sent now

Yes idd - in 25s your healers will die. I kill my beasts asap and still get them damn monks I cancel their stupid healing mist buffs on me (pft imo if they don't want me to get the buff then they should stop casting the damned spell...)

[Promdates]

Just for reference, here's your Horridon log with just Triple Puncture applications and Shield of the Righteous applications.

TP vs SotR

It looks like you did miss a few of the SotR casts vs TP.

[20:19:23.896] Tharando's Shield of the Righteous fades from Tharando
[20:19:31.606] Horridon casts Triple Puncture on Tharando
[20:19:31.648] Horridon Triple Puncture Tharando 213348
[20:19:31.648] Tharando afflicted by Triple Puncture (5) from Horridon
[20:19:31.699] Tharando gains Shield of the Righteous from Tharando

Also, don't be afraid to go to higher stacks of Triple Puncture on Horridon. As long as you can make sure you have the buff up before TP is cast, you're good until probably 25-30 on normal and 15-20 on heroic (depending on 10 vs 25).

[Nairobi]

Yeah, your damage taken from the logs is way lower than I expected. I guess 10vs25 is making a huge difference indeed.

It really is quite silly. I can damn near 100% sustain myself in P1 with adds/beast and boss, no swapping. GG 10m.

Also, don't be afraid to go to higher stacks of Triple Puncture on Horridon. As long as you can make sure you have the buff up before TP is cast, you're good until probably 25-30 on normal and 15-20 on heroic (depending on 10 vs 25).

For 10m, you can complete the fight with NO resets PROVIDED that you do what I mentioned above and prepare your anus for the between doors time. If you go from door 3 to 4 (should be ~22 stacks, IIRC) and DON'T have ShotR up, you WILL get stomped upon. After that, it's a joke, since you can just stick on him through the 4th door and grab Jalakk when he drops. Pop HA/AW and win.

We also have had issues with pushing too fast, getting Jalak at the start of the 4th door (messy). We just started letting the Dinomancer heal him a bit.

[Brael]

If only you played on EU servers Tharando, I'd offer you a spot in my guild in seconds after reading through this thread. It's quite refreshing coming across someone who's so motivated to improve themselves in WoW nowadays, it's not a quality I've come across in people in-game or on forums since the beginning of Cataclysm. Give yourself a pat on the back

Looking through our logs from last week I was playing very sloppily, solo tanking Durumu hc and I missed some 5-7 Hard Stares, /ashamed.

Anyways, how do you guys deal with Fan of Flames on Twins heroic when solo tanking it and do you bother trying to reveal adds in phase1 when solo tanking? Just wanting to get tips/tricks for the boss for this week as it should be our 10th heroic boss that goes down. Is the benefit of 1tanking it really that big? I am starting to feel bad for our DK considering the fights that're 1tankable by paladins this tier.

Had some good fun trying the Animus zerg strat last week too, given the time this week we might try it properly since we have myself and a DK tank who can both reset stacks but we'll see how it goes. Or is the zerg strat that much easier?

[Riemu2k3]

Hi Guys,

so - I logged Tortos HC last night.
I was tanking Boss full time, didn't switch Target.

Can you please help me analyze my Log in order to figure the stuff out that I'm doing wrong.

My current rotation just feels wrong with 48,5% Haste. I'm not really used to it / still trying to get used to it.

What's a perfect rotation supposed to look like with that kinda haste?

EDIT: I forgot to reforge for Prot again after Council.. (played Ret).. so ended up with 47.97% Haste instead of 48,5%. But I think I did calculations below with 1.48 anyway so it should be fine. I only had 8% Expertise but I think I didn't miss anything.


Log:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=9292&e=9559


Fight Length: 266 secs according to WoL
--> How accurate is this? Does WoL have a "decay" towards the end? Say like the boss has been dead for 3 sec and it still logs?
--> I was stunned 5x due to Quake Stomp so I subtract 5 secs


SoTR / HP

Holy Power gained + DP Proccs: 56 possible SoTR/WoG
SoTR cast: 55
WoG cast: 1

SoTR Uptime: 61.6 %


CS/J

CS+HOTR:J 72:54 / Ratio is 1.33 thats perfect, right?

CS cd with 48% haste = 3,04 sec?
J cd with 48% haste = 4,05 sec?

261 sec / 3,04 sec = 85,86 CS
261 sec / 4,05 sec = 64,44 J

--> 13,86 CS + 10,44 J that potentially have been lost

--> Thats a total of 24 HP lost / 8 SoTR (x 3 sec uptime) / 24 sec uptime ~~ 9% more Uptime which would bring my SoTR Uptime to 70.6%.

--> How does Bloodlust factor into this? We used it for the 20% burn and Boss died 4 secs after Bloodlust faded.

--> How much does the Burn phase factor into this? You naturally try to use more AS/HOW/AS instead of CS/J (at least I do most of the time).


Spell Overview

HW: 31
CS/HOTR: 72
AS: 26
J: 54
HoW: 7
Cons: 22
---
212 x 1.01 sec (what is my gcd with 48.3% haste) = 214,12 secs


SS: 8
ES: 4
LoH: 1 / that one took me like 1.5sec since i needed to clique my raidframe
---
13 x 1.5 sec = 19,5 sec


AW: 2
WoG: 1
AD: 1
GoAK: 1
Devo: 1
DP: 1
---
7 x 0.5 sec = 3,5 sec
even though its not on the gcd i need to react and i need my fingers to move which is like 0.5sec where i dont press anything else

------------
237,12 sec vs 261 secs // So I lost 23,88 secs worth of gcd

Is that within the margin of error? I mean, nobody is a robot an we actually have moments where we need to think like "ok I wait these 0.2 sec for the judgement to come back".

What are your values? Can you fill all GCD?

How much does Latency figure into all that?

(I think I had a 5sec WoW Freeze in this kill where my harddrive decided to boot up again - but im not 100% sure it was this boss)


Summary

I have no idea if the values I use are correct or how the game handles rounding and stuff.. so please check it extensivly.

Gimme your criticism! Give it to me hard!

[Nobleshield]

If only you played on EU servers Tharando, I'd offer you a spot in my guild in seconds after reading through this thread. It's quite refreshing coming across someone who's so motivated to improve themselves in WoW nowadays, it's not a quality I've come across in people in-game or on forums since the beginning of Cataclysm. Give yourself a pat on the back

Sorry to derail the topic again

Hahaha well, I always like to try my best; I always have, and I only started playing the week before ICC launched so there's a LOT I don't know. I know I'm nowhere near amazingly good, but I try to do the best I can with my own playstyle, even if I've gotten lazy in the past year (I took a 6 month break and came back intending to only play casually, not even on my tank, just the occasional LFR and the like, and my guild kind of begged me to tank again since they were down a tank). Before I started tanking for them, the guild had barely just downed Horridon after weeks of trying, and although it's been a bit slow going we've gone from 2/12 to 11/12 (and hopefully 12/12 soon), so the arrogance in me says that I'm at least partly responsible for that

The biggest thing for me is, and always has been, precise timing. I don't like to watch timers, because then I'm not paying attention to what's on the screen. I don't really trust my healers because I've had bad experiences in Cata when I was tanking on my Warrior (Baleroc springs to mind. Let me tell you it's not fun taking a Decimation Blade and then sitting there counting down the milliseconds until you die from the 2nd swing because your health bar isn't moving at all, and knowing you can't do anything to stop it). I think that's also why I don't push them to 2-heal fights even when they should, I think it would turn out badly (the fact one of our main healers is 12 years old and is often is the first to die doesn't help this, but he's the son of an officer and one of the other healers; the third healer is pretty good). So all I can do is improve myself and post where I can to get evals on other team members that I think are underperforming, and go from there, since I've only really played tanking classes so I'm not that familiar with the others beyond the basics to know what to say to improve. I'm an officer in the guild but I'm not the raid leader (the angry bear tank is) so ultimately none of these things are my calls, but I have more and more people going to my side (especially after the curse-filled ragefest the other night) so if I can just get the other RL skills down I might stage a coup

[Kethmil]

Cons: 22

Trying to do same as you did with one of my logs, but having a hard time trying to figure out how many cons i casted.

Ended building an expression on expression editor like:

spellID = 26573

but for sure there's an easier way of doing it.

How do you do it?

[Nairobi]

Anyways, how do you guys deal with Fan of Flames on Twins heroic when solo tanking it and do you bother trying to reveal adds in phase1 when solo tanking? Just wanting to get tips/tricks for the boss for this week as it should be our 10th heroic boss that goes down. Is the benefit of 1tanking it really that big? I am starting to feel bad for our DK considering the fights that're 1tankable by paladins this tier.

Had some good fun trying the Animus zerg strat last week too, given the time this week we might try it properly since we have myself and a DK tank who can both reset stacks but we'll see how it goes. Or is the zerg strat that much easier?

1tanking Twins was never worth it, to our guild, considering how easy the fight is on 10m. Honestly, if you have Durumu down, I've got no clue why you don't have twins dead...we 2 shot it for our first kill back in May. It really is a joke. We play it safe and just swap on 2 stacks of fan in p2, but you can certainly run up the stacks to scumbag some. Prob doesn't help that you have a DK tank, since their off-tank DPS is pretty poor, but we have to hold DPS in phase 1 to not kill LuLin as it is, so DPS isn't that big of a factor.

We've not done the zerg, since we learned the fight "properly" before ilvl allowed for it and/or it was a well known option, but I'd imagine that if you can stay alive, it is far far easier. We'll liekly try it this week and I can compare better.



@Riemu - This was the same fight that got me to wake up and go "holy shit I suck". I realized that I missed out on like 12/10 CS/J from refreshing SS too often. Even carving down to milliseconds for trying to account for stomps, SS/LH casts, and "i had to move my finger" moments, the fact is that 99% of us simply don't hit buttons fast enough. This isn't something to feel bad about, as unless you are asian, a robot, or an asian robot, you WILL make mistakes. Your numbers look accurate, and I guess that may not be good news, since you're trying to see why you're not at your upper bound. Sure, it looks bad when you say "man I was 5-10% below my theoretical uptime" but you have to look at why.

In this case, it's largely a matter of not hitting buttons fast enough, and/or not hitting them pre-emptively. Also, using things like Devo/LoH/CDs DOES take some non-zero time to execute, even if done during a GCD, which adds up. The big point is this: Knowing what is coming off of CD and hitting that in anticipation will shave off some downtime. In a game of inches, those few milliseconds DO add up. Hitting buttons fast is important, but hitting them in anticipation is what will shave you down further.

I know, personally, that I also cost myself some uptime in favor of damage due to how I prioritize GC-AS over CS as a personal choice. If GC proc's, I will give that spell precedence over CS, even if CS is off CD, so that I don't potentially "waste" a GC proc from that CS. This will all change in 5.4, but it does push me back some now.