Raiding.

[Deleted]

About raiding.
Does anyone believe that we're gonna have an increase within Normal/Heroic difficulty population in the next Patch, or even in the next expansion seeying the Major changes we had ?
Despite the Amazing raid that we currently are less and less people are willing to do any fight in normal at least mode..
But simply wonder does anyone believe we're gonna reach a higher appealing number of raider's within next patch or simply a downfall without an end?

Rather 2 say in less than 2 Year's we have ended from 90 raiding guild's to 3 raiding guild's and from last week to 2 raiding guild.
I tried other server that atm is in 1 patch from 24 raiding guild to still 14 raiding guilds. And the guild that i was casualy raiding i no longer raiding.

[Halicia]

I expect we'll see a decline in Normal raiders, but more of a decline in LFR raiders.

Normal raids are simply too complex mechanics-wise for Normal players. People with experience raiding may not have an issue with it, but its a catch 22, Raids have been too difficult this expac for new players to GET experience raiding, so there's less players able to raid, and consequently, its harder for new players to even get carried and get experience raiding.

LFR in DS performed well at showing people the mechanics they would see in Normal, but they abandoned that training aspect immediately in favor of "3 loot pinatas with different shapes".

I *hope* flexraids will introduce more players to 'organized raiding' and pull them away from LFR, but its also likely to draw many people away from Normal raids as well. I doubt anyone currently doing Heroic raids will even take notice of flexraids, except as a way to trial new recruits or goof off with their reallife friends/tradepugs.

Once connected realms hits (and the resulting higher 'server' populations), there should be a significant rise in Normal and Heroic RAIDING guilds, simply because there's more players whose schedules/personalities now match up.

There may also be a higher then usual bump in players to normal/heroic raiding in the next non-raid patch (assuming there is one) as guilds that were focusing on flexraid try for bigger things. (we can dream, right ?)

[kamuimac]

We will see decline in normal and rise in FR - people will just switch to it - normal is just overtuned for general crowd - its fun and chalenging for long time raiders but for rest its just simply to hard - even if people who raid in good guilds find it extremly easy -_- - partial thing to blame is lack of catch up dungeons - one can say that lfr and hc scenarios fill this rols but its not true - in dungeons u could catch up with gear in a week - in lfr etc it take at least a month if not 2 months - and people can say things like buy crafted gear bla bla bla - they forget about one thing - people who come back from break usually dont have 100k gold to blow up just to buy all crafted gear in 1 week - and they just cba cause with each week the differnece between someone who is fresh after a break and plays all the time is just growing larger and larger - gear requirements while recruiting to team are also growing fast - and im not talking about hc raiding guild which could just gear up new recruit if they want relatively fast but those who are progressing through normals and are loosing raiders on weekly basis due to people jumping up to higher progress guidls which cannibalize the weaker guilds and then they cry they have noone to recruit from

[Seriss]

We will see decline in normal and rise in FR - people will just switch to it - normal is just overtuned for general crowd - its fun and chalenging for long time raiders but for rest its just simply to hard - even if people who raid in good guilds find it extremly easy -_-

The problem is that many people don't understand the difference between

A. a boss is easy
and
B. I'm outgearing a boss by 20 ilvls

and then they start to whine that things are too easy.

The difficulty of a new raid is ridiculously dependent on how well your guild did during the previous content (exception being the first raiding tier of an expansion, and that was, as we all have seen, filled with cockblocks and gating mechanisms for the average non-hardcore WoW player).

If you killed enough heroic bosses in the outdated raid, the gear alone makes it easier when you venture into the shiny new raid. And if a guild barely managed to clear previous content, they're bound to have problems in the current raid tier. Most WoW players aren't Paragon who clear raids while undergeared, making up for the lack of gear with an abundance of skill and ideal line-ups.

I think, sooner than later, normal mode will just be what you switch to when you don't want to try a boss on heroic yet. Many normal mode guilds will downgrade to flex for convenience and being able to not have to bench someone. Because when a guild isn't striving for Ahead of the Curve and such, that's the most fun thing to do. No stressing about line-ups, no stressing about benching anyone. Just fun with just enough challenge for it to feel rewarding. And no stressing about with a normal mode that feels like you're trying a heroic boss, just because you don't have ilvl 515 but only 490 (see Horridon when ToT was new).

As an afterthought... Would it be a realistic scenario for a flex-raid bunch of people to say after a few weeks "we got some gear now, ilvls are decent, let's try normal mode and get Ahead of the Curve?" Flex could be an awesome catch-up mechanism too so that people could get into normals with way less frustration!

[Nobleshield]

I feel that Flex will take off and be a great idea, possibly one of the best ideas Blizzard has come up with. However, I think we will see a decline of Normal raiders as most people will probably say screw it and go to Flex instead, where mechanics are more forgiving and as an added bonus they can bring ALL their guildmates and friends who want to go, not pick and choose who sits and who gets to raid.

I have this sinking feeling that Normal and Heroic will be the domain of "hardcore raiders" only (normal being the stepping stone ofc), with everyone else doing LFR and/or Flex. I mean, Flex is pretty much the perfect solution except for the LFR stigma associated with it and the LFR style loot (even though that's understandable), so why bother with normal at all except if you plan to do heroic? Flex gives you the best of both worlds: A social environment (lacking from LFR) and a more laid back approach so you can bring that not-so-good player that everyone likes but wipes the raid accidentally, and so you don't have to bench people. If there was some way to have a real loot system for Flex, I could see it replacing normal mode entirely.

[Calaba]

TBH, I can see Flex doing for 10normal, what equal item level in 10normal did for 25normal.

The number of guilds running 10normal will rapidly drop off due to player churn and recruitment issues, and they'll just go to flex raids as a backup plan, but never really be bothered to start normal modes again, they'll just fill their roster to 25 and not switch back. Those that are inclined to do 10man normal will rapidly clear it (due to high gear level from flex), and then start on heroics instead.

But the real difference I think we'll notice is people will stop doing LFR nearly as much - the only reason many do LFR is that currently the normals are far too much bother to PUG with alts. That, and tier loot (tbh should be removed / different set bonuses for each difficulty). Flex mode should fix both of these issues.

[Rauken]

There is also the issue of
"Oh, you don't have the Achievement? Sorry, We cant invite you"
How can we get experience if we can only get into pugs if we have previously done it
The community is Toxic

[slime]

Should see a slight spike for a month or two because it is totally new raiding content, but a serious drop shortly thereafter. I say for 2 reasons, one it's the current trend, two because of the introduction to another sub-normal raiding difficulty.

[Morros]

Why not do away with Normal 10/25 all together?

LFR - 25man
Flex - 10man -25man
Heroic - 10man or 25man


Seems like it would clean up a lot of what seems to be a clusterfuck when looking at raid modes, and it would reign in the huge ilvl gap per tier of content.

Edit: Hell I bet they could make normal and heroic difficulties both work with the Flex feature.

[Deleted]

Edit: Hell I bet they could make normal and heroic difficulties both work with the Flex feature.

No, that will never ever happen. It is just not possible.

I think the better cleanup in the clusterfuck we got now would be removing LFR, flex is great, flex is what LFR should have been from the start, I feel like now that flex is here, lfr serve no function.

[Shahad]

No, that will never ever happen. It is just not possible.

I think the better cleanup in the clusterfuck we got now would be removing LFR, flex is great, flex is what LFR should have been from the start, I feel like now that flex is here, lfr serve no function.

True that.

With Flex there, coupled with connected realms, there just isn't a reason for LFR to exist. Not to mention that it would help ilvl inflation.

[Seriss]

No, that will never ever happen. It is just not possible.

I think the better cleanup in the clusterfuck we got now would be removing LFR, flex is great, flex is what LFR should have been from the start, I feel like now that flex is here, lfr serve no function.

I could actually see that happen. Not in MoP because it would be too much of a cut in the middle of an expansion. But for next expansion when everything is under evaluation again, I find it a realistic scenario that we'd have Flex - normal - heroic. Fewer difficulties would actually bother me because normal and heroic already share an id, and once you do heroic, you don't just set it on normal for achievements again without feeling like you're missing out (and I'm sick of wasting an ID for achievements or just having to have achievements sit there until the content is outdated). And that's what flex is cool for when you're a heroic raider. And normal modes are good for people who want a bit of a challenge but not as much as heroic is, and heroic raiders need a difficulty to switch to when they decide to not do the next boss on heroic next but the one after that.

[Deleted]

I love the idea of Flex mode, everyone I know looks forward for it. I mean, the lower difficulty makes it so much easier to pug. Cause even with people who have 12/12 Normal exp, I continue to see extremely poor performance - so poor that it causes wipes. With Flex mode it's easier to say "hey you don't have the experience we'd like but what the heck, it's only Flex mode".

But with Flex mode implemented, I don't see any good excuse for LFR to stay. Regardless what side you're on (casual vs. hardcore) in that debate, I think we can all agree, that the atmosphere in LFR is horrible and it completely lack the social part that raiding is supposed to give you.

And if LFR was removed in the next expansion and more guilds went Flex mode rather than struggle with Normal mode, we'd hopefully see more people raiding again (and no, LFR is not raiding). Which would lead to a larger pool of players to recruit from.

[Venant]

I would support removing LFR if they were to implement a match making system the way they do with other battle.net games like starcraft where you could basically find a flex raid to join at any time you want. Heck maybe they should just steal a bunch of ideas from their other games, like how loot works in diablo and their ladder systems, so then you could in theory raid all of the time and constantly be improving your character.

[Bryce]

No. And to the people who are saying normal have too many complex mechanics, what are you smoking? Normal is fine, it's for the people who aren't up for the heroic raiding. Normal is easy. LFR is the joke afk difficulty and Flex is just going to be another raid lockout that heroic raiders will run to get every advantage there is.

Leave it like it is or do away with LFR. Flex is LFR basically.

So, it'd be;

Flex
Normal 10 & 25
Heroic 10 & 25

[Deleted]

LFR in DS performed well at showing people the mechanics they would see in Normal, but they abandoned that training aspect immediately in favor of "3 loot pinatas with different shapes".

DS LFR was waaaaay easier than any of the MoP LFRs. The only reason it served to give people a good taste of DS is because DS was a joke and I should know as I was a wet behind the ears nub during ds and still managed to kill 7/8 HC (admittedly with 20-25% nerf).

Elegon, Garalon, Durumu, Lei Shen

These four fights are harder in their LFR state than DS normal ever was.

- - - Updated - - -

I would support removing LFR if they were to implement a match making system the way they do with other battle.net games like starcraft where you could basically find a flex raid to join at any time you want. Heck maybe they should just steal a bunch of ideas from their other games, like how loot works in diablo and their ladder systems, so then you could in theory raid all of the time and constantly be improving your character.

So matchmaking flex? Which would result in so many wipes that it'd end up being nerfed. I think they have a name for that already *lfr*

Plus I'm not sure how it would decide how many people to group you with between 10 and 25. Would it stop when you have enough healers and tanks? Or would it just be set to 25 but people can leave? Oh no that's LFR again :P

[Kraineth]

DS LFR was waaaaay easier than any of the MoP LFRs. The only reason it served to give people a good taste of DS is because DS was a joke and I should know as I was a wet behind the ears nub during ds and still managed to kill 7/8 HC (admittedly with 20-25% nerf).

Elegon, Garalon, Durumu, Lei Shen

These four fights are harder in their LFR state than DS normal ever was.

Because DS LFR had people who knew what was going on and people listened. People didn't have the same mentality about DS LFR that they do about MoP LFR. People no longer respect the encounters like they did during DS. The four fights you mentioned are a joke on lfr, people just don't care to listen. The first week LFR Lei Shen was out I went with some guildies for trinkets since they hadn't dropped on normal and we one-shot him, because people didn't think he was a joke and they listened to us.

The only 2 problems that LFR has is people not being accountable for their actions since it is cross realm matchmaking, and the fact that it has been out for long enough that people have lost respect for the encounter's as a whole. Durumu is a good example of what flex ought to be, a relatively easy mode that you can wipe if people don't understand the basics of the fight. I wish LFR hadn't been as dumbed down as it is. By the time durumu wipe-fests came along, it was already too ingrained into people's heads that LFR is faceroll, and too late to make a difference


I'd also like to know how you killed heroic spine and didn't kill the joke that was heroic madness?

[restling]

so how is LFR this days?

[Deleted]

I would support removing LFR if they were to implement a match making system the way they do with other battle.net games like starcraft where you could basically find a flex raid to join at any time you want. Heck maybe they should just steal a bunch of ideas from their other games, like how loot works in diablo and their ladder systems, so then you could in theory raid all of the time and constantly be improving your character.

So you want even easier access to raiding? What about just putting in the minimal effort and finding a pug yourself? I don't see the need for yet another queue button, it does nothing but serve the lazy.

On top of that you'd lose some of the social aspect that Flex can bring. Cause if you're just going to be put together with x random players, you might as well stick to LFR. No, it's not hard to find a pug, unless you're on a dead server - in which case you have the option of transferring. And with the realms being kinda "merged" via the feature, even low pop realms should be okay in terms of finding other players.

[Deleted]

About raiding.
Does anyone believe that we're gonna have an increase within Normal/Heroic difficulty population in the next Patch, or even in the next expansion seeying the Major changes we had ?
Despite the Amazing raid that we currently are less and less people are willing to do any fight in normal at least mode..
But simply wonder does anyone believe we're gonna reach a higher appealing number of raider's within next patch or simply a downfall without an end?

Rather 2 say in less than 2 Year's we have ended from 90 raiding guild's to 3 raiding guild's and from last week to 2 raiding guild.
I tried other server that atm is in 1 patch from 24 raiding guild to still 14 raiding guilds. And the guild that i was casualy raiding i no longer raiding.

I think that normal mpode guilds will largely have to make a choice - go flexi or go HC. Normal will be a very tough sell on it's own - if you've got 13 online and decide to leave 3 of them out of the evenings raiding, there had better be some ultimate reward for them or they will leave. So that is going to mean HC loot and HC encounters to offer. I cant see many people resign themselves to hovering in org without a raid for the evening just for normal mode loot at some later point.

So, i expect to see the numbers of normal guilds to drop enormously as they split into a large amount of flexi guilds with a small number going HC. In a few months, the number of HC guilds will then start to decline. I also expect to see the number of 25 man (flexi) guilds to increase, as the way flexi works it's easy to slowly increase the roster of your raid over time.

Flexi just has so much more to offer the average raider over the other two modes, it's hard to see it not eventually dominating the game.